[Naynay99]

Well of course, where else would mental illness lie than in the brain, so I suppose in that sense it is. But I mean- what if there isn't really anything wrong with me except that I suck at life and am crappy at coping woith stress?? What if all of this healing that psychiatry is doing is actually making me sicker??

Sorry this is just a dumb rant by me bc the longer I am a psych patient the more it all seems like utter bullshat. I have to take medication to prevent an episode. But wait- why am I still having episodes on meds? They are now the wrong meds? What are the right ones? Did they stop working or would I have been well just as long w/ no meds bc they are as effective as eating pez candy and weren't actually doing anything? This is the crap that keeps me up at night. What if for me the cure is worse than the disease...

Im starting to realize just how much I don't believe in modern psychiatry anymore. A giant diagnostic bible with questionable science that seems to exist more for insurance company coding than for actual healing. I believe there is mental suffering but maybe it shouldn't be so medicalized and put us into neat little boxes based on subjective measures of symptoms. I know some people have found great relief from science and medication and all and I am not disputing that. But how we go about this whole dx and treatment of MI right now just seems completely fuucked.

I question when somebody is put on an antidepressant and gets manic and suddenly they are no longer just depressed but dx bipolar. I have had pdocs try to say that the BP was always there lurking and that if you weren't BP you wouldn't have that reaction to ADs. But what if the depression cure is the bipolar disease causing agent? Am I still bipolar then? I mean would I still be considered bipolar if acting manic after doing a crapload of meth? I doubt it.

anyway this is a pointless rant bc I can't sleep. I just wonder if 30 years from now society will look back at this era of psychiatry with horror and ask what they were thinking. I love how supportive everyone at my dbsa support group is. But at my group I have heaRd those same compassionate people suddenly become the paychiatry shaming police as soon as someone mentions not taking medication. and that pisses me off to no end.

When somebody claimed to have been led free and stable for years w/o an episode they were told that they must have just been in remission during that time. And if when they did get sick again it was like "see I told you so". Yet when someone on meds who was stable for years and then has an episode while on meds, it is always that the medication had kept them well all those years and now stopped working. Maybe it never did shiit and they would have gotten sick the same amount of times. You can't test it bc if you stop a med and have symptoms return that becomes proof that you need the med- even tho withdrawal can cause the same symptoms as an episode.

Anyway I am probably talking completely out of my arse here and if so I apologize profusely. I am just feeling rather fed up with it all. Medications and pdocs and T and bears oh my. Too much collateral damamge with too little science to back it up. I hope there are major changes in the field of brain disorders and mental illness in the near future bc i think we can do better than this.

[jacky8807]

Well you are completely right. About everything.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

[sub-dural]

When somebody claimed to have been led free and stable for years w/o an episode they were told that they must have just been in remission during that time. And if when they did get sick again it was like "see I told you so". Yet when someone on meds who was stable for years and then has an episode while on meds, it is always that the medication had kept them well all those years and now stopped working. Maybe it never did shiit and they would have gotten sick the same amount of times.

This part I think is because of society's shaming of mentally ill people in the media not taking their meds and that is why they committed [insert horrible act here]. People are essentially brainwashed by all of these forces and you are either condemned for not taking your meds and condoned when the meds "work" and now you are a zombie. I've explained to others who feel the need to drop into their conversation, "well s/he stopped taking their meds or something" that the kind of meds that society expects mentally ill people to take are extremely toxic. They wreck havoc on an individuals lives (more often then not, especially when people are after the holy grail of the "right cocktail") through weight gain, sedation, cognitive impairments, loss of libido, anhedonia.

I'm not saying this to justify taking meds or not taking meds. If you take meds and they work for you, that is great. If you don't take meds and it works for you, great. But I think what OP is getting at with the last part is people on a pedestal who do everything they are told by their psychiatrist and doctors and point fingers at those of us who heavily question the science and function of the realm of psychiatry.

I'm struggling recently with taking meds again. When I was diagnosed at 26, I told the psychiatrist he was full of sh--, this whole "umbrella" of diagnosing and a "spectrum" just allows big pharma to sell more drugs to more people.

I have long held the belief that anti-depressants and psychotropic drugs are intended only for a short amount of time. Get someone out of their bed and back in life, help that person get involved in alternatives to antidepressants (yoga, exercise, meditation,therapy, work, etc), and get them off of the drugs. But no, now these are lifelong afflictions and we have to be judged by society on whether or not we are taking our drugs, like we are children who are not completing their homework and need to be talked down to and told what to do.

