Disengaging

This thread can be for anyone who needs support to disengage from anything that is triggering to them.

Rather than fight, flight, freeze or fawn responses to anxiety provoking triggers, to disengage is to calmly stop, or walk away, or keep silent or speak calmly.

After fruitlessly doing the above trauma responses, I am hoping disengaging will bring about better results, letting the moment of conflict pass without incident.

From the moment I wake, he’s off with an anxiety provoking agenda. I feel sad, lonely, frustrated that it’s never how I want it to be. No matter how I have communicated my needs, they will never be met. I wish I had disengaged sooner. Though, I am proud that I was able to after only one hour of his whirlwind struggle. I jumped off the struggle bus this morning (yay!), but wish I had not even gotten on. Maybe I’m getting better at this and next time will not engage at all.

This is interesting. Except that i need to engage with my hoard in order to disperse it. But maybe if i can disengage the feelings somehow. Or engage the feelings but not flight fight freeze or fear.

I got tripped up in a conversation that seemed to turn to make me look bad. Scratching my head as to how that happened. That felt frustrating to be a part of. All I said was I’d just take a ride to see if the med was at the pharmacy rather than this whole discussion about it. It felt like I was getting grilled as to what kind of a call or text I got. I felt like I was testifying, shish. He barked at me, “Why do you have to be like that?” In front of our son, who was frustrated from the circular conversation leading up to that conflict. When I went to put on my shoes, he called the store to see if the med was there. It was. He ran out to the store, preventing me from going...why? WTH? Everything feels like so much struggle. I’ll try to keep more quiet, gray rock, don’t trip into it. I couldn’t be any more boring!

In my case, I recently realized that, for me, disengaging was burying the hurt and being too much of a coward to engage people about important things. Sometimes engagement shows love. Sometimes talking about things to others rather than the person that hurt us might mean we haven't forgiven them (and they might have hurt us because they are unable to show their hurt and cover it up with anger). I know that occasionally, when my H and I fight, if the fight gets too intense, we bring up things we did to each other in the past. I only recently figured out I am not as forgiving as I thought I was. I beat myself up sometimes instead. But am becoming a little more brave about letting other people know when they have hurt me. It can be hard to discuss things sometimes. It can be hard to let go of angry words. My H and I are figuring this out and I pray that my children will eventually understand all the collateral damage all of our hurts and misunderstandings caused. It is the hardest for the children to figure out a parent is a mess and understand it.

Thank you so much for this wonderful thread.

I had disengage with one of my sister who feels she is better than everyone because anyone who married to any branch of military is better then everyone else and knows more about every topics there is all due to her own jealousy. Even though what my sister had said had really hurt my feelings because of how she has bullied me over the year’s. I chose to no longer have any contact with her even though she has come over many times.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I could have written this myself. Grey rock grey rock grey rock.. yep!

We can try all we can but it's not sustainable.. and they do catch us off guard because we're HUMAN and not designed to be a grey rock.

Stay strong! Continue teaching yourself about how to prevent yourself from the circulation.. it's exhausting!

A strategy that helps is to repeat yourself again and again. For example, he questioned you about the medication. Just say, "My medication is ready and I'm going to pick it up." Doesn't matter what he says.. again, "My medication is ready and I'm going to pick it up.".. and say so as you're putting your shoes on. Invite your son to go with you. Easier said than done. I've started doing this via text.. literally, copy and paste.

Tisha, another strategy I use when I notice passive-aggressive or attention-seeking behaviours is to turn on the "happy" mood. It's easier for me to do because I have young children so I engage in play with them while also including dad somehow.. the including dad is the important piece, as if you're "oblivious" to what's happening and are "just having loving fun". .. then BAM with the grey rock if he becomes direct about whatever "issue" he has.. and alternating between the two.

Not sure if this makes sense or not.

It sounds like he doesn't trust you. You may never know for sure what he is thinking/thinks that he is heading off by preventing you from going on your own. Finance issues? Issues about you seeing others when he is not there? It must be something like that though sometimes we can let things grow in our mind until they get past reasonable...

I am also ??? about him rushing to the pharmacy when you said you wanted to go. It would be hard for me to disengage with that instead of being annoyed and angry.

I never heard of the fawn response before but recognize it as something I do!

