[shakespeare47]

Want to talk about it? My relationship w/ my brother was pretty bad.. but there is another that comes close...

He's not a relative. He was the pastor of a church I attended with my wife. It's a mainstream denomination.. nothing really weird.. they didn't even require membership, and no fire-and-brimstone preaching.

Anyway, a guy about 15 years younger than myself started attending with his wife. I tried to be friendly with the guy... and was given the cold shoulder. Then he started getting to know our pastor and it turns out he is in the ministry and wants to become a pastor himself. Then he starts wanting to get to know me, and just is always in control and very manipulative. At one point he tells me I'm his best friend (I know, kinda weird, right). I started trying to get away... but still tried to be polite... anyway he pulls crap like being a total **** and then accuses me of ignoring him when I tried to ignore him and get away.
Things start to escalate when his wife sends me an email and accuses me of all kinds of weird things, and in the email says she thinks it's funny that I think I'm the guys best friend (I know! Really weird, right?). Then we traded a few more emails before he tells me he's blocking my email address. This is after we stopped attending the church... I have never met a more nasty, manipulative couple in my life... But, he left me feeling like he had come in to my life, tried to make me as miserable as possible.. then told me it was all my fault... and then left...

I was doing fine with never seeing him again, until I saw him at a wedding over the weekend.. He was all smiles, like nothing had ever happened between us, and then tried to shake my hand... I refused.

The worst part is, it appears my wife even thinks I'm to blame... I'd like her to see them the same way I do... but, she appears to be just fine talking with them.

The couple have even let me know that they think it's funny that I'm angry that they did so many nasty things.. and that I have no way to prove it, or get even. They appear to take delight in trying to have a good relationship with my wife... like it's the last knife they can dig into me.

[widgets]

It's those people that have the problem not you. They sound awful.

It's hard when other people close to you are blind to how bad some people are.

Try and keep your distance and stay calm, you are way above them!

[shakespeare47]

It was truly a bizarre couple of months. I'm glad they're out of my life... that's for sure! I don't think my wife truly understands the level and amount of mind games the guy played on me.... All of it without witnesses.

[ifst5]

Maybe this was all one big misunderstanding? From the outset, it sounds as though this guy didn't know how to respond to you at first - which could just be his general way with people - and when he realized the requirements for becoming a pastor he might have felt that his reactions to people and making friendships needed improvement. To that end he might have been trying to pick up where you left off only to be rebuffed because you've felt that he instantly disliked you and is now out to manipulate purely for his own gains.

I could be completely wrong but you don't go into much detail so i thought i'd explain how this struck me. You've spoken before about your issues with hyper vigilance and over analyzing. If the worst case scenario is true maybe it's better to play this guy at his own game should you ever happen upon him and his wife again - the worst thing for a manipulator is to know they too are being manipulated. So maybe shake his hand next time, smile, exchange a few pleasantries.

As for your wife, obviously she's entitled to her own friendships and opinions...so long as you can make excuses for declining involvement in any future arrangements between the three of them, i don't foresee any other problems. It's unfortunate that she can't better understand your side of things but conversely, if this guy is what you say he is, maybe you can take some comfort in knowing that out of all the people in this world...there probably aren't many like you who see him for what he really is. That's a sort of quiet power that requires sustenance from no one else but it still satisfying for the beholder.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by ifst5

Maybe this was all one big misunderstanding? From the outset, it sounds as though this guy didn't know how to respond to you at first - which could just be his general way with people - and when he realized the requirements for becoming a pastor he might have felt that his reactions to people and making friendships needed improvement. To that end he might have been trying to pick up where you left off only to be rebuffed because you've felt that he instantly disliked you and is now out to manipulate purely for his own gains.

I could be completely wrong but you don't go into much detail so i thought i'd explain how this struck me. You've spoken before about your issues with hyper vigilance and over analyzing. If the worst case scenario is true maybe it's better to play this guy at his own game should you ever happen upon him and his wife again - the worst thing for a manipulator is to know they too are being manipulated. So maybe shake his hand next time, smile, exchange a few pleasantries.

