[archipelago]

There are ways in which this site feels unsafe. People engage in sneaky tactics where they personalize and argue in a way that isn't healthy. There's lots of projection that occurs and then people feel that they are almost entitled to do what they do, sneakily attack you, though not a direct attack so you can't point to anything in particular but it is still obvious that it is irrationally motivated.

There is no mechanism here to deal with this. The best way in real life is to do a direct confrontation, but that is frowned upon here. If you raise a person's behavior in the middle of a thread so it is public and people then become accountable and others can see it, that is removed as some kind of interference when it is actually productive and healthy.

I don't see how this type of discussion about the way people are conducting themselves harms anything. It is the exact opposite. Having to hide it and maybe use private messaging just opens up yourself to more abusive behavior which is not monitored. Whereas direct, public confrontation is open and honest, allows others to weigh in, and tells the abusive party that their tactics are not appreciated.

This has to be fixed or people will get harmed and eventually stop coming because it is unsafe.

[DocJohn]

We don't allow public confrontation because in real life, that rarely happens (unless you are doing some sort of intervention). Interpersonal problems with others are best resolved privately, just as they are in real life.

If you have concerns about a particular member harassing others, feel free to PM me or another admin here to discuss further.

DocJohn

The politics are inescapable my friend. Where ever we will go in life, it will always be there. The key is to rise above it. Don't become burdened with the weight of the world and others' refusal to conduct themselves in a manner worthy of maturity. Pettiness, especially from someone you respect, is always a heartbreaker. No bother, rise above beloved. PM me if you are feeling low. Yours truly, Lightbulb7Seven

[spondiferous]

I agree. It is frustrating to see people repeat the same behaviors with seemingly no consequences. But the fact of the matter is, if they are difficult to be around they are already experiencing the consequences. And if you notice someone acting inappropriately, it's like DocJohn says, you can always report it.
I feel bad for people who feel like it's a direct attack and personalize it to the point of feeling like they have to leave the site. But there again, I agree with Lightbulb: this stuff occurs elsewhere in life and we need to learn to deal with it in a constructive manner. If someone has made a comment that I find obnoxious, insensitive, or uncalled for, I will either tell them in person or respectfully disagree. I have not yet come across a situation that warranted reporting, but I wouldn't hesitate if I thought it appropriate.

[archipelago]

The best way to stop someone who is not following the rules of civil discourse (and might be a bully) is to confront them on the spot and allow the community to see it so they can also respond.

Private messaging only exposes you to more without any protection. And if you hit a spot, it can become much worse because of defensive attacking that happens in private so there is no way to feel safe about it.

In groups, there are things called "process time" where when something disrupts the balance, you take time out to process what is going on and then return to the discussion at hand. This is a tried and true method for dealing with problems in a mature and responsible way that is fair to everyone and restores civility and safety.

[spondiferous]

I agree if it's a situation where more than two people were affected. But if there's process time every time someone someone says or does something that someone doesn't agree with, I think that's a bit excessive. I see where you're coming from and in principal I agree with the process. I am in many groups where group process is the model. I don't think anyone should suffer at the hands (or words) of another for any reason. I guess from my perspective there's plenty of people who have no problem speaking their minds and I also believe in personal responsibility. In a community of thousands, what exactly would that look like? If there were more than two parties involved what's to stop them from entering a chat room with a third/fourth/fifth/etc party who is impartial to facilitate? (A private chat room, that is, if one exists.)

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by iota

The best way to stop someone who is not following the rules of civil discourse (and might be a bully) is to confront them on the spot and allow the community to see it so they can also respond.

Private messaging only exposes you to more without any protection. And if you hit a spot, it can become much worse because of defensive attacking that happens in private so there is no way to feel safe about it.

In groups, there are things called "process time" where when something disrupts the balance, you take time out to process what is going on and then return to the discussion at hand. This is a tried and true method for dealing with problems in a mature and responsible way that is fair to everyone and restores civility and safety.

one problem with this is that we have many different locations, cultures, religions.... that means even defining what is considered to be "rules of civil discourse" is different for everyone...

example

america is a free country. what that means is the constitution gives us the right to say what ever we want to. (freedom of speech) which means there are no "rules for civil Discourse" (here in america civil discourse is having conversations that are debating an issue or a behavior) we can gossip, confront, work out problems with each other directly, privately or publicly..

in Iran they do not have freedom of speech therefore their "rules of civil discourse" are much more limiting....women and children dont talk, discuss or debate. they are the property of their husbands. they must do and say only what their husbands deem acceptable for speech and behavior.

in some indian cultures it is the women that deem what it acceptable speech and behavior.