This morning I was asked to provide feedback on a program I'm not enjoying. It feels like a double-edged sword - they ask for feedback but I don't think they really want it. I spent twenty minutes trying to figure out a diplomatic way of expressing my thoughts. Disengaging is a better option.

What's the fawn response?

Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy

Pete Walker, M.A. Psychotherapy

I found Pete Walker’s website through my googling, searching for answers. I think he added the Fawn response to the other F’s.

I think my h ran out the door so I didn’t because he is trying so hard to show me his value, like I can’t live without him. I know it sounds strange, but that’s what that was about. It’s ridiculous, because I do not feel at all like I secretly wanted him to do the errand. I thought it would be a nice break for me to get out of the house tbh. But he functions at this level of anxiety. He is overly doting in some ways but will not simply engage me in the relationship I need. Like he overly shows he takes care of us to compensate for how he doesn’t in the way that matters to me. And why can’t he? He just can’t. I’m not angry at him because he’s not capable. I really need to just accept it and learn to disengage from my obsessive wanting it.

I don't know your husband. But is he the type of person who tries to show image to others like this? With some people, there isn't much to try and mindread because what they show is what you get. I thought of this because you also mention that he is not able to engage in the relationship itself. I.e. he doesn't sound like the emotional, affectionate type.

Also if he's this type then he may be action focused and anxious to do things and that would be a possible drive for him to run to the pharmacy rather than demonstrating value, image, intent.

Sorry if this was too trivial or something. Just my thoughts.

I like the thread BTW... it's something I'm trying to do internally. Like, not externally because I'm able to keep in the trigger emotions and I just get extremely tense instead. I actually have a thread about this in the ptsd section. If I could disengage INTERNALLY, I would not have to be so tense to the point of scary muscle cramps sometimes even. If I could disengage like that, there would be no more problems with this... Or something.

My therapist said to just accept what has happened and not panic. It sounds like you get anxious ne tense and freeze up. I get panicked, frustrated, want to flee and give up. I have emotional meltdowns. Both ways of dealing with these stressful, conflict situations are not working for both you and I.

Being around people and situations that are enjoyable and not traumatic are ideal. But sometimes we just can’t avoid it due to people who we have to deal with or situations unavoidable.

Thanks. That is interesting. I don't know what I am feeling when I get so tense. But I think it's a sense of terror/horror mostly.

What would qualify as freezing? The tension for me is because I hold it all in and try to keep control. Is the freezing about avoiding feeling the emotion? Because while I try to keep control like that - half intentional, half automatic - I definitely don't feel it properly.


Your therapist makes sense, my problem is though that I would first have to know what really happened before I can accept it.

When I'm able to figure it out in retrospect sometimes, then I'm better able to accept it yeah. But I have to figure it out first to know what it is I am accepting. If that makes sense.


...I think what I'd like is, be able to disengage before I even know what it is, because I know oh it's "just" a trigger/emotional flashback right? I don't need to know more in the moment, can figure out the rest later yeah?



PS: Oh well. I can do that if I've rebuilt enough of my sense of reality. Like after cPTSD you kinda get it all garbled up. Lose the basic sense of safety and things both internally and externally are messed up and all that. So if I rebuilt enough normalcy, then it's like, I can contrast these triggers against the normal background and know they are no big deal then. Make any sense?

Freezing is to tense up and go blank, be afraid, not act. There are responses to trauma; fight, flight, and freeze. I’m more fight/flight. You may be more freeze. If you can see it coming, and can avoid it, that would make you feel in more control of yourself. It’s an awful, helpless feeling getting triggered and falling in it.

Hm, yeah I hold back from feeling the emotions (terror/horror/whatever) so much that I don't actually feel afraid or helpless.

Do you think it's a strongly controlled freeze response then?

What makes me shocked thinking about this is that I originally was fine with fight until I was told I shouldn't do that because anger is inappropriate and blah. But ofcourse it would be an overreaction sometimes if I was to express anger or too much anger, but it was like I was disabling anger internally too. And that's just not okay by me. I've been working on undoing that.


So I mean I didn't originally mind acting. I just know that I do not want to act on triggers if I know they are just triggers. So if I am not seeing clearly about the stuff then I have two choices by default: fight or freeze.

And if I disable fight that means I hold back from action or from expression of anger or even from FEELING anger. And then I feel very tense in a crappy way like that.


