[lavendersage]

I read a few things mentioning that it's typical for people with BPD to not be able to exhibit empathy.

Does not compute. If anything, I feel for people too ****** much.

Unless it's referring to when people with BPD are in their rage zone; then, yeah, Mother Theresa's followers can rest easy: I am not giving them any kind of run for their money during those episodes.

But in my day-to-day life, as a HSP, lack of empathy is not a problem for me.

What about you guys? What's your thoughts on this [apparently] part of BPD?

It's one of the things that horrified me the most when I first started reading about BPD. It (for me) made us sound like monsters.

Originally Posted by lavendersage

I read a few things mentioning that it's typical for people with BPD to not be able to exhibit empathy.

As Arnold Schwarzenegger says in one of his intense action scenes, BULLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL****

Originally Posted by lavendersage

Does not compute.

Umm, that's because the people who claim such things are, for lack of better words, no authorities on the subject. Do you know why people who feel like crap inside themselves put others down ? Now apply that same reasoning to the folks who say stuff like this.

Originally Posted by lavendersage

If anything, I feel for people too ****** much.

Then, like me, you are probably correct about your diagnosis of BPD.

Originally Posted by lavendersage

What about you guys? What's your thoughts on this [apparently] part of BPD?

It's one of the things that horrified me the most when I first started reading about BPD. It (for me) made us sound like monsters.

Unfortunately, ignorance and judgment are majorities in this world, knowledge and understanding are minorities, and compassion doesn't exist (OHHHHHHH, WAIT, ARE WE THE ONES WITHOUT EMPATHY ?!!!!). Oh, and umm, if I had to give you only one word of advice, now that you know you're suffering from BPD ... don't tell ***anyone*** about it ... if you don't want to torture yourself.

[lavendersage]

I've actually already been diagnosed with it.

Why do you say not to tell anyone lest "I torture myself"? (Not that I plan to; the 2 people I thought were 'safe' to tell both told me, "Oh you don't have that." I know better so I just dropped it.

Thanks for replying btw!

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by lavendersage

I read a few things mentioning that it's typical for people with BPD to not be able to exhibit empathy.

Does not compute. If anything, I feel for people too ****** much.

Unless it's referring to when people with BPD are in their rage zone; then, yeah, Mother Theresa's followers can rest easy: I am not giving them any kind of run for their money during those episodes.

But in my day-to-day life, as a HSP, lack of empathy is not a problem for me.

What about you guys? What's your thoughts on this [apparently] part of BPD?

It's one of the things that horrified me the most when I first started reading about BPD. It (for me) made us sound like monsters.

In my experience, it's complicated. For instance, there's "after the fact" empathy, where sometime down the line after you calmed down you realize how you overreacted and start to understand and have empathy for the other person.

It's because usually before a blowup, you feel under attack and you experience immense pain and hypersensitivity- an amalgamation of all the pains of abandonment, rejection, belittlement, betrayal and rage and it's just overwhelming. The intensity and focus on the hurt prevent seeing things clearly and separating the present situation from all the past hurts. You are in so much pain you don't realize exactly what's going on, and the overwhelming and highly personalized response- the counterattack- is so out of proportion that it frightens and really hurts/traumatizes the other person. And it seems the only and automatic way to process that huge cluster**** of emotions that can't be identified but are about to burst out of your body. In that moment it's impossible to have empathy, because your senses, your cognitions, your emotions are all overwhelmed by this reopened wound and the outburst of traumatic ghosts that are trampling you. In these moments, your rage can make you seem like a monster. But it's a knee-jerk, almost reflexive protective mechanism. It's not instrumental or predatory like that of sociopaths. It comes from a real throbbing wound that has been there since childhood.

In other times, your sensitivity heightens your ability to read people's emotions and your desire for connection to people and experiences of pain actually help you have empathy. I don't know if I can say borderlines have more empathy than others. Everyone has their own empathy capacities and in many instances empathy can be learned with maturity, experience and therapy.

That's how I see it, and my self-awareness is the product of over a decade of therapy and ****ing up. Heh.

[lavendersage]

Originally Posted by crosstobear

In my experience, it's complicated. For instance, there's "after the fact" empathy, where sometime down the line after you calmed down you realize how you overreacted and start to understand and have empathy for the other person.