I am currently in a full blown mania at the moment and that is due to arthritis medicine. Don't even get me started on that one. I saw my psych doctor on Friday because I'm feeling like my brain is going to explode. So he handed over the typical recipe, a mood stabilizer, an antipsychotic, and a benzo prn. But then, I just feel so resentful of the whole thing. I have to medicate myself with these effed up medications because I was taking another medication for another illness? And now I have to go off of the arthritis med and probably not be eligible for anymore in that class of medication.

Rant back at you. Take it easy, you seem to be on my wavelength - it's refreshing.

[SparkySmart]

Whoa. I have exactly the same thoughts daily... I've thoroughly read the works of at least three "anti-psychiatry" authors whose writings support your ideas, and once I asked my pdoc how he was able to sleep at night, knowing what he was doing to his patients' brains. I struggle all the time with this.

My overriding fear is this: I'm afraid of ultimately standing in judgment for my behavior. "Well, yes, I DID do/say these awful things, but you DO realize I was bipolar, right?" "No excuses, please."

OTOH, deep inside, I know that my extreme mood states and frantic swings have been spontaneous, unrelated to circumstances, and certainly not a result of unfinished business from any past or present unresolved trauma (I had an awesome childhood!). Most often, my outbursts have brought unwanted and negative attention, so it's not as if there's any reward.

[Tryingtobehappy5]

Every dose of my medication I wonder if its worth another pill. I was tormented before I started meds, that's the reason I finally gave in and asked for help. But I am even more tormented by my mind on these shot in the dark substances they are putting me on. Combinations of 8 different drugs in the last year and all it has gotten me is a lot of time in a psych ward.

My hope for sustainable relief from depression is wearing very thin and my belief in psychiatry was barely there when I started. This scientific "guessing game" is ridiculous

[Northchild]

I think that our hopes and expectations of psychiatry and psychiatric treatment are often unrealistic.

1. There is no cure for many psychiatric illnesses.
2. Modern medical treatment for psychiatric illness often carries a price that is very high.
3. There is no magic physical "scan" that can confirm the presence of a psychiatric illness.
4. Even though intelligent people with a great deal of education and experience have attempted to standardize the classification of psychiatric illnesses, the laymen in one society can see things differently from the laymen in another society, and even within any given society there can be a divisions based on culture and other factors.
5. The chemistry of the human brain is one of, if not the most complex things about ourselves that we've ever tried to mess with. And, make no mistake here, the work that we've done in this area is still in its infancy.

Given all of this and more stuff that I've doubtlessly overlooked... I'd say that our doctors are generally doing a pretty good job.

Naynay99, one "thing" that marks healthy thinking persons are that they ask questions! So in that way you are very healthy.

To your questions: Many bipolar persons that are misdiagnosed as uni-polar and given antidepressants become manic. The antidepressant triggered their first episode. When you first have become bipolar, that is a diagnose for life. But none says it has to be full blooming all the time. You might also have normal times in between. It is not a question about remission or not. To have the bipolar diagnose means that there for many are four possible states: depressed, manic, mixed and the "state" we call "normal". Medication can work for some time and then stop working. Some people can manage to be off medication for some time, but the disorder is chronic in nature. It might come back. One never knows when a person has had it's last episode.


Your chances for living well with your bipolar disorder is affected by:

1) your cooperation with your doctor. Remember it is you who have MI, not your doctor (he may be a well functioning doctor on medication for the same diagnose, thou, because such a diagnose affects people in every age and in every type of work, but if so that is his problem and not yours). There may be many trials before they find the right combo of meds for you. (If you don't feel well with your doc, please find another one). It is right that doctors may earn well by giving medication, but for many medications are necessary to be able to function at all. If one wants to try without medication that should be in cooperation with one's pdock. Bipolar is a chronic disease.

2) I would have asked for a therapist to talk to if I were you (in addition to the medication)!

3) What you yourself can do to make your life as a person with bipolar disorder more easy:
a) monitor your states
b) learn your triggers so that you can avoid them or at least make them milder.
c) live a regular life with set hours for meals, physical exercises, go to bed time and so on.

Self-help book:
"The Bipolar Workbook, Second Edition: Tools for Controlling Your Mood Swings 2nd Edition" by Monica Ramirez Basco (Author)

Hope you find your personal way to cope and live well with your bipolar disorder!

[WildcatVet]

Originally Posted by Northchild

I think that our hopes and expectations of psychiatry and psychiatric treatment are often unrealistic.

