I in no way doubt my diagnosis of 'health anxiety' and panic disorder - they just 'feel right' to me and I totally relate to all aspects/symptoms etc.

I have also been tentatively diagnosed with BP 2 or BP NOS when I was 15, 17, 21, 25, 28 etc. Over the years I was prescribed depakote, lithium, abilify, and lamictal, but I've never taken any of them - obviously, I'm afraid of the side effects (!) - but more than this, I feel they may not be 'worth it' because the diagnosis has never felt totally right to me.

I moved a few months ago and just saw a new psychiatrist in town today. After our meeting, he agreed with me that it's really unclear whether I am somewhere 'on the BP spectrum,' or if my mood swings etc. are rather a combination of being an obsessive/creative person + anxiety + traits of BPD. I definitely experience mood swings - highs and lows - but it's much 'messier' than 'normal' 'manic' 'depressed.' More like just having really thin skin, so everything affects me greatly, whether good or bad. Like there is no stable ground ever, but rather I'm constantly having to put in an effort to hold myself/world together. I get incredibly excited and inspired by writing and working on projects, which leads to the sort of 'hypomanic' state (sleeping less, eating less, racing thoughts), and then when I inevitably get confused, burnt out, or overwhelmed, it all comes crashing down and I instantly start thinking about suicide. I work all the time so I wouldn't even know what a mood separated from my work would look like.

As far as BPD, I don't relate at all to the 'chronic emptiness', fears of abandonment, or the kind of manipulative behavior I (perhaps unfairly) associate with BPD. Though I enter relationships impulsively and idealize the person, I don't have 'stormy' romances (though I would definitely say I DID when I was younger). I also don't tend to have angry outbursts or interpersonal conflict...I'm considered outgoing and easy to get along with...people don't 'walk on eggshells' around me (though the past is another story). Then again, as my psychiatrist pointed out, I've made it to 30 without having a full blown manic episode, which seems to suggest a more personality-based issue. at the same time again though, he won't have me take anything above 25 mg of zoloft for fear of inducing another hypomania...

I know labels don't really matter, especially if, at this point, I don't plan on taking any BP-specific meds, but I'm just sort of interested in the relationship between the two and what other people's experiences are like. It seems like bp 2 and BPD are really difficult to tell apart, especially when severe anxiety is in the mix (which, for me, is associated with months-long depressions).

Would love to hear your thoughts / personal experiences!

The "thin skin" part seems BPD.

[Imah]

I struggled with understanding the difference between these two also. I have been told repeatedly that I have BP - but then about 2 years ago my therapist suggested I also have BPD. Well, that was new information which I rebelled against. I thought I was defined, now I had something new!

This is what I understood about the 2.

1. BP just comes out on its own.
2. BPD is caused by something happening.

1. BP can be helped with medication - talk therapy may or may not be needed depending on person.
2. BPD - talk therapy, and DBT are common treatments - drugs are not mandatory although common.

1. BP is something that a person could conceivably have their entire life - it is a brain thing.
2. BPD can be gotten over with time and therapy.

I am not a Dr. This is my understanding of some of the differences.

The whole no manic episode until your 30 thing is false. I didn't have my first 'true' manic episode until I was 34. Before that I had some hypomanic episodes but was always more on the anxiety/depressive/OCD side.
From what you wrote it sounds a lot more like BP2 than BPD. If you are able to have healthy interpersonal relationships and don't manipulate people I don't see where your doc is getting that diagnosis.

[gina_re]

Lately I've been thinking I have BPD. According to the tests here on PC I likely do have it ha! But in all seriousness, I thought that was the diagnosis I should've had when I started having these mental issues when I was 20. The first psychologist I saw at the time did not agree. But from looking back over my life and where I am at now, I still feel that way.

"I definitely experience mood swings - highs and lows - but it's much 'messier' than 'normal' 'manic' 'depressed.' More like just having really thin skin, so everything affects me greatly, whether good or bad. Like there is no stable ground ever, but rather I'm constantly having to put in an effort to hold myself/world together."

This is me. Of course having bipolar would involve mood swings. But I felt as though sometimes they were short lived. Like I would be extremely upset, pissed off ready to punch you in the face type of anger. Then a few hours later I've calmed down and I'm back to normal as if nothing happened. All in one day. And it wouldn't be over something that serious. I just didn't like what you said and/or how you said it to me.