It's because usually before a blowup, you feel under attack and you experience immense pain and hypersensitivity- an amalgamation of all the pains of abandonment, rejection, belittlement, betrayal and rage and it's just overwhelming. The intensity and focus on the hurt prevent seeing things clearly and separating the present situation from all the past hurts. You are in so much pain you don't realize exactly what's going on, and the overwhelming and highly personalized response- the counterattack- is so out of proportion that it frightens and really hurts/traumatizes the other person. And it seems the only and automatic way to process that huge cluster**** of emotions that can't be identified but are about to burst out of your body. In that moment it's impossible to have empathy, because your senses, your cognitions, your emotions are all overwhelmed by this reopened wound and the outburst of traumatic ghosts that are trampling you. In these moments, your rage can make you seem like a monster. But it's a knee-jerk, almost reflexive protective mechanism. It's not instrumental or predatory like that of sociopaths. It comes from a real throbbing wound that has been there since childhood.

In other times, your sensitivity heightens your ability to read people's emotions and your desire for connection to people and experiences of pain actually help you have empathy. I don't know if I can say borderlines have more empathy than others. Everyone has their own empathy capacities and in many instances empathy can be learned with maturity, experience and therapy.

That's how I see it, and my self-awareness is the product of over a decade of therapy and ****ing up. Heh.

That was an excellent description of what it's like - at least for me. I almost cried reading the part about the mix of emotions caused by long-ago various hurts leading to the rage outbursts. I wish all that bad stuff hadn't happened to me. It damaged me.

[HeavyMetalLover]

Originally Posted by crosstobear

In my experience, it's complicated. For instance, there's "after the fact" empathy, where sometime down the line after you calmed down you realize how you overreacted and start to understand and have empathy for the other person.

It's because usually before a blowup, you feel under attack and you experience immense pain and hypersensitivity- an amalgamation of all the pains of abandonment, rejection, belittlement, betrayal and rage and it's just overwhelming. The intensity and focus on the hurt prevent seeing things clearly and separating the present situation from all the past hurts. You are in so much pain you don't realize exactly what's going on, and the overwhelming and highly personalized response- the counterattack- is so out of proportion that it frightens and really hurts/traumatizes the other person. And it seems the only and automatic way to process that huge cluster**** of emotions that can't be identified but are about to burst out of your body. In that moment it's impossible to have empathy, because your senses, your cognitions, your emotions are all overwhelmed by this reopened wound and the outburst of traumatic ghosts that are trampling you. In these moments, your rage can make you seem like a monster. But it's a knee-jerk, almost reflexive protective mechanism. It's not instrumental or predatory like that of sociopaths. It comes from a real throbbing wound that has been there since childhood.

In other times, your sensitivity heightens your ability to read people's emotions and your desire for connection to people and experiences of pain actually help you have empathy. I don't know if I can say borderlines have more empathy than others. Everyone has their own empathy capacities and in many instances empathy can be learned with maturity, experience and therapy.

That's how I see it, and my self-awareness is the product of over a decade of therapy and ****ing up. Heh.

Thank you so much for your reply!! This really hit the nail on the head for me! I get so overwhelmed from all my pain and all the associated emotions and responses. I am trying to learn to act on them as opposed having completely reactionary responses. However, time and time again, I find myself having these knee-jerk reactions you just described and I feel so out of control! It's such a bizarre thing; I hate the pain I feel and just want to make it stop no matter the cost but then I usually AM a very empathetic person and I feel very deeply. At the same time, though, when I'm hurt, I both turn my negativity inward and strike out at others.... usually with venom.... and then, when the smoke finally clears I have many amends to make or I have completely destroyed yet another relationship.

I actually have both BPD and Bipolar Disorder which work against me intensifying my emotions as well as the unpredictability at which I feel them. I am on meds and have been in and out of therapy for years. I think I'm in the midst of a mixed episode right now, actually. I had an argument yesterday with my adult daughter and words were said, feelings were hurt, I ended up shutting myself off in the basement and locking the door. I just laid on the floor in the fetal position shaking, rocking, crying and screaming it out for awhile. I feel like a total *** now.....as I am the mother and supposedly an adult, but I can't handle my emotions. I guess this is one reason why I love my heavy metal music. It helps me scream my angst out. Hehe....

