[Mapleton]

So... I'm not BPD, but I do have a suggestion to go to DBT group, because T thinks it would be really suitable. Im posting here because I figured you guys would probably have the most experience.

I've been reading, and have found a pretty complete workbook, which effectively lays out everything in DBT.

I do have one observation, though. Isn't this all, largely, about distraction? Isn't "radical acceptance" just a significant form of distraction, bordering on self-delusion?

One place "FAST" says you should have standards, but radical acceptance says you should effectively negate those standards if you have a crisis.

1. This sounds suspiciously like ********
2. What the hell is the point of just endlessly accepting negative situations and crisis, by deflection? especially when past experience is such a good (not infallible but better than anything else) predictor of future experience.

[H3rmit]

I'm interested in your question. I don't know the answer. I hope some other people have comments.

I thought it sounds like buddhist concept of surrender. Sure enough that analogy is made in some of the articles I googled. Still curious what people have to say, though. I'm not a buddhist, just familiar with some of the ideas.

[Luvmydog]

Originally Posted by Mapleton

One place "FAST" says you should have standards, but radical acceptance says you should effectively negate those standards if you have a crisis.

1. This sounds suspiciously like ********
2. What the hell is the point of just endlessly accepting negative situations and crisis, by deflection? especially when past experience is such a good (not infallible but better than anything else) predictor of future experience.

I am not in DBT, but have been diagnosed with BPD. Your points would be valid as long as you don't have a skewed view of past experiences. I know that for me, at least, I can take two totally separate and unrelated events and see a cause and effect relationship of those events. In this type of thinking, I could miss the actual cause of the crisis or situation. This could make me believe that X would certainly recur, if I did Y, and make me avoid doing what may be a healthy activity.

[shortandcute]

1. It's true that we do need standards. But sometimes we have "skewed" standards because of bad experiences--and those "standards" are often coping skills that we needed to survive but ended up turning into bad habits or defects.

2. Accpetance doesn't mean you just lay down and let a bad situation run you over. There's a saying that goes: "life is tough; as soon as you accept that, it no longer is." That doesn't mean you ignore your problems; but if you accept a situation instead of ignoring or fighting it, you can cope with it much better. For me, it's easier to figure out what to do in a crises when I accpet it instead of fighting it or ignoring it.

3. And, no, the past is not always a predictor of the future.

[Mapleton]

Originally Posted by shortandcute

1. It's true that we do need standards. But sometimes we have "skewed" standards because of bad experiences--and those "standards" are often coping skills that we needed to survive but ended up turning into bad habits or defects.

Agreed. The standards I'm thinking of aren't cognitive distortions. They are simply things that other people would take for granted.

2. Accpetance doesn't mean you just lay down and let a bad situation run you over. There's a saying that goes: "life is tough; as soon as you accept that, it no longer is." That doesn't mean you ignore your problems; but if you accept a situation instead of ignoring or fighting it, you can cope with it much better. For me, it's easier to figure out what to do in a crises when I accpet it instead of fighting it or ignoring it.

Sure you can accept it, rather than fight it, or ignore it. That's kind of tangential to the point though. Accepting takes an active disbelief. I guess the question is... if you knew with absolute certainty that, in combination, a situation would turn out badly... when the constituent parts were summed, would you go ahead with it, and deal with the failure through acceptance, or wouldn't it just make more sense to defect from the situation entirely?

3. And, no, the past is not always a predictor of the future.

Its true that no individual past act, behavior or situation is an absolute predictor of the future, but (especially) commonly repeated acts, behaviors or situations are the best predictors of the future. The world is not entirely deterministic, but its far more deterministic than chaotic

We know this from anthropology and political science.

[shortandcute]

Originally Posted by Mapleton

Agreed. The standards I'm thinking of aren't cognitive distortions. They are simply things that other people would take for granted.

Sure you can accept it, rather than fight it, or ignore it. That's kind of tangential to the point though. Accepting takes an active disbelief. I guess the question is... if you knew with absolute certainty that, in combination, a situation would turn out badly... when the constituent parts were summed, would you go ahead with it, and deal with the failure through acceptance, or wouldn't it just make more sense to defect from the situation entirely?

Its true that no individual past act, behavior or situation is an absolute predictor of the future, but (especially) commonly repeated acts, behaviors or situations are the best predictors of the future. The world is not entirely deterministic, but its far more deterministic than chaotic

We know this from anthropology and political science.

fine, then just give up then; but im not talking about just blindly doing stuff that's dangerous. i just think you're a bit confused about what acceptance means. i dont see how acceptance is disbelief. yes i agree with you that certain behaviors are more likely to cause certain effects.
this is what im talking about:
1. Just becasue your dad beat you when you were in the 3rd grade doesnt mean that your present boss is going to

2. just because some girl you knew 30 years ago ripped you off, that doesn't mean that your wife is going to
But I never said that you should blindly repeat patterns that you know are going to bring bad consequences--doing that is insanity not acceptance. I think you should look more into what that whole idea means, unless of course you just want to be mad.