1. There is no cure for many psychiatric illnesses.
2. Modern medical treatment for psychiatric illness often carries a price that is very high.
3. There is no magic physical "scan" that can confirm the presence of a psychiatric illness.
4. Even though intelligent people with a great deal of education and experience have attempted to standardize the classification of psychiatric illnesses, the laymen in one society can see things differently from the laymen in another society, and even within any given society there can be a divisions based on culture and other factors.
5. The chemistry of the human brain is one of, if not the most complex things about ourselves that we've ever tried to mess with. And, make no mistake here, the work that we've done in this area is still in its infancy.

Given all of this and more stuff that I've doubtlessly overlooked... I'd say that our doctors are generally doing a pretty good job.

This has to be one of the most brilliant and rational comments I've ever read, NorthChild...!!!

[Nammu]

Is anything real?

[SparkySmart]

I appreciate what Northchild has to say (as well as all the other posters). I DO think our doctors are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and I feel certain that their motivations are benevolent. I mean, why would they have chosen to practice medicine otherwise?

This may be a little off-topic, but I have another concern regarding following doctors' orders in a specialty that's so subjective. It seems to me that everyone works closely with their pdocs to carefully tweak their cocktails (hate that word -- makes me think of bourbon). Maybe it's just MY pdoc, but he probably sees 200 patients a week. I seriously question whether he even remembers me from appointment to appointment -- not that I don't try to be as witty and personable as possible, but for the 10 minutes I see him every month he's mostly typing anyway so it's not like we're engaged in any kind of "therapeutic alliance." I think it's this relationship (or lack thereof) that causes me to question the whole system as well as the medicalization of common human emotions.

Some months ago, I left a message for him asking that he call me. "I'm not treating you on the phone," he stated; "my recommendation is that, if you feel your meds need to be adjusted, you should present to the ER immediately." "I appreciate your recommendation but don't feel that my symptoms warrant that kind of action," I said. "Well, I've made my recommendation and you've decided to ignore it, so I can't be responsible for the outcome," he replied.

Just kind of frustrated these days and feeling chemically challenged.

[Northchild]

Hmm. Sounds like your psychiatrist is either lacking in bedside manner, focusing on covering his own *** (legally) or both. Anyone else in the area that you could see?

[liveforsummer]

Thank you for this thread Naynay99. It is a fascinating dialogue and I appreciate the responses I’m reading here.

[sub-dural]

Originally Posted by SparkySmart

I appreciate what Northchild has to say (as well as all the other posters). I DO think our doctors are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and I feel certain that their motivations are benevolent. I mean, why would they have chosen to practice medicine otherwise?

This may be a little off-topic, but I have another concern regarding following doctors' orders in a specialty that's so subjective. It seems to me that everyone works closely with their pdocs to carefully tweak their cocktails (hate that word -- makes me think of bourbon). Maybe it's just MY pdoc, but he probably sees 200 patients a week. I seriously question whether he even remembers me from appointment to appointment -- not that I don't try to be as witty and personable as possible, but for the 10 minutes I see him every month he's mostly typing anyway so it's not like we're engaged in any kind of "therapeutic alliance." I think it's this relationship (or lack thereof) that causes me to question the whole system as well as the medicalization of common human emotions.

Some months ago, I left a message for him asking that he call me. "I'm not treating you on the phone," he stated; "my recommendation is that, if you feel your meds need to be adjusted, you should present to the ER immediately." "I appreciate your recommendation but don't feel that my symptoms warrant that kind of action," I said. "Well, I've made my recommendation and you've decided to ignore it, so I can't be responsible for the outcome," he replied.

Just kind of frustrated these days and feeling chemically challenged.

Just anecdotal --
This summer my psychiatrist who I hadn't seen in about a year called me and he just asked how I was doing and that if I ever needed anything to feel free to call him anytime.

I started becoming manic about a month ago and it wasn't until about a week ago I recognized that was what was happening as I've only ever experienced "hypomanias." I called him, he called back with an appt a few days later.

I get there - an old victorian house converted to offices, the opposite of a doctors office - and he pulls out a poorly folded piece of yellow steno pad paper with coffee stains on it.

"is that my medical record?!" I asked.. Yep, it was.

He is the third psych doctor I've seen in my 10 years of dealing with my brain. I have a huge tendency to ere to the side of anti-psychiatry due to poor circumstances with doctors in the past, but this guy is a game-changer for me. I know I can ask to come off meds, change meds, ask "why,".. And he understands a rational amount of paranoia and skepticism to his profession, without telling me I'm being psychotic and delusional and putting it on some permanent computer medical record.

