Disengaging

@Alive99 Whatever we feel as emotions are genuine and natural. Something provoked us to feel them, and our feelings are a result. There’s a spectrum of how badly provoking something may be which will warrant a corresponding reaction.

If someone cuts in front of me in line, I may be a little put off for a minute and have no reaction. But, if something happens that shatters me, I may throw spaghetti against the wall!

We know to be in society, we can’t become violent or there will be bad consequences to us. So, we have had to hold ourselves back from acting out like we may want to if provoked badly enough.

Nobody’s going to tell me it’s not okay to feel anger, when I feel anger. I’ll get angry at them and likely tell them where to put their anger. . But, I am working on controlling my angry responses because they never get me anywhere good and only work against me. It is hard to control holding back anger when you feel it so intensely. I now try to walk away and cool off.

It sounds like something severely traumatic happened to you and you are trying to cope with how strongly it is making you feel. I understand you are working on getting to a place where you can feel free from the intense emotions that go with what happened, so you can lead a happy life.

Personally, my therapy experiences are that I cry hysterically in expressing my anger and frustration. Maybe it’s fear deep down, too. I don’t act out, I act ‘in’ (hard on myself). Rather than physical violence, it’s crying. Although, I’ve been so angry that I’ve had fantasies of doing damage…doesn’t everybody? But, of course, I’d never act. But the thought is entertaining.

I never showed any anger toward a therapist. Some of them said some pretty antagonizing things to me, too. I had mentioned the comment one had said in another thread, and it really got under my skin. In that moment I didn’t react. It hit me when I left her office and cried all the way home and shouldn’t have been driving. I didn’t make another appointment to see her again.

I’m reading a book now about BPD called “Stop Walking on Eggshells”. It talks about anger is really deep down fear. So when I am angry and frustrated that I am not being heard and respected by my husband, I really must feel fear that he doesn’t really love me. I am getting mad at him to deflect from the fact I am afraid of losing him. This is a new thought for me that I just learned from this book. I’m still pondering if I believe this is true and letting it sink in and reflect on that idea.

There are other hurts that i felt very intensely. In time, I did reframe it so I could stop holding a grudge. When the hurt was fresh, I felt it. But in time, I told myself that person wasn’t capable of better. They really weren’t. I was fooling myself to have thought they were. I had given them too much credit. I tend to do that a lot. So, I am not angry at them anymore. But, I don’t think as highly of them like I used to.

What would you teach your child now about feeling anger?

I’d validate that we feel feelings and that makes us human. It’s usually best to not act out in anger and avoid a confrontation usually. But sometimes, I’d say there’s no holding back. If someone was attacking one of my kids, I’d be a raging mama bear to protect them.

Did the spaghetti look better on the wall than the redecorating she originally did?

@TishaBuv

Thank you for your response. Yeah, I'm ok with avoiding violence of course, but not feeling anger at all...that was a bad idea.

Fantasies heh well I'm not good at fantasies, it's very rare for me to fantasise about causing pain or doing damage but it helped before sometimes. Yes it did...I'm just saying it's hard for me to release these emotions in imagination though. That I'm sure doesn't help with trauma processing.

I haven't read the book. But I don't really believe in using ideas to test them out...if that makes sense. What I believe in is feeling the actual visceral gut feeling, then I know it's what I'm actually feeling. So it's not necessarily fear with your husband but only you can know what it is. A book won't know, but it can give tips, sure. I just am saying, if the visceral connection isn't there to the feeling the idea is about, then I wouldn't want to believe/guess about it. I'm saying this because I tried that a lot before when trying to process trauma but it didn't really help me. The same thing with reframing, I want it to have these visceral anchors when I have an idea about what really happened. Until it has that anchor, it doesn't help me with trauma processing.

And yeah, I've also arrived to conclusions like you with it. Like not thinking too highly of them anymore. That's part of the process probably yeah. Being more realistic about what people are capable of.

So anyway yes I have those strong emotions that are so strong that I go all "freezingly disconnected, white knuckle" about them. The problem for me is when I get grounded, and can actually feel the emotions, I still have to process bad thoughts/beliefs from them. But that part feels easier...not easy but compared to being able to get grounded first (hardest part for me), hell a whole lot easier I'd hope.....

The emotions when I finally feel them fully like that are still very very hard to contain, basically. If you can contain them, you can control them and then you have a chance to process the cognitive aspects too. That's just me though. I have just found some very bad things today about how the relationship traumas affected my outlook for relationships. Now that's going to be some new phase of processing.

But yes, I've recognised more triggers too in connection with that.



PS. Thinking more about the book example you gave me. I think you can try and find other feelings, sure, check ideas and all that, like your concern about feeling loved, makes sense too, but you wouldn't want to disregard the message from the anger. What makes you feel like he crossed your boundaries, which is what the anger is signalling. That would be a good question IMO because then you can see what to do about it afterwards.

Just an update about my disengaging in negativity— I’m doing much better! . I am balancing relationships with triggering people, and not reacting emotionally anymore. I avoid the triggers where possible. When triggered, I am not crying and sinking into deep depression any more. I am not sure why this improvement has happened now. I am no longer on meds. My therapist is someone who listens and encourages me to accept without reacting. It must be that he is helping. . I have fought and cried all i can and it got me no where, so, logically, I have given it up.

I feel at peace with all my relationships and DO NOT want to get into it with anyone ever again. So, I will avoid conversations that will cause conflict and upset me. I won’t give nasty people space in my head!

It’s a nice day. I think I’ll enjoy it.

That's really great stuff. I really really do not want to give the negativity any space in my head. Really do not....I want it to all go away, the bad past too.