Originally Posted by lavendersage

Why do you say not to tell anyone lest "I torture myself"? (Not that I plan to; the 2 people I thought were 'safe' to tell both told me, "Oh you don't have that." I know better so I just dropped it.

Because they will get scared of what they don't know anything about, and use it against you in every way they can ... and ...

... they will enjoy doing so.

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by HeavyMetalLover

Thank you so much for your reply!! This really hit the nail on the head for me! I get so overwhelmed from all my pain and all the associated emotions and responses. I am trying to learn to act on them as opposed having completely reactionary responses. However, time and time again, I find myself having these knee-jerk reactions you just described and I feel so out of control! It's such a bizarre thing; I hate the pain I feel and just want to make it stop no matter the cost but then I usually AM a very empathetic person and I feel very deeply. At the same time, though, when I'm hurt, I both turn my negativity inward and strike out at others.... usually with venom.... and then, when the smoke finally clears I have many amends to make or I have completely destroyed yet another relationship.

I actually have both BPD and Bipolar Disorder which work against me intensifying my emotions as well as the unpredictability at which I feel them. I am on meds and have been in and out of therapy for years. I think I'm in the midst of a mixed episode right now, actually. I had an argument yesterday with my adult daughter and words were said, feelings were hurt, I ended up shutting myself off in the basement and locking the door. I just laid on the floor in the fetal position shaking, rocking, crying and screaming it out for awhile. I feel like a total *** now.....as I am the mother and supposedly an adult, but I can't handle my emotions. I guess this is one reason why I love my heavy metal music. It helps me scream my angst out. Hehe....

That's the exact same reason I listen to metal. The intensity helps me process my own emotions.

[HeavyMetalLover]

Originally Posted by crosstobear

That's the exact same reason I listen to metal. The intensity helps me process my own emotions.

Right on!

[YMIHere]

I don't know if this qualifies, but this is an example of what I see as an "empathy issue."

My life is chaos. That probably runs in the family, though my sisters and I handle things differently and have different threshholds.

My sister A was supposed to be getting married but she had been handling this whole thing poorly. I waited til almost the last possible minute to book my airline tix and get a dress. I can wear whatever I want but it had to stay in the theme of 1950s pin up/Rockabilly.

15 days before her wedding I get a phone call from her at work asking me if I can get my money from my airline tickets back. I'm like, "It's probably going to cost me a couple hundred dollars. Why?"

She goes on to tell me how she blew her engine and was probably going to lose her job b/c she can't get to work. She doesn't have the money for the repairs and now she has to put the wedding off etc.

In this minute I am P!SSED! I've been knocking myself out trying to find a dress for the wedding, I've spent quite a bit of money and here we are EXACTLY where I figured we were going to end up anyway! I'm thinking about the fact that she took a trip to Disney this year and how IRRESPONSIBLE it was that 2 weeks before her wedding she's got $580. Anger present, empathy nay.

I could only see how HER situation was affecting ME. We had a convo later on where I told her why I blew up (all the reasons I cited above). I think she just let it go, though she wasn't really over it. We happened to have a convo last night where I told her where I've been these last few weeks and then the two of us were crying on the phone. She was admitting that she had no idea how I was struggling. Telling me that she wishes that I could see me the way that she sees me because they are WORLDS apart.

I don't know if it qualifies, but I do know that what I consider my lack of empathy usually goes hand in hand with when I feel like I'm in survivor mode.

[lavendersage]

Originally Posted by YMIHere

I don't know if this qualifies, but this is an example of what I see as an "empathy issue."

My life is chaos. That probably runs in the family, though my sisters and I handle things differently and have different...

I don't know if it qualifies, but I do know that what I consider my lack of empathy usually goes hand in hand with when I feel like I'm in survivor mode.

First, I think we may be sisters cause your family sounds the same as mine.

Second, I think it does qualify in terms of MY "lack of empathy" times. I also do it when my brain has gone in to survival mode.

Thanks for this.

[YMIHere]

Originally Posted by lavendersage

First, I think we may be sisters cause your family sounds the same as mine.

