[Br0k3nW1ng3d]

I am trying to wrap my mind around the difference between the 2. My recent stunt in the hospital challenged my diagnosis with having BPD added. The psychiatrist tried to explain that BPD may fall within the Bipolar spectrum which only made me more confused. All I know is that I feel more broken than ever, though I am trying to keep busy and positive. Does anyone have any information or good sources to read explaining the difference/relationship between the 2?

[Secretum]

BPD and bipolar II with ultradian cycling have many similarities, including rapid mood shifts, depression, and irritability. The main differences between them that I've heard of are that BPD mood swings are triggered, while bipolar mood swings can happen for no reason, and that bipolar mood swings include euphoria, while BPD people cycle through bad moods only.

This is the most useful article I've seen on the topic: http://www.psycheducation.org/depression/borderline.htm

I also live in Madison normally; I'm a UW student. This semester, however, I'm studying abroad in Italy.

[Br0k3nW1ng3d]

the hard part is that i have both things going on at the same time. maybe I really am both.

Originally Posted by Br0k3nW1ng3d

the hard part is that i have both things going on at the same time. maybe I really am both.

i suffer with both also.

it's hard.

(((((hugs))))

[cocoabeans]

From my understanding when I was diagnosed bipolar for oh? The third time maybe? The psychiatrist openly discussed considering borderline and determine I was not because I don't have rage or destructive relationship/abandonment issues, my crazy behavior is not all the time and always go along with a mood and my mood swings last weeks or months rarely ever days and never only hours with long periods of perfectly normal mood in between. Oh, and I haven't a clue what feeling empty even means, with the exception of being on celexa and lamictal, so chronic emptiness? Yea, right! I'm me.

So is it sometimes or all the time?

[faerie_moon_x]

It's very possible to have both. They do mimic each other, really. BPD also has some major relationship aspects to it that aren't necessarilyi there with bipolar.

One of the best things a person with BPD ever said to me to help me get the difference is that with her, she lives an "I love you, I hate you, don't leave me!" life. So it's like being super clingy while pushing people away at the same time, and this inability to relate properly in relationships causes her to have dramatic mood shifts.

My psychologist had talked to me a bit about the possability of being BPD, because I do have some abandoment issues, due to my mom dying when I was a kid. But, the reason I lost my friends was because they were the ones who were toxic and left me, I didn't cut them out, they cut me out. My first marriage failed most likely due to me having gotten married while manic to begin with. And, my relationship with my husband is as stable as an untreated person with bipolar and one with untreated ADD person can be.

Try taking this quiz and see how the results come out:
http://psychcentral.com/quizzes/borderline.htm

[Moose72]

When I sad hospitalized they tried to suggest I had BPD but my pdoc and T talked it over and decided I'm just no 1. It can get confusing though!

Some big ones...
** Idealization/devaluation, which is seeing others as super perfect (on a pedestal) or terrible -- periodically switching from one to the other. Like d_h said, the "I love you!, I hate you!, Don't leave me!". I think they call it "splitting". It's a combination of "black and white thinking" along with abandonment issues.

**Issues are ongoing and pervasive (one's regular pattern of thoughts and interactions), as opposed to happening only during mood episodes.

** Chronic feelings of emptiness. And having a hard time feeling loved and worthwhile when alone -- without someone there to reassure. Damn. There is a name for that, but I can't remember it atm.

**There is a big tendency to do things that push people away, ironically most often with those one seeks to have love them. They say is comes with feelings like, "they're going to leave me anyway... everyone always does". It's almost like a test too...pushing boundaries...seeing how far they'll go to prove their love... "if you cared enough you'd...". The person on the other side would probably finish that sentence, "be able to read your mind.", because of receiving such mixed signals. Like.... saying, "leave me alone!", while actually wanting them to come to you.

**I think this one's based in abandonment issues and the difficulty feeling someone's love when they're not there. An observation... Say someone doesn't call back right away. The immediate thought is one of personal rejection. This tends to lead to calling many times over. Seeking reassurance is my guess (frantic efforts to avoid real and imagined abandonment). Also a tendency to "read between the lines" for negative meaning where none is intended by the other party (transient paranoia).