It's just no good, oh well. I've been working on restoring my anger (without overdoing it btw). Because I think I still like fight more than freeze, unless I know the fighting would be seriously destructive because it's just such an overreaction in some cases, if the trigger/flashback is strong enough, very strong.



Anyway I don't expect you to comment on the above, you just helped me think.


But I'm interested in this: what is it like if you know IN ADVANCE that the trigger/flashback is coming and then you actually can avoid it?! I'm very interested in this.




PS: I also added a PS to my previous post lol but that was basically just saying, gotta be patient, while sorting out more of this stuff over time. lol sigh

Are you aware of your triggers? Are they basically always the same? Are you aware you are about to be triggered and able to avoid it? That would be ideal!

For me, I have the same basic triggers, only a few things that really cause me a trauma reaction. They are only from a couple people closest to me. An acquaintance may say or do something very upsetting, and I may get upset, but I wouldn’t call it a trauma reaction and I can just let it go and may not like them anymore. It’s the closest to me who really push my buttons. I don’t know if it is those people who press those buttons, and say, if I replaced them with new people close to me who were not the kinds of people who would do those same button-pressing behaviors and I would not be triggered at all. Is it possible for me to avoid being triggered? If so, that would change my life for the better 100%

Ha ha yes it would be ideal!! No, they are not always the same because it morphed over time when the cPTSD got worse. I think I learned enough to avoid making it worse (retraumatising) so I can try and focus on this now, categorising all the triggers and sort them out over time. It's just hard yes. Takes time to identify what memories are linked and how and what they mean and how to categorise it all and how to find working boundaries about it all and so on. Then yeah I can see what you mean, then I would be able to anticipate them...


Also you asked if I'm aware of them, well I'm aware of my own reactions like I described them, I'm not aware of when they happen when I'm around other people. More aware of when they happen when I'm alone, like I'm able to deal with them better because of that, if they come up when I'm alone.



Yeah that is a good question...I think closer relationships have more risk for problems like this in the first place. Because we are more emotionally open and they know us better and know better where they can try and hurt us yes, if there is too much stress and stuff and can't mutually disengage in time. Like spending a lot of time together when there are problems, mental illness, or extreme life stresses, then that is when it gets risky in my experience. Maybe that's just my experience but that was when I got a worsening of my cPTSD with someone close to me. Yes I could say the person had some sh*tty sides to them but they were also under more stress & undiagnosed mental illness and everything and I was too. It is a long story but if we hadn't been close (or if I hadn't felt close at least) then it would not have affected me so bad. Plus it affected me so bad because I already had cPTSD, it just retraumatised me there.


But I think overall my answer to your question here is if two people are both mentally healthy or at least they keep working on themselves if they have issues, and there are no extreme life stresses, then I don't think there would be this button-pressing and triggers and any of that. And it's possible too that only one person wants to work on all that and then the relationship just won't work eventually if the other person doesn't want to. That's actually what happened in the above example with me (where I ended up retraumatised).

So yeah all in all I think if you keep working on your trauma, your triggers, and spend time only with people who also work on theirs if they have any triggers or whatever other problems, then there won't be the same old button-pressing stuff either. It really just feels like to me quality relationships require all the advanced skills you don't get taught in school and continual personal growth.

PS: I don't know if you have cPTSD too or PTSD or childhood trauma without extra severe PTSD symptoms, for me the worst triggers/flashbacks go beyond button pressing stuff, or maybe I just feel that way because I feel like if I don't contain myself then it would end up being so destructive and expose me to more retraumatising situations. Button pressing stuff to me sounds like I'd get seriously upset but not feel a risk of retraumatising. It still doesn't sound like fun though lol and I do have the buttons too so I know what you mean. I want to have the worse triggers/flashbacks convert to button issues and then just work on those without the extra concern of retraumatising. I'm getting there though. That is where I would also be able to link them to memories, process them emotionally and then anticipate them more. Other than that, I think the stuff on retraumatisation concerns would fit more in the PTSD forum, so I won't say more details on it in this thread.

Nice to see you back Fuzzy!

Working on the opposite response...not all willingly. Was taught as a child that anger was not acceptable. As I grew up was told don't get angry. Be quiet, hold it in, walk away, that's being a responsible adult. The tail I was told was by our neighbor who had totally redecorated her formal dining room. Her husband made a sarcastic comment. She picked up a big plate of spaghetti and threw it at him. He ducked. Plate hit wall, spread all over new carpet and newly redone chairs. See anger accomplished nothing.