Second, I think it does qualify in terms of MY "lack of empathy" times. I also do it when my brain has gone in to survival mode.

Thanks for this.

Thanks for "getting it."

[Tauren]

Can I offer an outsider's perspective? My BFF has this disorder, and she thinks she's empathizing too much when in actuality she is not good at reading other people's emotions at all. She takes what she is feeling and projects it onto them. It causes her to think people are putting her down when they're not talking about her at all, and it causes a lot of weird little misunderstandings. Like one time she told me I had to stand up to someone and tell them not to judge me, and I was like, "Huh? Judge me? Why would they judge me? Why would I care if they did?" Took me a while to understand that she was the one who felt judged.

[crosstobear]

Originally Posted by Tauren

Can I offer an outsider's perspective? My BFF has this disorder, and she thinks she's empathizing too much when in actuality she is not good at reading other people's emotions at all. She takes what she is feeling and projects it onto them. It causes her to think people are putting her down when they're not talking about her at all, and it causes a lot of weird little misunderstandings. Like one time she told me I had to stand up to someone and tell them not to judge me, and I was like, "Huh? Judge me? Why would they judge me? Why would I care if they did?" Took me a while to understand that she was the one who felt judged.

Hit the nail on the head. There's so much projection going on its not even funny. When not triggered, the empathy varies per person. I had to learn how to read others- and I have a lot of difficulty doing it. And before even trying, I have to purposefully ignore my gut. And its hard, BC where do you draw the line? What if your gut is rightly telling you that you're being taken advantage of vs wrongly jumping to conclusions about someone? It's a mess, and frankly no amount of DBT or CBT has helped me in this regard.

[lavendersage]

Originally Posted by Tauren

Can I offer an outsider's perspective? My BFF has this disorder, and she thinks she's empathizing too much when in actuality she is not good at reading other people's emotions at all. She takes what she is feeling and projects it onto them. It causes her to think people are putting her down when they're not talking about her at all, and it causes a lot of weird little misunderstandings. Like one time she told me I had to stand up to someone and tell them not to judge me, and I was like, "Huh? Judge me? Why would they judge me? Why would I care if they did?" Took me a while to understand that she was the one who felt judged.

I hear what you're saying. While I think there are definitely times that I project, more often than not I am hitting the other person's emotions right on the head. I know this because I'll usually say/ask them something along the lines of, "Are you feeling this XYZ way right now?" Or, "Does it seem this ABC way to you?" or some such thing and the person will be like, "Oh my God, YES. You literally took the words out of my mouth!" or "I couldn't have said it better myself" or that sort of thing.

I have zero-tolerance for BS so I don't involve myself with people that would agree with me for the sake of agreeing. The people in my life, if I "got it wrong" would be like, "WTH? No!!" (Thank God: "yes men" drive me nuts.)

Nevertheless, yeah, there are times I project or, at the very least, my paranoia gets the better of me.

[lavendersage]

Originally Posted by crosstobear

Hit the nail on the head. There's so much projection going on its not even funny. When not triggered, the empathy varies per person. I had to learn how to read others- and I have a lot of difficulty doing it. And before even trying, I have to purposefully ignore my gut. And its hard, BC where do you draw the line? What if your gut is rightly telling you that you're being taken advantage of vs wrongly jumping to conclusions about someone? It's a mess, and frankly no amount of DBT or CBT has helped me in this regard.

Have you seen the movie High Fidelity with John Cusack? One of the best lines - ever - in any movie is his character talking about how his instincts in his past have never steered him correctly. He goes, "I've finally come to the realization that my guts have s**t for brains."

Classic. Love it!

[Tauren]

LOL, my guts have ***** for brains, for sure!

I used to think that I didn't empathize, but that is absolutely false. I kind of have to or I'd be really crappy at the career I'm about to go into. I think it's more that I dislike whining, which I hear a LOT in my line of work. I can't tell you the number of times I have been at work likely feeling worse (I get migraines sometimes...can't call in sick for all of them) than the person who was crying, screaming, moaning, yelling at me, refusing to walk to the exam room, etc. In that case, my empathy tank is running on fumes.