The page right here at PC is quite informative:
http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/sym...lity-disorder/

There has been talk of renaming it to Emotional Regulation Disorder. Pretty apt, as there is a tendency to feel ruled by one's very intense emotions and feelings.

I don't have it , in fact it perplexes the hell out of me. But I've been reading up because I live on the other side of this. Now that I know what's going on, I better understand the behaviors. Before that, wow, was I confused.

[emptyspace]

Borderline is a personality disorder. Ingrained from early on, shaped by early life experiences. Medication can not "fix it." Medication can help with the symptoms.
People with BPD react to others and their mood changes according to how they view people at the instance. Moods can shift in a second.

For example:

• If their therapist doesn't return their phone call, most BPD freak out, usually act-out in rage or self-harm. They don't think about all the other wonderful things their therapists have done. In the instant, they feel abandon and lash out.

Mood is dictated by someone else's behavior that the BPD person perceived as hurtful.

• If their boyfriend is late, they feel abandoned and yell and scream at their boyfriend or blame themselves degrading themselves and thus hurt themselves somehow.

• Therapists or anyone in a BPD persons world can go from being on a pedestal and the best thing in the world.... to being devalued and hated within minutes.

**Their moods are triggered by perceived hurts!

Ever hear "walking on eggshells"... that is what it is like to be close to someone with BPD. Do one thing wrong and watch out. Goto the Psychotherapy board and read the BPD people who post about their therapists and you will see the behaviors. They tend to treat people like ****, unless they get help. BPD disorder patients tend to be very self-centered, want to be special, break boundaries, devalue people, etc.
Moods tend to be short-lasting. For example, boyfriend apologizes and brings back flowers, mood is better. Therapist calls the next day, apologizes for not returning the call and the Borderline's life is better.


Bipolar disorder is a mood disorder. Our mood episodes *could be* triggered by an event, but in most cases, it is our brain chemistry that causes a mood episode.

We don't react with crazy mood swings to perceived hurts from people.
Unless you are rapid-cycling, our moods tend to be longer lasting. Depression lasts for weeks or months, not a day or an hour. Mania lasts for weeks.

Last summer I had a manic episode. Within a week of the mania ending, I fell into a depressed episode that lasted 3 months. Nothing happened, but brain chemistry.

If my therapist doesn't call me back, I don't act-out and rage and have a mood episode. I think about and integrate all the other great things my therapist has done and realize she is busy. It doesn't change my view of her and I don't feel abandoned, where I HATE her and act out in anger and then fall into deep despair. Mood is not driven by our interaction and perception of others.

There was some discussion a couple years ago about whether people were being diagnosed BP 2 to avoid the stigma of BPD. But the reality is, the behaviors of a BPD patient are hallmark.

[Secretum]

They tend to treat people like ****, unless they get help. BPD disorder patients tend to be very self-centered, want to be special, break boundaries, devalue people, etc.

You can't put people into boxes, saying that all borderlines are like this. I have met many quality people on this forum who have borderline. They haven't treated me like ****, or seemed especially self-centered,or devalued me or others.

It's not a black-and-white issue. There is a tremendous stigma surrounding BPD because people talk about borderlines the way that you just did.

There aren't clear borderlines (haha, pun) between bipolar and BPD. Some people with bipolar have rapidly changing moods. Some people with BPD experience mood swings for no reason. Some people have both conditions. Some borderlines are misdiagnosed as bipolar, while some of us bipolar bears are misdiagnosed as borderline.

In textbooks, yes, it is easy to tell someone with BPD apart from someone with bipolar. In reality...not so much. And borderlines aren't nearly as horrible as textbooks make them out to be. Their "bad" behavior is no more under their control than our "bad" behavior; i.e. some people with BPD can't control their overreaction to perceived abandonment any better than some bipolar people can control their overspending or hypersexuality during mania.

And for the record, no, I've never been diagnosed with BPD. I take this issue personally, however, because I know what it is like to be discriminated against and seen as a "monster". I know how much that hurts. No one deserves that.

[emptyspace]

Don't make this about "discriminating against" or "stigmatizing" a diagnosis. I basically summarized what is well known and documented by many practitioners and by the literature, not just text books. The disorders are biologically different and the behaviors are driven by different reasons. If there were not patterns and characteristics that were similar there could not be a "diagnosis."