Now after years of therapy the anger is pouring out all over. Never learned how to ameliorate anger. My T compares it to learning to tie a shoe. More complicated then it seems. But learning to do so eliminates triggers. Not avoid them, not deny them, not build up the anger inside.

lol. That tale... That's not simply anger. That's uncontrolled anger. Controlled anger is good, uncontrolled anger is obviously not.


This is very interesting to me, the bolded. How does it eliminate triggers or help with not having to avoid them?

I was trying to analyse some response of mine above, TishaBuv thought it was a freeze response but I am not so sure myself. I can't really tell what it is other than, emotions are very disconnected with my attempt to control them ("white knuckle" syndrome). The emotions, they could be fear, anger, I don't know. It's situations where I used to either just do my normal emotional detachment or be angry in a controlled way. Before more cPTSD of course, I mean.

But if I could fully get rid of this thingy, whatever it may be, and if anger helps with that, I would love that because I'm good at controlling anger, but as part of the cPTSD in recent years I was gaslighted into thinking that I shouldn't be angry where I would express it in a controlled way alright before. And then I got more triggers and this weird response to triggers as above.

I realise that I did get more triggers because I'd turned off my normal protective mechanism (thanks gaslight) where it would protect you from exposing yourself too much, obviously. Against more abuse and gaslight and everything.

I stopped buying into that gaslight and I've restored some of my anger and my vitality along with it. That helps with lessening these triggers too, yes.

So I may partially understand the statement you made, yes. (If you have more to add, I'd be very interested.)


But I don't really understand how you do your therapy to get rid of all the anger that will naturally come up once you allow it back into your life. Like, it will definitely be VERY uncontrolled anger at that point, about the abuse and all the bad things.

I'm good at controlling anger for normal life situations. Harder for this stuff. Understatement.

I of course understand that you do have to rework and integrate your memories and create an interpretation that you can have about accepting what bad things happened and how. And that in part helps with finding responses that control the anger and achieve better direction/allow you to leverage situations more effectively. Even if those situations would otherwise be heavily triggering.


But, I would really like to understand how you manage to release, pour out all that uncontrolled anger. And. How long does it take before it gets better, before you no longer need to do it that much?

Especially, how do you do it INSIDE the therapy context? Does your therapist allow you to become angry (not attacking her/him of course, not even making eye contact with them let alone any threatening gestures towards them)?

I've had a big problem with how MANY therapists are unable to tolerate even a bit of anger display, even though I would not behave in a threatening way. Just becoming more loud, or my body language being strong (but not directed towards them whatsoever), etc.

I did once have a therapist who I went to a couple times before she managed to hit on a really bad spot with one (not very careful?) question. And then I really - almost fully - lost it, I wanted to throw everything in that room, wanted to punch a hole in the door leading to another room, or whatever wall was there, wanted to kick over the plant (some small pine tree thingy), etc etc. I jumped up and sorta started doing so but I didn't do either of those. I did keep control enough. Then in the end, I lied down on the floor and cried.

It did help me effectively remove the fresh trauma bit I received that day - long story, I lucked out by having my appointment with the therapist the very same day while trauma (retrauma) was fresh. I know when I was travelling to her office, I felt all hot in my head but the anger would not come out and I know it would not have without that provocation the question provided. And then I'd have internalised it. This way however, I was able to get through it, remove it in time. Then I did not have a leftover from that day, except a tiny little bit of some feeling that went away on its own in 2 months.


It was too much for her though, she said she is not able to work with such issues. Most other therapists I've been to did not get the luck of witnessing this kind of rage, they just had a problem even with a little "loudness" etc. One of them even tried to manipulate me into the idea that any anger is not acceptable.

So I just wonder? Are there any therapists that do this? Is it part of trauma therapy in ANY kind of therapy model?

PS: The issue I mention above that came out in such strong anger. It was strong for me yeah, I'd otherwise never behave like that in front of a therapist or anyone. So... As far as the issue itself goes, I started working on the cognitive processing of it much later so I no longer need this much anger about it, I think. I still have some, though. Still very hard to control especially if someone deliberately triggers it (this happens yes). So I still run into that issue of a trigger over this very long-term trauma issue, and it's still a valid issue with me being able to do therapy properly. Especially during lockdowns, of course.