I think everyone needs to find their version of this psych doctor and the process becomes one of comfortable discovery and easier challenges.

[Naynay99]

Thanks for the responses and suggestions and encouragement. Is always helpful to hear many different sides to an issue.
I agree that most pdocs are doing the best they can with the small arsenal they have to treat this but that doesn't mean that they are not unintentionally making things worse in the long run. It is not my intent to become some anti psychiatry crusader or get rid of all psych meds. I am a mess. Don't follow me, I'm lost too...

I just wonder if any of it is really helping me enough to warrant the high coto my body and psyche. Maybe I would have been better off never having gotten a dx in the first place. Or maybe I would be dead by now. Both scenarios are equally possible.
I know there are no easy or palatable answers to my queries, which is frustrating and scary but I feel like we need to ask the hard and uncomfortable questions even if we don't like the answers or there are no answers. I'm done searching for some magic bullet pill to fix me. I know i am a little fuucked up. I am also smart and feel like I should be able to do better at living than I am.

I wonder maybe this is it- I should just accept that I will always struggle in life and should try to just enjoy and celebrate the successes and good stuff and endure the shiit. Then i think FIUCK THAT. Im not going quietly.

Anyway I realise i am a little all over the place and apologise for my verbosity. I don't really know what to do in re to getting treatment for my mood disorder anymore. I once tried to see a new pdoc and when I mentioned I was sonsiderinj going off meds after a long stability the dr basically said if I wasn't gonna take meds there was no point in continuing to see him. Ugh.

I wish I didn't have so much experience with shiity drs, or that I got better after my first or fourth medication. But it took 3 years of being a guinea pig to get my current "coqtail" of lamictal and Wellbutrin and I don't know if they actually even work anymore.

Anyway, have a good nite. I'm about to leave work and head home. Tired. I only got like 2 1/2 hrs sleep last night bc my brain wouldn't turn off.
Have a good night.

Originally Posted by SparkySmart

"I appreciate your recommendation but don't feel that my symptoms warrant that kind of action," I said. "Well, I've made my recommendation and you've decided to ignore it, so I can't be responsible for the outcome," he replied.

Just kind of frustrated these days and feeling chemically challenged.

Hear you, but:

You have to remember that health personnel have to prove what they have done. Patients may accuse doctors for not treating them well enough according to the APA; the recommended standards. Every doctor has to behave in a way that will not give him juridical problems.

I don't mean to hurt you or make you sad, but I think that your doctor acted inside an acceptable frame (he safeguarded himself).

May be you should ask to be referred to a talking therapist (psychologist). Then you will get another form of treatment in addition to your medication.

I think it is important that we who suffer from some form of emotional disorder, educate ourselves in the disorder/-s and ask for treatment that we think may benefit us. I know that insurances are different in what they cover. My point is only that we ourselves have to use the little energy we have to be able to participate. We can write down what medication helped or not helped, how long we used them and so on.

Doctors are different. Some make us feel very little (even if that is not their intention). May be you can talk to your GP about your situation and hopefully that can help you to sort "things" out.

I know I make it sound easy. It isn't! That is why we need forums like these so that we can discuss things and perhaps help each other to see our options in a clearer light. I feel that these forums are very important to me, like some sort of lifeline when life is too hard.

All the best!

[Northchild]

I hope you're able to get some sleep tonight.

[noneedtoknow]

Originally Posted by SparkySmart

I appreciate what Northchild has to say (as well as all the other posters). I DO think our doctors are doing the best they can under the circumstances, and I feel certain that their motivations are benevolent. I mean, why would they have chosen to practice medicine otherwise?

This may be a little off-topic, but I have another concern regarding following doctors' orders in a specialty that's so subjective. It seems to me that everyone works closely with their pdocs to carefully tweak their cocktails (hate that word -- makes me think of bourbon). Maybe it's just MY pdoc, but he probably sees 200 patients a week. I seriously question whether he even remembers me from appointment to appointment -- not that I don't try to be as witty and personable as possible, but for the 10 minutes I see him every month he's mostly typing anyway so it's not like we're engaged in any kind of "therapeutic alliance." I think it's this relationship (or lack thereof) that causes me to question the whole system as well as the medicalization of common human emotions.

Some months ago, I left a message for him asking that he call me. "I'm not treating you on the phone," he stated; "my recommendation is that, if you feel your meds need to be adjusted, you should present to the ER immediately." "I appreciate your recommendation but don't feel that my symptoms warrant that kind of action," I said. "Well, I've made my recommendation and you've decided to ignore it, so I can't be responsible for the outcome," he replied.