Of course we are not talking about "Everyone" but the characteristics that are associated with the diagnosis are well documented. The behaviors are part of the diagnosis... just as a binging and purging behaviors are associated with the diagnosis of certain eating disorders.

Even Dr. Jon of PC writes about "borderline" behaviors:

"They experience intense abandonment fears and inappropriate anger, even when faced with a realistic separation or when there are unavoidable changes in plans. For instance, becoming very angry with someone for being a few minutes late or having to cancel a lunch date."

"People with borderline personality disorder may idealize potential caregivers or lovers at the first or second meeting, demand to spend a lot of time together, and share the most intimate details early in a relationship. However, they may switch quickly from idealizing other people to devaluing them, feeling that the other person does not care enough, does not give enough, is not “there” enough. These individuals can empathize with and nurture other people, but only with the expectation that the other person will “be there” in return to meet their own needs on demand."

"These individuals are prone to sudden and dramatic shifts in their view of others, who may alternately be seen as beneficient supports or as cruelly punitive." Such shifts other reflect disillusionment with a caregiver whose nurturing qualities had been idealized or whose rejection or abandonment is expected.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/sym...lity-disorder/

"Individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder frequently express inappropriate, intense anger or have difficulty controlling their anger. They may display extreme sarcasm, enduring bitterness, or verbal outbursts. The anger is often elicited when a caregiver or lover is seen as neglectful, withholding, uncaring, or abandoning."
Individuals with Borderline Personality Disorder may display affective instability that is due to a marked reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days). The basic dysphoric mood of those with Borderline Personality Disorder is often disrupted by periods of anger, panic, or despair and is rarely relieved by periods of well-being or satisfaction. These episodes may reflect the individual’s extreme reactivity to interpersonal stresses.

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/cha...lity-disorder/

Many professionals are turned-off by working with people with this disorder, because it draws on many negative feelings from the clinician. These occur because of the client’s constant demands on a clinician, the constant suicidal gestures, thoughts, and behaviors, and the possibility of self-mutiliating behavior. These are sometimes very difficult items for a therapist to understand and work with.

Because people with this disorder often try and “test the limits” of the therapist or professional when in treatment, proper and well-defined boundaries of your relationship with the client need to be carefully explained at the onset of therapy

http://psychcentral.com/lib/2007/bor...der-treatment/


And your comment about "their behavior being more under their control than ours" is actually not supportive of people with BPD.
That basically says they have a choice in how they act, and they make the choice to continuously act poorly (breaking boundaries, devaluing people, etc). Most BPD would argue against this, saying that their behaviors are uncontrollable because their feelings are so extreme.

[BlueInanna]

My pdoc told me it is very difficult sometimes to differentiate the two. She also said she's seen an epidemic among teens that doesn't seem to fit precisely in either category but "treatment is the same" / take these meds. It is confusing.

[Anika.]

I don't know, people always say they are so similar, however outside of the mood issues I am just not seeing it from my own experience only I am speaking of
I don't have the symtpoms that come with borderline, outside of mood issues. I am not particularly irritable, angry, bitter, or have outburts. I don't value and then devalue, don't have abandonmemt issues etc.

To me they look quite different. Especially on the relationship end of things. I don't see why people can't easily have both.

[mirandakennedy]

I had been diagnosed with Bipolar NOS last year. I wasn't happy with my doctor so I went to a new one. He says I am Borderline Personality Disorder even though I have none of the symptoms I have seen online.

I started seeing a psychiatrist last year who after only seeing me for ten minutes said I was bi-polar even though I had no manic episodes. I never saw him again even though I stayed with his practice for a year. I saw A PHRN who was pretty good. I had gone in for anxiety and depression. I was diagnosed with ADD. I had some issues with getting told that the doctor didn't want to do something and I found it not acceptable for someone who had barely seen me to make any decisions about my care.