"As far as BPD, I don't relate at all to the 'chronic emptiness', fears of abandonment, or the kind of manipulative behavior I (perhaps unfairly) associate with BPD. Though I enter relationships impulsively and idealize the person, I don't have 'stormy' romances (though I would definitely say I DID when I was younger). I also don't tend to have angry outbursts or interpersonal conflict...I'm considered outgoing and easy to get along with...people don't 'walk on eggshells' around me (though the past is another story)."

This is me again. I go through those feelings of emptiness, I think I'm sort of in one right now. I feel somewhat void of emotion and not interested in anything anymore. If someone doesn't talk to me as often as I think he/she should, I feel like he/she doesn't care about me anymore. They hate me and don't want anything to do with me anymore. I know intellectually that is not the case, but my emotions get the better of me and I believe it is true. I sometimes end relationships over this unnecessarily. I did so about a month ago. I have entered two romantic relationships on impulse. I moved in with each one only after dating a few weeks, maybe a month. After that initial honeymoon phase, it turned chaotic. I don't know why, but I do feel most of it was my fault for being mad about something unnecessarily. But I couldn't help it at the time. I was also unmedicated and my moods were really intense then. They both lasted barely a year.
And I think people do walk on eggshells around me. At my last job, most of the guys eventually became either irritated with me and ignored me or just gave me plenty of space because they knew I could blow at any second.

But then I think the BP is there because I have had some hypomanic and definitely some depressed episodes. A lot of these started back in adolescence and got worse as I entered young adulthood. I've had issues all this time of self hate, and I'm hoping this is something the therapist can help me with. I've destroyed many relationships when I look back over nothing but my mood swings. I only have a handful of close friends which I only talk to on occasion. I've been hurt so much I put up a wall to not let anybody else in to hurt me again, so I can only get so close to someone.

Originally Posted by jupiter3

The whole no manic episode until your 30 thing is false. I didn't have my first 'true' manic episode until I was 34. Before that I had some hypomanic episodes but was always more on the anxiety/depressive/OCD side.
From what you wrote it sounds a lot more like BP2 than BPD. If you are able to have healthy interpersonal relationships and don't manipulate people I don't see where your doc is getting that diagnosis.

yeah this seemed weird to me...because I thought if you were BP 2 then you wouldn't have a full blown manic episode ever, by definition. I'm moody but it isn't about other people, I've only ever lashed out in extreme ways when I was a teenager or when I was having some kind of episode, but it's not my everyday state of being. I treat people well. I'm good friends with all of my exes, and in fact my only 'fallouts' have been with people I think have BPD(!).
But it does seem unusual that I've "survived" this long without ever taking a mood stabilizer. Maybe cyclothymia and really bad anxiety (?)

He said that i probably met the criteria for BPD as a teenager but then grew out of it, so wouldn't be diagnosed today, just have 'traits.' but these 'traits' seem so similar to BP to me?!?! he also said a mild form of BP is likely, but that it's too hard to tell because of anxiety/personality. I'm left with "Mood Disorder NOS" on my chart, which actually feels sort of 'right' to me.

Originally Posted by gina_re

Lately I've been thinking I have BPD. According to the tests here on PC I likely do have it ha! But in all seriousness, I thought that was the diagnosis I should've had when I started having these mental issues when I was 20. The first psychologist I saw at the time did not agree. But from looking back over my life and where I am at now, I still feel that way.


This is me. Of course having bipolar would involve mood swings. But I felt as though sometimes they were short lived. Like I would be extremely upset, pissed off ready to punch you in the face type of anger. Then a few hours later I've calmed down and I'm back to normal as if nothing happened. All in one day. And it wouldn't be over something that serious. I just didn't like what you said and/or how you said it to me.


This is me again. I go through those feelings of emptiness, I think I'm sort of in one right now. I feel somewhat void of emotion and not interested in anything anymore. If someone doesn't talk to me as often as I think he/she should, I feel like he/she doesn't care about me anymore. They hate me and don't want anything to do with me anymore. I know intellectually that is not the case, but my emotions get the better of me and I believe it is true. I sometimes end relationships over this unnecessarily. I did so about a month ago. I have entered two romantic relationships on impulse. I moved in with each one only after dating a few weeks, maybe a month. After that initial honeymoon phase, it turned chaotic. I don't know why, but I do feel most of it was my fault for being mad about something unnecessarily. But I couldn't help it at the time. I was also unmedicated and my moods were really intense then. They both lasted barely a year.
And I think people do walk on eggshells around me. At my last job, most of the guys eventually became either irritated with me and ignored me or just gave me plenty of space because they knew I could blow at any second.