As for your wife, obviously she's entitled to her own friendships and opinions...so long as you can make excuses for declining involvement in any future arrangements between the three of them, i don't foresee any other problems. It's unfortunate that she can't better understand your side of things but conversely, if this guy is what you say he is, maybe you can take some comfort in knowing that out of all the people in this world...there probably aren't many like you who see him for what he really is. That's a sort of quiet power that requires sustenance from no one else but it still satisfying for the beholder.

No. The guy was totally messing with me. That's what is sad about this. There are people like him that are actively looking for victims... and he finds them because some people blame themselves when things get weird in a relationship.

I was glad to be rid of this guy, and had totally forgotten about him until I saw him at a wedding over the weekend. He was all fake smiles, and tried to shake my hand like nothing had ever happened between us.

I don't think you realize how badly I either want to be completely rid of him.. or find some way to publicly expose him for what he is. I'd love to see his fake world come crashing down, as his true character is revealed to everyone around him. I honestly doubt he fools too many people. I've seen some people treat him with profound disrespect, because (I assume) they also know what kind of person he is. One of those people is the wife of the pastor who mentored him (her husband ended up dying and this younger guy took over the church).

ifst. I challenge you to reread your post and become aware of your assumptions. Do you see them? (one hint of an obvious assumption: friendships?).

[vonmoxie]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

At one point he tells me I'm his best friend (I know, kinda weird, right). I started trying to get away... but still tried to be polite... anyway he pulls crap like being a total **** and then accuses me of ignoring him when I tried to ignore him and get away.
Things start to escalate when his wife sends me an email and accuses me of all kinds of weird things, and in the email says she thinks it's funny that I think I'm the guys best friend (I know! Really weird, right?). Then we traded a few more emails before he tells me he's blocking my email address.

Full grown adults who behave this way are definitely going to be problematic. I've met couples like this. Their confidence in their loyalty to one another allows them to use others as tools for their own connection. Sort of a relentless hunger that is only satisfied by the blood of others, and only temporarily. It's easier and more satisfying for them to enjoy familiar flavors, to find new ways in which to toy with those they've already identified as common enemies, spurred on by what can be very negligible offenses that they perceive. From the time that they've established a solidarity about their opinions on a person, that person is fair game.

In my opinion it's why some married couples end up having "less friends." These weird power games that people get engaged in, to feel a power in their marriage to be committed to, when the power of a more humane quality of love is not available to them.

[ifst5]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

No. The guy was totally messing with me. That's what is sad about this. There are people like him that are actively looking for victims... and he finds them because some people blame themselves when things get weird in a relationship.

I was glad to be rid of this guy, and had totally forgotten about him until I saw him at a wedding over the weekend. He was all fake smiles, and tried to shake my hand like nothing had ever happened between us.

I don't think you realize how badly I either want to be completely rid of him.. or find some way to publicly expose him for what he is. I'd love to see his fake world come crashing down, as his true character is revealed to everyone around him. I honestly doubt he fools too many people. I've seen some people treat him with profound disrespect, because (I assume) they also know what kind of person he is. One of those people is the wife of the pastor who mentored him (her husband ended up dying and this younger guy took over the church).

ifst. I challenge you to reread your post and become aware of your assumptions. Do you see them? (one hint of an obvious assumption: friendships?).

There's no need to get defensive - I was simply offering an alternative view but if that doesn't fit with what happened, fine. If you want posts that simply agree with you all the time then id like to point out that's not really what this place is about. One thing I would say that is that if you're determined to see this person come 'crashing down' I'm not sure that puts you any further above them.

You come across as very judgemental, even when someone like myself was just trying to support you. Not to worry, I won't be responding to any more of your posts.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by ifst5

There's no need to get defensive - I was simply offering an alternative view but if that doesn't fit with what happened, fine. If you want posts that simply agree with you all the time then id like to point out that's not really what this place is about. One thing I would say that is that if you're determined to see this person come 'crashing down' I'm not sure that puts you any further above them.

You come across as very judgemental, even when someone like myself was just trying to support you. Not to worry, I won't be responding to any more of your posts.

More assumptions and then some accusations. You just don't know when to quit, do you?

