[Onward2wards]

I'm not sure why, but proper assertiveness doesn't feel good to me. It feels unsafe. It feels like I am being arrogant, or rude, or expecting too much. The more strongly a situation demands assertiveness, the more I either get defensive or apologetic or turn into a two legged marshmallow.

I CAN say "No" quite easily ... but only if I then give a two page dissertation as to why I am saying no, delivered on high quality paper in triplicate. Sometimes I get the urge to say "No, and I'm saying no because I just feel like being a jerk today, that's the only valid explanation I can come up with." (Luckily I don't actually say this).

The worst of it is if I have to say No to an authority figure, and/or someone I don't know well, which feels like waving at the tide and demanding it go out just because I say so. I feel pretty intimidated and stupid. Saying no to someone I know well and for a valid reason is very uncomfortable but not as horrible.

This is getting really, really old. I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do.

[glok]

Hello, Onward2wards. You have a choice to make, establish and maintain appropriate boundaries or accept the status quo.

[pfeffa]

First I have to thank you for making me chuckle with the second paragraph of your post. It was the "high quality paper" -- everything after that was just gravy.

I have a horrible habit of apologizing to everyone, even strangers, when I feel that I have made their lives difficult or uncomfortable in any way. I apologize when I am spaced out at the nail salon or when I am passing someone in a supermarket. With friends and co-workers, it is usually an "I'm sorry/ thank you" combo deal. It has become my signature.

I know that Glok is right when mentioning establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries, but I lose sight of understanding that when I am so caught up in feeling the need to apologize for any inconvenience created by my wants or needs.

Maybe it starts with honoring and respecting our needs as valuable and necessary?

[Gus1234U]

meant in the kindest way, but i heard that self-denigration is the other side of the coin of narcissism. always thinking about oneself, only negatively. it might be hard-wired, barely changeable, i don't know. the one thing i am sure of is that Self Acceptance is crucial to any peace of mind. i hope you find some {{{ On2 }}}

[healingme4me]

One step, could be slowly breaking the I'm sorry habit. Monitor, as you do this. Ask yourself, is it even worth an apology?

I'm sorry, truncates the assertion, as it is. Sends a mixed message. Saying maybe some other time, is a method, if you truly mean it.

Pardon, instead of I'm sorry, if say maneuvering the grocery aisles.

Tough habit, to break.


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[pfeffa]

This link may be helpful to you regarding finding ways to feel comfortable with setting boundaries, Onward2wards. I am still exploring it.

BOUNDARY MANAGMENT THERAPY

Thank you for this thread; it has helped me explore some issues i have needed to address.

[awesomeness05]

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

I'm not sure why, but proper assertiveness doesn't feel good to me. It feels unsafe. It feels like I am being arrogant, or rude, or expecting too much. The more strongly a situation demands assertiveness, the more I either get defensive or apologetic or turn into a two legged marshmallow.

I CAN say "No" quite easily ... but only if I then give a two page dissertation as to why I am saying no, delivered on high quality paper in triplicate. Sometimes I get the urge to say "No, and I'm saying no because I just feel like being a jerk today, that's the only valid explanation I can come up with." (Luckily I don't actually say this).

The worst of it is if I have to say No to an authority figure, and/or someone I don't know well, which feels like waving at the tide and demanding it go out just because I say so. I feel pretty intimidated and stupid. Saying no to someone I know well and for a valid reason is very uncomfortable but not as horrible.

This is getting really, really old. I'm kind of at a loss as to what to do.

I think I may understand a bit of what you mean. I have terrible issues with being assertive, but you have to be gentle, but firm in setting boundaries. But it's very hard. do you have a counselor you could talk to or a workbook you could work through? those things really help me.

[healingme4me]

Have a real life example, just now in regards to over saying sorry.

Caught myself not saying sorry...

Came in front door, but landlady's mom, almost got the door, but didn't, was coming from basement/ porch area...instead said,
I didn't mean to almost get you with the door, you ok...it's ok she said, physically showing ok. Didn't burst in, was gentle anyhow, because knew they've been in and out working on that floor.

Feel, i'm sorry, would be an over doing of expression. And truly no sorry necessary, both were being careful, she and myself.

Small steps, help retrain the mindset.

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I think I understand a little.

I almost always end up saying yes simply because I feel the other persons needs are more important than my own.

I've been working on trying to accept that I'm not a bad person but even that feels like I'm being self important and over confident.

Originally Posted by Gus1234U

meant in the kindest way, but i heard that self-denigration is the other side of the coin of narcissism. always thinking about oneself, only negatively. it might be hard-wired, barely changeable, i don't know. the one thing i am sure of is that Self Acceptance is crucial to any peace of mind. i hope you find some {{{ On2 }}}

Thank you for that. It's a thought I've been trying to find voice for for a while but could never quite get it right.

[Perna]

I would work on self esteem. When you are doing what you need to get what you want and need, it is not difficult and does not feel bad to tell people yes/no; here I am; sorry, I can't do that right now. Don't worry so much about hurting or discombobulating other people, you are reinforcing hurt to yourself when you waffle -- waffling gets one in the habit of more waffling!

[Onward2wards]

A bit of humor can go a long way. I am the Waffle Master - who wants breakfast?