Just kind of frustrated these days and feeling chemically challenged.

Wow, your PCP doesn't have much leaway with his response. does he? I guess there was more to your story i.e did you talk about needing a med adjustment and then he couldn't fit you into his schedule and that was the best he could do at the time was have you seen in the ER as you were pretty unstable?? I guess, if you don't mind sharing, if we could get a little more of the picture? Or maybe you just don't want to go there. That's ok. Maybe not necessary. Sorry to hear you are frustrated and chemically challenged.

[noneedtoknow]

YUP!!!!!

Originally Posted by Naynay99

.

Anyway I realise i am a little all over the place and apologise for my verbosity.

You don't have to apologize for that! We all have our problems and all problems are OK to talk about!

I wish you well!

Originally Posted by Naynay99

I wonder maybe this is it- I should just accept that I will always struggle in life and should try to just enjoy and celebrate the successes and good stuff and endure the shiit.

That is not a stupid idea! To accept that life more or less will be a struggle might be helpful because in between all the struggles there is good "things" to enjoy! There will also in the deepest struggle be some lights in life that we shouldn't miss!

[wiretwister]

I have no advice or guidence for anyone ...having said that .. I trust my pdoc .. he sees an issue with me that needs addressed ... we sometimes fight over the best drug or path ... but when all is said and done ... I know he has my best interest in mind ... I wonder everyday if I am or if I need this stuff ... but every T or Pdoc I have ever met all say the same thing .. sometimes in the first meeting ... so for now ... Tigger is 90% complient ... fading off into the distance ...

[Pookyl]

Just to throw another random thought into the mix. (Sorry in advance if it doesn't make sense -I'm a bit off.)
I was born with medical issues and have continued to acquire new ones over the years at a steady pace.
All are now 'chronic' in nature or 'in remission' depending on how you look at it.
I often wonder if it's all in my head because I've gone as long as 10yrs in between acute flare ups. If one doesn't feel sick then is one sick?
A specialist once said to me "yes you are. You're the oldest living person in this country with your medical issues".
Yay me. For some reason I found that statement depressing.

[SparkySmart]

Originally Posted by Northchild

Hmm. Sounds like your psychiatrist is either lacking in bedside manner, focusing on covering his own *** (legally) or both. Anyone else in the area that you could see?

I live in a rural area, and this is the closest pdoc for miles around. It's a 2-hour drive (one way) to see him. He's covering his bases, understandably; I can't blame him. I think this is what med-check psychiatry has come to, sadly. He doesn't remember me from appointment to appointment and doesn't have the time or inclination to ask what's going on or engage in any banter... If I'm doing badly enough to call in the first place, he wants to do an in-person assessment and likely admit. I think his schedule just doesn't permit any more personal involvement than this.

This reinforces my suspicion/fear that we're really alone in all this, other than the support networks we build around us...like this website, for instance.

[SparkySmart]

Originally Posted by Singer47

Hear you, but:

You have to remember that health personnel have to prove what they have done. Patients may accuse doctors for not treating them well enough according to the APA; the recommended standards. Every doctor has to behave in a way that will not give him juridical problems.

I don't mean to hurt you or make you sad, but I think that your doctor acted inside an acceptable frame (he safeguarded himself).

May be you should ask to be referred to a talking therapist (psychologist). Then you will get another form of treatment in addition to your medication.

I think it is important that we who suffer from some form of emotional disorder, educate ourselves in the disorder/-s and ask for treatment that we think may benefit us. I know that insurances are different in what they cover. My point is only that we ourselves have to use the little energy we have to be able to participate. We can write down what medication helped or not helped, how long we used them and so on.

Doctors are different. Some make us feel very little (even if that is not their intention). May be you can talk to your GP about your situation and hopefully that can help you to sort "things" out.

I know I make it sound easy. It isn't! That is why we need forums like these so that we can discuss things and perhaps help each other to see our options in a clearer light. I feel that these forums are very important to me, like some sort of lifeline when life is too hard.

All the best!

Thanks for all your comments! I agree w/you that docs must protect themselves and are probably acting responsibly when they declare themselves to be not accountable in the face of nonadherence (i.e., not reporting to the ER). I'm not a high-maintenance patient -- and I'm knowledgeable about bipolar issues -- so honestly, when I feel that med adjustments are warranted, I just take matters into my own hands. I know this is risky, and I don't recommend it, but I don't see my pdoc being even superficially involved or eager to supervise gentle titrations/tapers, and feeling over-or-undermedicated is simply unacceptable.