Let me know when you're ready to deal with the assumptions you tend to make.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by vonmoxie

Full grown adults who behave this way are definitely going to be problematic. I've met couples like this. Their confidence in their loyalty to one another allows them to use others as tools for their own connection. Sort of a relentless hunger that is only satisfied by the blood of others, and only temporarily. It's easier and more satisfying for them to enjoy familiar flavors, to find new ways in which to toy with those they've already identified as common enemies, spurred on by what can be very negligible offenses that they perceive. From the time that they've established a solidarity about their opinions on a person, that person is fair game.

In my opinion it's why some married couples end up having "less friends." These weird power games that people get engaged in, to feel a power in their marriage to be committed to, when the power of a more humane quality of love is not available to them.

Thank you. I intend to keep writing about this guy until I can get it all out.... Some of his reactions and/or mindgames were truly bizarre. And the topper was that he couldn't or wouldn't let me get away, and kept sucking me in for more abuse.

One of the truly bizarre things he said to me, is that he didn't really believe what he was preaching, and could just as easily live a worldly life filled with casual sex and prostitutes... It was totally out of left field... I don't know whether he was actually serious, or trying to make some kind of point that only he understood, or what, but it's one of many occasions where I wish I had had a hidden recording device.

When we stopped attending the church he told us that our reasons for leaving were "unbiblical". ??? what the hell does that even mean? I was tired of his games and wanted to get away. How could that possibly be "unbiblical"?

The entire experience left me feeling I had truly experienced something evil.

The best thing I can say about the entire experience is that it appears he is no longer a pastor, but is rather flipping houses.

[vonmoxie]

Unbiblical. That's rich.

It is frustrating, the kind of omnipotent authority that is sometimes assumed and enjoyed by people in that position, taking undue advantage of faith others may ascribe to them.

While his comments about living a "worldly" life (though he sounds worldly enough to me already) may have just been idle musing on his part, based on the kind of head games you've described I would wonder if this was actually a leading question, to try to get you to say something in agreement that he would then "have on you".

Perhaps a silver lining in all this is that these visibilities of his "true colors" helped you to break away. Certainly though, as you mention, the fact that he's now in a profession that is certainly not "biblical" by any stretch of the imagination (thou shalt buy and sell?) must indeed be of some comfort.

Hi shakespeare47, I know that you're a nice guy, and I really don't want to take sides or add fuel to the fire, so I'm saying this only in the interest of harmony.

I think the wording in your responses to ifst5 might have come across as a bit aggressive. I could see myself getting a bit provoked by similar wording.

No biggie, it's just that all of us have such difficult lives already ... our biggest enemies are inside our minds ... let's be nice to each other here ... we're all here to help each other out. We lose enough friends out in the real world ... it would be really sad for us to lose friends here as well

[shakespeare47]

Thank you for the kind words, liliodian4ever...

To give you an idea of how I feel about this couple. Imagine this. A couple comes into your home, overpowers you, vandalizes your home in front of you... smashes windows, breaks furniture, destroys items that have great sentimental value, then laughs at your powerlessness, tells you they think its funny that you would never be able to prove anything, because there are no witnesses... and then continues to taunt you whenever you see them in the future.

Then when you start to talk about it for the first time.. someone like ifst5 asks you if were sure you weren't hallucinating at the time.

So, perhaps it was a strong reaction... but, I hope you can see where I am coming from.

By the way... I showed this thread to my wife... and we've been talking about it. Even though she didn't experience the specific things that they did when we were alone... she told me that she is aware of plenty of the things that they did that were just weird and manipulative and she is glad we don't have to deal with them except at rare occasions like the recent wedding.. it's just that she has a hard time just ignoring them... or being rude to them. The incident at the wedding over the weekend was just my wife talking to his wife for a few minutes, his wife initiated it. and his wife did virtually all of the talking, and I was sitting close by, so I heard the entire conversation.

[Hobbit House]

Wow, sorry you had to go something like that. I've known people that behave in that manner. It's always about them. I don't see where you did anything wrong.