[jadedbutterfly]

Originally Posted by Mapleton

So... I'm not BPD, but I do have a suggestion to go to DBT group, because T thinks it would be really suitable. Im posting here because I figured you guys would probably have the most experience.
One place "FAST" says you should have standards, but radical acceptance says you should effectively negate those standards if you have a crisis.
1. This sounds suspiciously like ********
2. What the hell is the point of just endlessly accepting negative situations and crisis, by deflection? especially when past experience is such a good (not infallible but better than anything else) predictor of future experience.

It's seems like you are a bit confused about DBT and how it works. It is not all about distraction. And I am unclear where you got the idea that it teaches to use deflection... quite the opposite.
As someone with BPD ... past experiences are not a good predictor of future experiences..... in fact past experiences tend to alter/skew how I see/interpret future experiences... which can lead to some messed up outcomes (to put it lightly).
I have the "Skills Training Manual for Treating Borderline Personality Disorder" by Marsha M. Linehan This is the woman who created DBT.
There are 4 modules of DBT training. When you go through the course/group it is taken one module at a time, slowly and with homework.
1st Mindfulness teaches how to bring yourself into a moment completely with all your senses
2nd Interpersonal Effectiveness. teaches how to handle interactions with people in your life.... whether it is family, friend, or the clerk at the grocery (there is a lot to this particular module)
3rd Emotional Regulation teaches how to understand what emotions are, how to reduce your emotional vulnerability and to decrease emotional suffering
4th Distress Tolerance teaches crisis strategies like awareness. accepting reality.. how to self-soothe, how to improve the moment

You are putting together different parts of the DBT training and coming to conclusions about it.
FAST is part of the 2nd module.. Interpersonal Effectiveness.... There isn't anything about standards maybe you are confusing that with the part about keeping your self-respect?
Radical acceptance is part of the 4th module Distress Tolerance. It is a tool to usewhen you are in distress, to help bring you into the moment.. not distract from the moment.
The point of "endlessly accepting negative situations and crisis" is to learn... so that when a new crisis comes, we will have tools to handle it.
If you are not BPD ... I am curious as to why your T would suggest DBT for you.

[shezbut]

Hi Mapleton,

jadedbutterfly really summarized DBT very well!! I've been in DBT for a while now, and I am just now beginning to really grasp the different concepts.

FAST is absolutely the toughest Interpersonal Skill, in my humble opinion. It's about handling conflicts with oneself in #1. For instance, I have a bad habit of giving in to everyone else's desires. Their wants/needs come before my own. So, I REALLY need to practice using this skill. When a situation comes up, like: my bf wants to go fishing with me & I have regular appointments that I need to go to. I need to use the FAST skills. I need to say, "I can't go." and let it be right there. No apologies, no trying to figure out how to manuever (sp?) out of 1 or 2 appointments, and be honest. Now isn't a good time for me. How about tomorrow, or whatever? That's using FAST skills.

It may seem to be really simple to a lot of people to just stand up for what you want, but this is a core issue for many with BPD. I am so used to doing what others want that 9/10 I have no idea what I truly want! I don't know who I am. What I like, or what I want from life.

Very, very different than Distress Tolerance skills. Radical acceptance is a skill sometimes used in a very heavy situation. Like: my kids are in a bad mood and I just can't seem to shake them out of it. (Not literally, of course! ) Whatever I do, they just float right back into the bad mood. Is yelling going to help? Complaining about how I feel? Activities aren't helping. Encouragement isn't helping. Try radical acceptance. Sometimes, we all get into bad moods. It will pass. Chances are, once we simply accept those grumpy moods, they pass amazingly more quickly and smoothly.

I agree that Jaded's description of DBT from what I understand (just a little from reading) is a good summary. it does sound indeed like your interpretation of it goes against what the intended purposes are for DBT.

[MDDBPDPTSD]

Mapleton: I think I understand your thoughts. I practice DBT and sometimes I feel like it is all about being mindful, being right here right now. If I can manage that, then the past does not interfere with the present. In some ways, being mindful can be seen as a distraction, as it is a distraction from all the chatter in and around you. Becoming mindful really is not a distraction, but a choice to allow whatever is to be. Accepting things as they are does NOT imply approval and it does not dictate passivity.
For example, a family member can be abusive sometimes. When I notice her being grumpy, I can focus on her mood and signs she is giving off and I can then react in a defensive or offensive manner. I am using her past behavior as a predictor of the future. I am preparing myself for what has not happened and I am getting stressed out, which inhibits my ability to think clearly and operate in my wise mind. If I believe myself to be threatened, I will go to fight or flight mode. On the other hand, if I notice her getting cranky and remain mindful, I can allow her to feel whatever she is feeling and accept that she is who she is. Her mood has nothing to do with me, but with her. This accepting attitude helps me to remain calm and retain the ability to think. In fight or flight mode, I would have fed into her negative energy. In mindfulness, I observe her actions and words, but without judgement and without predicting what she will do next. That may enable me to be kinder to her or more impervious to her, depending on what my wise mind is saying is appropriate at the moment. I am less likely to become her target in wise mind. In fight or flight mode, I end up giving off victim type signals, which facilitates and attack. Can you see how that is not really a distraction, but a way to connect with my own power?

[jadedbutterfly]

I should have added this link when I first posted.... this is a DBT based on the modules set by Marsh Linehan
DBT Lessons
Hope this is a helpful site for some