So I tried another doctor this week. He spent to hours with me asking questions but seem to more interested in the questions than the answers. After the two hours, he suggests that I have PTSD (which is likely) and Borderline Personality Disorder which after researching is not likely. I don't have displays of anger. I am very tolerant of being alone. I actually prefer it. I have no B&W thinking and I don't idealize people. I am no more sensitive to rejection than anyone else. I am in PR and Sales, 80% of my job is rejection. I have been interviewing for a new FT job for years so I don't fall apart or get angry at rejection.
I don't view the world as a bad or dangerous place nor do I look at people in a B&W view. I never idealize anyone. My actions do not have to have immediate rewards. I don't believe that if I am treated badly that I am bad. I have of abandonment. I already had a group of people who I thought were my friends bail and I am totally ok with it. I do feel sad, empty and hopeless sometime. I used to have self injury and suicidal behavior but no cutting for over a year and now SA since 2006. I am not uncertain about my identity I do like to shop but I never spend money I don't have. I am not impulsive with sex and I don't drive so risky driving for me.

I had a crappy childhood and some other crappy things happen to me. Most not my fault but some are. I used to dwell on them and feel like a victim. Not anymore. I had finally got to a place where I didn't feel like I was damaged. 2 hours with this doctor this week, the damage feelings all came back.

I believe this doctor is completely wrong and am trying to figure out my next steps.

[BipolaRNurse]

I just took the BPD quiz and couldn't BE less borderline. Never really knew much about it, just like I didn't know squat about bipolar until after I was diagnosed with it. But I've never felt empty in my life, and I don't have the unstable relationship/love-hate/abandonment issues, which isn't necessarily reassuring because bipolar sucks just as bad in its own way.

[BlueInanna]

I have some of the bpd traits, but not the history of childhood trauma usually associated. Which would make it genetic in me. Fascinating yet confusing and hopeless feeling. I have long lasting relationships, but view myself as highly sensitive and somewhat have the love/hate problems. I will push him away a lot, (more like i isolate) but he keeps coming back... I'm really not a textbook case for either one, but my dx is bpII with add.

[newtus]

Originally Posted by emptyspace

Ever hear "walking on eggshells"... that is what it is like to be close to someone with BPD. Do one thing wrong and watch out. Goto the Psychotherapy board and read the BPD people who post about their therapists and you will see the behaviors. They tend to treat people like ****, unless they get help. BPD disorder patients tend to be very self-centered, want to be special, break boundaries, devalue people, etc.
Moods tend to be short-lasting. For example, boyfriend apologizes and brings back flowers, mood is better. Therapist calls the next day, apologizes for not returning the call and the Borderline's life is better.

i never knew what it really was until i had a boyfriend with this. i never understood him and still dont. but this does sum him up even if it doesnt everyone else. he would get mad at me for no reason and never would tell me why. then call me text me back in the middle of the night or next morning and be so happy. afterwhile i was really scared of his moods. it wasnt about his general mood it was really about the relationship. although once he did say he would do what he did sometimes because he didnt want to lose me. we had prob broken up and got back on at least..hm..15 times? or around there. and so i said "if you dont want to lose me WHY do you say that stuff to me?" and just so you know he has said some of the most awful things to me - at times cursing and blaming me for how bad the relationship was. he would always say "i love you so much. im just so sorry im just scared. lets not ever fight again. lets renew this". ugh and i believed it every single time. partially cause i was young and naive.

im not BPD or bipolar. i have schizophrenia. but i loved him very much. that was his way of dealing with people. MY way was and still is isolating myself. near the end of so many break ups i would isolate myself from him 6-7 months at a time. i really did love him. he was my first love. dated him from 13 yrs til 17yrs of age. i went through hell with him. and while i recognize my faults now - the relationship did not do well mostly because of him. he knows this. he said sometimes he couldnt stand him. he would isolate too. not much - and usually to get back at me. and then come out from hiding a week later sending 6-7 texts at a time with a story about how much he loved me.

but when i would isolate hed stalk me around online because he HAD to know what i was up to and if i was talking about him. even making a name on a forum and talking to me.

it was def def crazy for me.
he did this with all his friends.
when i talked to him at college age he would tell me hed goto clubs and pick up people and do various inappropriate things/one night stands/drugs/etc. so much more stuff. and from reviewing all of the time i knew him everything seemed to revolved around him trying to find love somewhere for himself. relationships were a big thing to him and he would brag about diff people he dated and then say how over them he was a few days later.

he was also gay.
when i dated him he was bisexual. so. yea.