[H3rmit]

Maybe it feels unsafe because it is - it's a risk. When you're assertive things can change, not necessarily the exact way you wanted. Then you have to adapt to something different, something I'm not terribly fond of. I'm pretty assertive though. I feel compelled to act in most cases. I'm that unreasonable person who wants to change the world (in small ways, but I wish they were big ones) rather than adapting all the time. (Maybe you don't have my issues with being rigid and inflexible and even a little bossy.)

A loss at what to do? Start with the smallest and simplest thing. When you say no, DON'T explain. All you have to do is withold your action and feel. And figure out what you're going to do with your mouth, hands, eyes, rather than babble explanations. (I do the unnecessary TMI thing, too.)

[Onward2wards]

Thanks for all the feedback. I suspect I am a bit TOO adaptive sometimes. I don't want to violate other people's boundaries, neither do I want to risk being badly judged or inviting hostility, so I mimic a small puddle of water and then regret it a second later. Then I'm angry with myself.
When I was very young I could be too pushy and opinionated. I think I am so keen to never do that again I've gone too far the other way and silence myself. Also, some people would push back VERY hard - or even resort to genuine bullying - so maybe I am afraid to stand up for myself too.

[Perna]

Realizing what is "yours" and what is the other person's can go a long way. Saying, "I like X", if it is true and you know it, what someone else likes, wants, thinks, etc. that becomes about them and can't touch you negatively. Other people cannot bully you out of your own shoes without physically assaulting you and that's not bullying, that's assault.

[hvert]

I love your line about the high quality paper.

I also share the feeling of needing to justify my 'No.' I wonder if other people don't feel that need -- maybe it is okay to say No, just because. It's a struggle to get there!

[BLUEDOVE]

Perna hit nail on head,you first have to feel you are
WORTH being assertive FOR! I give you the name
of the master of all things in self-esteem:Nathaniel
Branden . . .is BRILLIANT!

[SeekerOfLife]

This thread has made me very uncomfortable. It is very hard for me to be assertive. I also have anxiety. A few days ago, I was trying very hard to help an elderly woman in home care. I was polite even though she was grumpy. Finally, after assisting her on and off the toilet, she told me I was worthless. I was blindsided by her remark. I almost left then and there. But, I said to myself, "No. You said you would make her bed before you left."
I realize now that I did the wrong thing. I allowed her to get away with treating me with disrespect. I cringe as I write this. I did not set a healthy boundary for myself. I was also concerned that she would not sign my time sheet (and I would not get paid).

Any comments or suggestions?

[wife22]

some say assertiveness is a learnable skill My husband is very good at it ,saying no without offering explanation and ,amazingly, nobody even asks for one,I suppose over the years people realize that some things are just the way the are.I've tried to say no,am trying,but as you said On2,it is followed by apologies and explanations,which eventually make me feel and look weak,indecisive .One has to learn to own it,whatever response it will be,be ready for people to be surprised and even upset ,if politely rejected,just because they are so used to having their way.I recently came to the revelation and understanding,that by being agreeable and extraflexible for the sake of keeping the peace,I lost the respect of the same people,on the verge of loosing my own identity .It's a daily reminder to be firm and not to get into extensive explanations,because I'm worth it and my decision is worth being respected,even if it is as minor as disagreeing with choice of food.Take care(On2)

I have the same problem with assertiveness as well. I try seeing it this way: the fact that you feel bad about saying no might mean you are thinking deeply about its consequences. Although it's best not to worry so much about how others feel when you say "no," it does show you care about the changes saying "no" might bring. Once you learn to say "no" more, you'll probably be much more thoughtful about it than someone who just says "no" willy-nilly.

[healingme4me]

Originally Posted by seekersinking

This thread has made me very uncomfortable. It is very hard for me to be assertive. I also have anxiety. A few days ago, I was trying very hard to help an elderly woman in home care. I was polite even though she was grumpy. Finally, after assisting her on and off the toilet, she told me I was worthless. I was blindsided by her remark. I almost left then and there. But, I said to myself, "No. You said you would make her bed before you left."
I realize now that I did the wrong thing. I allowed her to get away with treating me with disrespect. I cringe as I write this. I did not set a healthy boundary for myself. I was also concerned that she would not sign my time sheet (and I would not get paid).

Any comments or suggestions?

Well, since some means was paying you to be there, you are clearly far from worthless.

Finishing the shift work, shows work ethic and integrity.

Nothing wrong, with that...

Working on quippy comebacks that won't get you fired...there's something to be learned from that hostile angry elderly lady..



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[SeekerOfLife]

Follow up--
If I had left, I am sure I would not have lost my job. But it is likely I would not have gotten paid. I hate, hate, hate confrontation.
Just remembered a quote. It goes something like--A coward dies a thousand deaths; a hero dies but once.
I still cringe when I remember this incident.
The best thing I learned from this is that I still need to work on assertiveness.

[SeekerOfLife]

Still working on assertiveness. I think this will be an ongoing effort. I liked where someone said that an explanation is not necessarily needed.

[squirt151]

Used to have the same problem myself. Now I just politely say sorry but I won't be able to do that for you. Give no reason. It is hard but it gets easier.