The feedback I've had from others is that I am, indeed, quite empathetic. I tend to believe that, now, and in fact I remember being a child and wanting to take care of everything. I mean, everything. I once saw a beautiful orange leaf in the street that was being tossed around by cars and I took it home with me and put it on my windowsill, in the sunlight. I was a weird kid...only child. I think that I can build walls around certain feelings/emotions that I feel may overwhelm me, and empathy may be one of those emotions.

[freespirit37]

That isn't true. BPDs feel so much empathy, they have trouble distinguishing the emotions of others from their own.

It is a narcissistic trait to not feel empathy. Whatever you are reading is inaccurate. There are a lot of pages on the web that misrepresent BPD. I only trust reliable sources such as NIHM the DSM.

[Tauren]

Originally Posted by freespirit37

That isn't true. BPDs feel so much empathy, they have trouble distinguishing the emotions of others from their own.

Actually that's really, really, really not true. I know it feels that way, but it's just not true.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0829123819.htm
Double dissociation between cognitive and affective empathy in borderline personality disorder
Neuronal correlates of altered empathy and social cognition in borderline personality disorder. - PubMed - NCBI

[lavendersage]

Ascribing "true" and "not true" towards things psychiatric/psychological will always have to involve a certain amount of fluidity. Nobody is the exact same way as "the next guy", a person can themselves (sometimes - not always) change to varying degrees over the course of time. Individuals will present across a "spectrum". It's not an area where stasis is the norm.

It's the broader strokes that gather symptoms in a diagnostic net. Not that that's wrong: it helps to have some means to measure. I just think when you're drilling down to an individual level, it's important to bear in mind that what may be true for some, will be untrue for others.

[Tauren]

Possibly but it looks like a dysfunction in the part of the brain that deals with empathy might actually be fundamental to BPD disorder.

Look at psychopathy for example - you can argue about the symptoms all you want, but it's actually caused by a malformation of the amygdala, so you either have it or you don't, true or false.

[lavendersage]

Originally Posted by Tauren

Possibly but it looks like a dysfunction in the part of the brain that deals with empathy might actually be fundamental to BPD disorder.

Look at psychopathy for example - you can argue about the symptoms all you want, but it's actually caused by a malformation of the amygdala, so you either have it or you don't, true or false.

Like much in the MH field, more studies, over time, will tell a more fulsome tale. Still, I still think each individual's "mental makeup" dictates there will always be a certain amount of leeway present.

[Uprwestsdr]

Empathy is caring about the feelings of other people. In my experience the last thing a BPD feels is empathy when unloading rage at someone who has done nothing wrong. When was the last time you felt real guilt about hurting someone else?

[lavendersage]

Originally Posted by Uprwestsdr

Empathy is caring about the feelings of other people. In my experience the last thing a BPD feels is empathy when unloading rage at someone who has done nothing wrong. When was the last time you felt real guilt about hurting someone else?

I'm not certain if that's directed at me or towards any one of us on this thread.
I'll speak for myself, alone.

Written communication is one-dimensional - a lot can get "lost in translation". I can't see your facial expression nor hear the tones in your voice. I can only go by what's on the page. Bearing that in mind, I may be "reading you wrong", but your post - taking it from it's one-dimensional aspect - could be construed as a little hostile. (If I'm wrong, my sincere apologies.)

If, however, I'm guessing correctly you are a bit angry/frustrated...I would bet it's because you were/are on the receiving end of a BPD when they're on a rage-bender. If that's the case - I'm sorry you had/have to go through that. I know it cannot be any fun AT ALL.

At the same time, Psych Central is a place that I consider "safe" to share what's going on for me inside emotionally and mentally. I wouldn't presume to invalidate any of your experience; that's not my (or anybody's) right. I would ask, though, that if I was right in sensing a bit of hostility from you, that you please channel that (hostility/anger) somewhere other than in threads in the BPD sub-forum. Perhaps, if you've been a recipient of BPD non-stellar behavior....this isn't the best choice of forum for you? And (though you may not believe it one bit), I DO say that with the utmost respect intended.

I've not "seen" anybody on this sub-forum that's thrilled to pieces that they have been diagnosed as having BPD. We're not all in here partying like it's 1999. No.