in a democratic nation the whole nation votes on whats acceptable and what isnt.

in a communist nation it is the government that dictates what is acceptable for debating/discussions...

the list can go on and on...if you google civil discourse you will get millions upon millions of ways in which different countries, loations, races, religions, cultures differ between their definition of whats civil discourse or not..

the same with bullying....what is one persons definition and standard for bullying is not for others...example in some locations it is acceptable to name call a person, in another location it is taught by schools, parents, the government, tribes to use name calling and what I here in america humiliation as a discipline so it is not considered against the rules of civil discourse....

my point is there is many different people here with different standards so the only way to make things right for a .....majority....of the members is if the owner of the website sets the rules of what is acceptable and what isnt.. then they and the deal with whether a reported member has broken the rules of the site.

and they offer a way for those that feel like they are being bullied to report the issue and prevent further problems by using the protection features of the site....

I deal with those that I feel may be perceived as offensive, triggering, or not following the rules of the site by reporting them and using the self protection method of placing that person on the ignore list if I need to that day.

some days I dont use the ignore list and other days I use it frequently. it all depends upon what I am able to handle that day..

my suggestion...if you feel someone is bullying others or yourself, report them and then use the ignore protection feature that this site has to help each of us to protect ourselves from triggering / offensive people, posts, issues..

[healingme4me]

Having used a variety of message boards, through the years, I have learned, that some days as humans, we can read a person's posts one way, with our own emotions involved, and perhaps a week later, it can look completely different.

I've seen people on PC, have disagreements, not yell and shout arguments, but agreeing to disagree or respectfully having a different point of view.

I've been on others boards, where members just don't seem to gel and sometimes the 'reporting' can get out of hand and it's not usually for the better. Isn't it easier to ignore a poster, than it is to report them due to personal perspective. If obviously, the person is clearly bashing another member, then obviously bring in a moderator, yet, it's sometimes a matter of different points of views, perspectives, opinions, etc.

What one may read as sarcastic and rude, may not be meant that way?!

Can always, ask, what a person means?
And then choose to place that person on your personal ignore list?

[emgreen]

Originally Posted by healingme4me

What one may read as sarcastic and rude, may not be meant that way?!

Can always, ask, what a person means?

I agree with healing. The written word has limits since we can't always detect the tone of what someone else writes. Sometimes, at least, I'm sure there are misunderstandings. Are there people on PC who sometimes rub me the wrong way? Sure there are! I try not to take things personally here, though. For the record, I feel completely safe on PC.

[archipelago]

PMs don't work. They just expose you to worse treatment, then you get a load of it and the person blocks you so there is no way to process the load of crap dumped on you.

It has to happen in public so that people restrain themselves and so that others can see what is going on.

It's hardly worth it in the long run. If people can't behave there is no way to really do anything about it and why put up with it.

Originally Posted by iota

PMs don't work. They just expose you to worse treatment, then you get a load of it and the person blocks you so there is no way to process the load of crap dumped on you.

It has to happen in public so that people restrain themselves and so that others can see what is going on.

It's hardly worth it in the long run. If people can't behave there is no way to really do anything about it and why put up with it.

Why bring others into the argument though? I think arguments should be kept private, Personally I don't like seeing arguing or bullying it is always best to report the post.

[archipelago]

You clearly aren't listening and just repeating the rules and norms here, which I disagree with and have already stated that.

You can't do things in private if it's not safe and also if the person blocks you so what you say makes no sense and it's taking in anything I'm saying.

Doing things in public keeps people honest and then people are better protected because others can also support them and see what is happening.

That's what happens in real life and especially in groups. The private means just doesn't work. I'm tired of repeating this basic point.

I agree with your basic premise here, iota.
I wish it could be that simple; and that others would be that honest, and supportive.

Unfortunately, when I have, in the past taken a stance which was not popular on an open thread; I was attacked publicly, only to discover; to my detriment, that they are not.
As others have stated herein, it does not happen here, or IRL like that.

People will be "sneaky", hurtful, and unkind (I have not ever understood why, here or IRL?) They will be confrontational just to see how you will react.
I wish, with all my heart that it could be as you say; but it is not. Others watch with fascination, rather than involve themselves...human nature?
This is why I try not to post on open threads anymore; and, also--this time out; I do not "Thank" or "Hug" publicly. Yes! I was actually confronted on an open thread:

"Why did you "Thank" that post, Theodora?" No one did anything. Nasty! Confrontational, all I had done was press the "Thank" button!
So, now people want to know why I do not even "Hug" button or "Thank" button? They think I do not thank others...or hug...I do! I do it via private messages to avoid further confrontations. I reply to newcomers, and friends, and open threads via Private.
I left here for 5 months, deleted my account; the vileness and sneakiness of others made me more ill than I already was! I could not afford the time or energy to battle the rude, disrespectful behaviors of others on the site.