[shakespeare47]

Thanks. I hope rather than know that the husband has some mental illness, or personality disorder that is not being treated... and that if he were to get help, perhaps he could start to *ahem* control his behavior.

As you can see from my previous posts... there are times when I have vindictive thoughts in regards to this guy... I wish I could be rid of those types of thoughts.

If you've never been in a truly toxic church (remember during part of the time, this guy was my pastor!)... then it's probably difficult to imagine the damage these people can do.

I just want to get away... but, I'm telling you, I would seriously consider writing a letter to the board of any church he might pastor. I'm not quite sure what I would say except perhaps "please keep an eye on this guy!". And even then, I'd be afraid of how he might react if he knew that I had written the letter.

and really. I think his problems and issues do show up rather quickly. and I wouldn't be surprised if that's why he is no longer a pastor. So, perhaps no warning letter is necessary. People just see what I saw.

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

Thank you for the kind words, liliodian4ever...

To give you an idea of how I feel about this couple. Imagine this. A couple comes into your home, overpowers you, vandalizes your home in front of you... smashes windows, breaks furniture, destroys items that have great sentimental value, then laughs at your powerlessness, tells you they think its funny that you would never be able to prove anything, because there are no witnesses... and then continues to taunt you whenever you see them in the future.

Then when you start to talk about it for the first time.. someone like ifst5 asks you if were sure you weren't hallucinating at the time.

So, perhaps it was a strong reaction... but, I hope you can see where I am coming from.

By the way... I showed this thread to my wife... and we've been talking about it. Even though she didn't experience the specific things that they did when we were alone... she told me that she is aware of plenty of the things that they did that were just weird and manipulative and she is glad we don't have to deal with them except at rare occasions like the recent wedding.. it's just that she has a hard time just ignoring them... or being rude to them. The incident at the wedding over the weekend was just my wife talking to his wife for a few minutes, his wife initiated it. and his wife did virtually all of the talking, and I was sitting close by, so I heard the entire conversation.

Yeah, I see your perspective and understand your frustration completely. I guess, sometimes, it's hard to express or convey the whole story on a forum like this, so maybe readers don't get the complete picture. Then, their responses may aggravate our frustration.

Anyway, about those people, yeah, they sound absolutely evil. You mentioned running into them at a wedding. Do you live in a small town where it's hard to escape them ?

If I were in your shoes, I think I'd do what ifst5 suggested ... just try to be superficially nice, even though you're cursing them under your breath. I know it sounds lame, but I've learned through my own bitter experience that diplomacy does work well in such situations, and the best part of it is that YOU don't get stressed. If you have done nothing to create animosity, the other person has no right to mistreat you, and you end up becoming the good guy and the other guy is exposed as the bad guy.

[jean17]

Originally Posted by shakespeare47

Want to talk about it? My relationship w/ my brother was pretty bad.. but there is another that comes close...

He's not a relative. He was the pastor of a church I attended with my wife. It's a mainstream denomination.. nothing really weird.. they didn't even require membership, and no fire-and-brimstone preaching.

Anyway, a guy about 15 years younger than myself started attending with his wife. I tried to be friendly with the guy... and was given the cold shoulder. Then he started getting to know our pastor and it turns out he is in the ministry and wants to become a pastor himself. Then he starts wanting to get to know me, and just is always in control and very manipulative. At one point he tells me I'm his best friend (I know, kinda weird, right). I started trying to get away... but still tried to be polite... anyway he pulls crap like being a total **** and then accuses me of ignoring him when I tried to ignore him and get away.
Things start to escalate when his wife sends me an email and accuses me of all kinds of weird things, and in the email says she thinks it's funny that I think I'm the guys best friend (I know! Really weird, right?). Then we traded a few more emails before he tells me he's blocking my email address. This is after we stopped attending the church... I have never met a more nasty, manipulative couple in my life... But, he left me feeling like he had come in to my life, tried to make me as miserable as possible.. then told me it was all my fault... and then left...

I was doing fine with never seeing him again, until I saw him at a wedding over the weekend.. He was all smiles, like nothing had ever happened between us, and then tried to shake my hand... I refused.

The worst part is, it appears my wife even thinks I'm to blame... I'd like her to see them the same way I do... but, she appears to be just fine talking with them.