But then I think the BP is there because I have had some hypomanic and definitely some depressed episodes. A lot of these started back in adolescence and got worse as I entered young adulthood. I've had issues all this time of self hate, and I'm hoping this is something the therapist can help me with. I've destroyed many relationships when I look back over nothing but my mood swings. I only have a handful of close friends which I only talk to on occasion. I've been hurt so much I put up a wall to not let anybody else in to hurt me again, so I can only get so close to someone.

Sorry you've had such a rough time in the romance/friendship department (though you seem very self-aware and committed to getting better - which is so hard when you feel like crap!)

I can see why you might think there is some BPD mixed in with your BP. But also, could your feelings of emptiness be depression? And could your rage also be associated with a BP episode? Or do you feel these aspects of your experience are actually part of your personality? I definitely feel empty/void of emotion when depressed, but this seems really different from feeling like there is a 'hole' or huge question mark where one's self-identity would be.

I really really like this guy's website in general, and he wrote a little bit on BP vs. BPD:

Bipolar Disorder and ?Borderline Personality Disorder? | PsychEducation

[gina_re]

Originally Posted by thepterodactyl

Sorry you've had such a rough time in the romance/friendship department (though you seem very self-aware and committed to getting better - which is so hard when you feel like crap!)

I can see why you might think there is some BPD mixed in with your BP. But also, could your feelings of emptiness be depression? And could your rage also be associated with a BP episode? Or do you feel these aspects of your experience are actually part of your personality? I definitely feel empty/void of emotion when depressed, but this seems really different from feeling like there is a 'hole' or huge question mark where one's self-identity would be.

I really really like this guy's website in general, and he wrote a little bit on BP vs. BPD:

Bipolar Disorder and ?Borderline Personality Disorder? | PsychEducation

Thank you for the article! It really can be difficult to separate the two and the older I get, the better I get in recognizing symptoms, but I know I shouldn't self-diagnose as well. The reason I believe I can fit some of the traits is because I have had those intense mood swings within hours and/or one day. It was pre-medication, and I pissed a lot of people off. My feelings of emptiness are always there, but become more intense when I'm depressed. I just don't know where I fit in in life. My cocktail numbs that so I don't "hear" it as loudly compared to when I'm depressed. The rage I've felt in the past are reactions to something someone has done or said to me that I did not like or agree with. As far as romantic relationships, I do have a tendency to think my boyfriend at the time is the best person I've ever met and do my absolute best to please him. But as we get comfortable, chaos is the norm and I can't stand the site of him. I don't speak to any of my exes because of how the relationships ended. And recently, I had made friends with some people I was hospitalized with. Yeah we all had our issues, but we still clicked and I thought it was so cool that they would be my friend. They were so pretty and outgoing, I couldn't understand why they would even talk to me. But when I stopped getting replies to my texts messages, I thought they hated me and we're ignoring me. They're feelings weren't genuine to me. I cussed them out and blocked their numbers so I could not be contacted anymore. That was completely unnecessary, but my emotions had me believe it was. Two more relationships gone for no reason. I used to be so impulsive (which I know is a trait of both), I had bought and traded in three cars within three years "just because." My hypo mania can lasts for weeks and tends to euphoric. I'm drinking and partying, spending money I know I shouldn't be and having sex when I shouldn't be. But I tend to swing more to the depressed side that the hypomania side. The hospitalizations are from those episodes. I've often felt as though my life on earth is a waste from the age of 13. That void has yet to be filled. I have everything I want that I worked hard for, but I still don't even care. I feel empty the majority of the time. And because I've pushed so many people away, it just emphasizes it.

[Trippin2.0]

Not all borderlines act out by manipulating and attacking everyone.


You may want to read up on the Quiet Borderline, it may or may not be informative.


For the record, I am not manipulative, I'm likeable, easy to get along with and have excellent relationships, the turmoil regarding them is all internal.


Well except for my BF, that was external for a while, but mostly because I was still traumatized from my ex.

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Not all borderlines act out by manipulating and attacking everyone.


You may want to read up on the Quiet Borderline, it may or may not be informative.


For the record, I am not manipulative, I'm likeable, easy to get along with and have excellent relationships, the turmoil regarding them is all internal.


Well except for my BF, that was external for a while, but mostly because I was still traumatized from my ex.