I am going to post this. Watch what happens...I won't be back to view it either...
as I've said in the past? "I wrote what I wrote, it stands, I mean it from my heart! Have at it!!!......let the arrows fly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! La di da! "**garrin**

Kudos to you iota for bringing up this most valid point! Thank you.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by Virago

I agree with your basic premise here, iota.

I wish it could be that simple; and that others would be that honest, and supportive.

Unfortunately, when I have, in the past taken a stance which was not popular on an open thread; I was attacked publicly, only to discover; to my detriment, that they are not.

As others have stated herein, it does not happen here, or IRL like that.

People will be "sneaky", hurtful, and unkind (I have not ever understood why, here or IRL?) They will be confrontational just to see how you will react.

I wish, with all my heart that it could be like that; but it is not.

; I do not "Thank" or "Hug" publicly. Yes! I was actually confronted on an open thread:

the vileness and sneakiness of others made me more ill than I already was! I could not afford the time or energy to battle
Kudos to you iota for bringing up this most valid point! Thank you.

YES!!!!!!!!

Sometimes, without considering what place another person is in their life...

seriously, being able to disagree or agree openly shouldn't be something that could destroy and traumatize another, I've been ganged up on, not here, but elsewhere...

Someone said, I had the 1000yard stare back....

reporting because of popularity, or is it more than that???

Iota, yes, thank you for the validity of your point,

[-jimi-]

Is someone is actually attacked it is NOT an argument. I had issues with that on another site because a person constantly picked on me. If I ignored her she got 100x worse, and if I told her to stop I was told by the staff I should take my arguments into private.

Problem is it wasn't an argument. Compare to real life, if someone gets abused you don't put that person in a room with the abuser with no support.

If it is not allowed to protect yourself, it probably still is better to ignore than to go into private. If you do, you are on your own and that can be very unhealthy. Better pretend the attacker doesn't exist. And it is not against the rules.

IMO.

[DocJohn]

Nobody can "see" what's happening, even if it's in public. There are two sides to every story, and usually when we're asked to intervene, we hear only one side. Then when we get the other side, we see the story is more complicated and complex than the first side let on. It can often involve, for instance, two people who were online friends, but had a falling out.

Airing the argument in public just creates more drama. It doesn't really help to clarify anything, since a person can act any way they'd like to support their position.

We're not about drama here, we're about providing people a safe place to get or give emotional support. Inevitably, because we're all human, not everyone is going to get along with everyone else (and it's idealistic to believe that's possible). This is true in any community -- online or offline. We've setup a series of guidelines to help us with these issues, and guide our behaviors so we maintain a safe community.

If you feel some member is "abusing" you or another member (or stalking you, or harassing you, whatever...) -- whether via PM or in posts -- let us know via a PM to myself or any admin. We can look into the matter privately, and reach a resolution. It may not always be the resolution a member wants, but we act in the fairest manner we can to all sides.

I appreciate your feedback, thank you.

Best,
DocJohn

[justmemaybe]

One of the best things Doc ever told me is use the ignore button.

[archipelago]

I say again that the best way to handle someone who is personalizing and potentially bullying is to call them on it in public, right where it happens, so the person being targeted has the support of other members, and the person who is out of line has the pressure of social accountability to behave themselves.

Like someone said about being put in a room with an abuser, the private way just invites even worse and rarely works even if you try it.

I believe as a peer-run group the power of the community to respond is healthy and reminds people to stay in line. That's how real groups run. A little meta- or processing conversation is built in just in case something gets off track. It doesn't cause more drama; in fact it resolves things quickly because there are other people watching. Then you can get back to the discussion that was getting off track. It is part of almost every group to have this sort of mechanism so people feel protected and safe as a built in structure.

I'm just asking you to consider it and see how it might work to help things. You could set a limit of two-three posts that are slightly off track and allow that little amount of wiggle room so people can work things out for themselves. I think it actually reduces the potential for harm and drama to be more open to the idea that some processing takes place in certain kinds of discussions. Trust the process and the members to keep it going.

[unaluna]

Iota, I just wanted to say that I feel better keeping things public, so I appreciate you formalizing it for me, i.e. working out the reasons. Obviously I can't keep anybody from going private, but I agree it has potential for abuse and exclusion.

[DocJohn]

Thanks we will consider it for the future.