The couple have even let me know that they think it's funny that I'm angry that they did so many nasty things.. and that I have no way to prove it, or get even. They appear to take delight in trying to have a good relationship with my wife... like it's the last knife they can dig into me.

Truly does sound weird. Sorry it is coming between you and your wife. That's not good. I wish you could get on the same page about it and maybe agree that simply for the fact that they are coming between you, you should agree to keep them at arms-length if not completely out of your lives.
Just my thoughts. Hope it all works out for your best.

[shakespeare47]

Thanks. Other than the recent wedding, we hadn't seen them in about 5 years.

[shakespeare47]

Originally Posted by lilodian4ever

Yeah, I see your perspective and understand your frustration completely. I guess, sometimes, it's hard to express or convey the whole story on a forum like this, so maybe readers don't get the complete picture. Then, their responses may aggravate our frustration.

Anyway, about those people, yeah, they sound absolutely evil. You mentioned running into them at a wedding. Do you live in a small town where it's hard to escape them ?

If I were in your shoes, I think I'd do what ifst5 suggested ... just try to be superficially nice, even though you're cursing them under your breath. I know it sounds lame, but I've learned through my own bitter experience that diplomacy does work well in such situations, and the best part of it is that YOU don't get stressed. If you have done nothing to create animosity, the other person has no right to mistreat you, and you end up becoming the good guy and the other guy is exposed as the bad guy.

Thanks again. Yes, I'm sure my frustration with the entire situation comes across very clearly.

It's very unlikely that I will run into either of them, as they live about 45 minutes away... and we have only 1 or 2 mutual friends. The mutual friend who got married is living in South America and just came home for the wedding.
It's funny that I didn't even think about the possibility that this problem couple might be at the wedding until the morning of the wedding. and then we got to the church and found that he was the master of ceremonies... At least it didn't last all that long. We were at the local fair having a good time, about 1 1/2 hrs after we first entered the church.
I basically just refused to shake his hand.... and then just grinned and bore it. Until I could start this thread, anyway.

The most offensive thing is just the toying that is going on. The attitude of nah, nah, we got the better of you, and you can't do anything about it... The continual games and manipulations... the continued toying even after we left the church... I'm glad to be rid of them..

I did talk to my T and my wife about it at length. And my T had some good insights.

I think I have some pretty good resources and a good plan in case I should have to deal with this couple, or people like them in the future... and that is what is most important.

[widgets]

Originally Posted by lilodian4ever

Hi shakespeare47, I know that you're a nice guy, and I really don't want to take sides or add fuel to the fire, so I'm saying this only in the interest of harmony.

I think the wording in your responses to ifst5 might have come across as a bit aggressive. I could see myself getting a bit provoked by similar wording.

No biggie, it's just that all of us have such difficult lives already ... our biggest enemies are inside our minds ... let's be nice to each other here ... we're all here to help each other out. We lose enough friends out in the real world ... it would be really sad for us to lose friends here as well

I am really glad you posted this.

I could totally see where you were coming from Shakespeare but I don't really think ifst said anything wrong, she is just a genuinely nice person who wanted to explore the option that they were maybe not as bad as you think, but in her First post she even said that was just her exploring another option and that obviously you were most probably totally right. I don't agree with her original suggestion about these people as I imagine you ate a fully capably judge of character! But I felt really bad for her because she was just trying to see everyone else's point of view.

Lilodian4ever I wanted to say very much the same as you hit didn't think I was capable of wording it right without being offending or patronising, i really like reading both ifst' and Shakespeare's posts.

I am glad you have spoken to your wife Shakespeare and you both understand where each other are coming from a bit more. Makes life easier!

[shakespeare47]

Thanks Widget. I'm certainly willing to accept that ifst5 is a nice person.....

My worst relationship - with my biological parents. They boil my blood like you wouldn't believe.

[shakespeare47]

^ I hear you. I've stayed away from my parents for the last 8 months or so, except that I was there for my mom's double mastectomy.
I have no plans of seeing them anytime soon. Maybe we'll see them over the Christmas holidays... we'll see.