Thank you for the suggestion, and I hope I didn't offend you...I think what I should have emphasized instead is that my moods, whether I hold them in/let them affect others or not, do not arise from interpersonal issues/relationships. In other words, I'm not 'triggered' by other people, at least not in a direct or obvious way. I mean, when I was cheated on - yes, I freaked out. But I don't think I'm extra sensitive to the way others treat me in general...my 'thin skin' pertains more to things like external and internal stimuli, if that makes sense. I tend to get really low/agitated when I'm either sick or stressed about work - in those cases I would say my response is way over the top, but when someone disappoints me, or I have a fight with someone, I can manage pretty well (unless of course I'm already depressed or really anxious). I guess I feel like it's more of an 'existential' feeling of vulnerability...I get 'high' and then severely let down by my own mind more than by others. I'm not sure if that really means anything as far as BP vs. BPD though...but when I think of BPD, since it is about personality, it seems that the symptoms should be present pretty much all the time, and that just isn't the case at all for me.

[gina_re]

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Not all borderlines act out by manipulating and attacking everyone.


You may want to read up on the Quiet Borderline, it may or may not be informative.


For the record, I am not manipulative, I'm likeable, easy to get along with and have excellent relationships, the turmoil regarding them is all internal.


Well except for my BF, that was external for a while, but mostly because I was still traumatized from my ex.

I didn't mean to offend as well. I just have these internal struggles based on how I interpret the situation for as long as I can remember.

[Trippin2.0]

Don't worry guys, I'm not easily offended.


Just thought I'd offer a different angle you may want to look into.

Originally Posted by Trippin2.0

Don't worry guys, I'm not easily offended.


Just thought I'd offer a different angle you may want to look into.

Trippin, I noticed you have both BP2 and BPD and are not on meds. What do you do to keep it all together? Also, I'm curious what your most troublesome symptoms are?

[Trippin2.0]

What do I do?


Everything I can think of, and then some. If I run out of ideas for coping skills, I ask a friend. I'm currently seeing a T and attend weekly DBT, so that helps alot.


If all else fails, I just allow myself to fall apart. Sometimes the only way back up is to start from zero.


Most troublesome, well that's complicated....


Depression hits me the hardest, but my warped BPD thought patterns bother me most often.

I always have to be on guard for them and I've become very good at countering bad thoughts with good ones. Sort of like trying to override my brain's default setting.


If depression kick starts my mental negativity engine, which then revs up my obsessive thoughts / imagery, that's when my BPD kicks into full gear and I feel nuttier than a damn fruit loop!


I'm very self aware though, so alot of the time I can untangle what's happening and deal with the actual issue before it sets off the aforementioned chain reaction.


For the BP I have safety nets and a support structure in place, for the BPD I have reality checks available by either a very close friend, my bf or my BPD evidence box. ( tangible stuff I can see and touch that counters the negativity in my head)


If all else fails and my brain threatens to explode I am a firm believer in the reboot method.


A mini coma and my brain has time to reset. Doesn't solve my problems, but helps me see things more rationally.


I'm not against meds though, PRN would suit me, but hard to find a free state pdoc willing to go that route.

[RomanJames2014]

My therapist hinted at BPD because I was having issues with death in my life but I don't have BPD. My dr said its bipolar. I know this because my moods have no correlation to my relationships and I have experienced full blown hypo manic and manic episodes. When some one has BPD, they don't experience that full blown mania. I also didn't fear abandonment. My therapist kept drifting toward BPD with everything I said.
I kind of felt as if he was going to believe I had BPD no matter what.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[LorrieTorrie]

Lately I've had a hard time differentiating between the two. I made an appointment next week to discuss things further with my pdoc, and then that's it. I'm going to stop obsessing. Either or, I know I have to get my life back in order. That has to be my main priority. I tend to obsess about both, and It's become unhealthy. Whatever my pdoc says I will accept and move on. He's already diagnosed me with bipolar I with psychosis, so maybe I don't even need to discuss it anymore. The psychosis aspect alone may be enough, because I don't think that's symptomatic of BPD.

[lost2bipolar]

Its so odd that I want to know all of you personally

[Trippin2.0]

Well I don't think its odd at all!

[Victoria'smom]

Trippin' can you get meds and only take them as prn's?

[Trippin2.0]

Only benzo's.


My T is looking into setting me up with a new pdoc though, maybe they'll be open minded.

Who knows?