I did make progress too BTW....with the truly toxic people, I know how to not engage at all now. I ran into one recently, a guy, but I managed it really better than in the past, I did not talk to them at length, I simply called him out in one single sentence, about his unethical stuff, that line was very much bottom line to the point about the moral issue. And then I did not respond to him anymore, not even "innocent seeming" stuff from him. Nothing at all, nada. I don't need to spend even one single moment on them. The thing is it did ruin 1.5 days for me anyway, until I realised that I truly can just decide to not interact at all with him or with anyone else like that. ANYONE. That was so great. I do my bottom line calling them out or not even that, depending, and then full-on ignore. That simple..... even if they respond to my calling them out, I ignore that response. Or if I don't even respond at all, then that's just simply ignore right away. I do want to sometimes push back like that for a short time, being on the point with it very much and then disengage, because I do not want to internalise the negativity they tried to pour on me out of the blue. The difference afterwards is that I KNOW what to expect from them in future. NO LONGER out of the blue, no longer unpredictable. That's great too, I think. So I can push back like that and then disengage, without being surprised if they respond or how they respond (if they respond at all - in the case above he dropped it Well he tried to passive-aggressively hint but it was easy to ignore that fully).

But I want to be able to do the same to my negative past too, somehow. There were a couple bad people in my life, I'm fully past one of them, thank god. The other one....not fully yet. I've worked on it a lot but I need to finalise it. I can't wait to do it. I want to be able to be like.... treating it like the above. But for that I do need my bottom line I could use to call them out (even if only calling them out in my own head as I no longer talk to them). I feel I need to do that. Then I can move on..... Just be like, ignore. Just like you described it. !!

The lines that inspired me the most from your post here I think were:

"When triggered, I am not crying and sinking into deep depression any more"

"I won’t give nasty people space in my head!"

(Also this was pretty good for me: "I feel at peace with all my relationships and DO NOT want to get into it with anyone ever again. So, I will avoid conversations that will cause conflict and upset me.")

I know that stuff from the bad past can cause spells like that, like you describe, even if I don't cry usually, I just do go deep, low, loss of energy and all that. I want to not have to anymore. Not even for a few hours, not even if I remain half functional and not going totally acutely low into a crisis, I still do not want to lose even one day over it, not even a few hours!! These people are like strangers to me so are worth 5 minutes of my time, not even that tbh, 5 seconds even!!

I think my issue is I need to understand without any "bargaining" and "what if" or finding more of a "big picture" to be able to just say.....yes it all was nasty, and yes it wasn't my fault, and yes it's normal to have felt all the mess over it, because it was like I behaved my usual, in my usual, normal way, but they had done these nasty things anyway. It wasn't anything I did, if I ever try to consider what it was I could have done, then I'm back to disorientation and getting low and everything. And letting them push guilt, blame, etc on me. And so on....

I was able to deal with the loss of the good (or good seeming) relationship I had with the person originally. It wasn't easy but I could. But then they faked that everything was good, that I didn't lose this relationship. And they faked it only to get money and other services from me, to exploit me. That distinction I only figured out recently...... it shows how it was actually nasty, I guess. Doubly nasty and stuff.


I'm not going to write more about it here though. I'm just not able to share it with anyone and it just came out of me now. There was more but I don't want to go off topic and don't want to burden you or anyone, just can't share anywhere so it's hard sometimes lol. Sorry. Thank you again for this inspiring post!!



Enjoy your nice day!

@Alive99 You’ll get to where you want to be, emotionally, at some time in the future, and you are on your way. It takes as long as it takes. I believe humans get hurt emotionally, and heal, just like when our bodies are hurt physically. It just takes however long it takes. Just like healing our bodies; rest, self care are doctor’s orders for healing.

In emotional scars, it takes processing. I know psychology articles say to not dwell in the past, but I needed to do a lot of ruminating to figure out what happened, how much was me and how much was them, grieving, reframing, bargaining, lol… There wasn’t a thought I missed! And I think it helped me.

I have and keep making effort to repair relationships that went astray. Yeah, these people really treated me like they didn’t care about me… they really didn’t. But, for me, it serves me best to forgive them by realizing how they stand in their shoes. I eventually came to have compassion for them. I am wiser and will not be fooled into thinking they were the great relationships I thought they were, but I do want to feel connected to these family members.

IDK what happened with you, and I get the feeling these people who hurt you are not ones you want to reconnect to. It sounds like they were con artists who used and discarded you. I can say (without even knowing your story) that I am sorry they hurt you and that no one deserves to be treated like crap. I know it made me feel better for someone to listen to me, believe me, and tell me as I just told you. I hope it helps you in your healing process.

Thank you. I agree sometimes you really need to go back and figure out the pieces of the puzzle, the big picture. I don't even call that ruminating.... In my case they lied too much to me and gaslighted me so I had to go back and piece things together.

I'm glad if you don't feel you are fooled anymore thinking it's great relationships. That's similar to my case as far as that. But yeah, I'm not able to try and reconnect with them, they weren't family members though.

I've just processed some more and I feel a LOT lighter. I've just seen how this person manipulated me even more than I thought. How they deflected and weaved lies and I bought some of it so fast back then. It really really helps feel freer, that I see that now. It's sad, too. But I feel free from that now. I just have to process and *disengage* from the part too about how I thought it was good until they changed to this manipulative person. Maybe they always were manipulative like that towards people they didn't trust or people that they wanted to get stuff from. Maybe I saw a better side originally until it became like that with me too. Maybe they were manipulative originally too (tbh they were, with trying to get help from me, they didn't fully respect my boundaries right from the start...but it wasn't dark manipulations like later). But I just want to disengage after identifying this part too or whatever it is I need to realise about this issue.



PS: Is self-care defined in an individual way for everyone? I do feel like I'd like a lot more rest but I have to work but I know without work I'd have not been able to stay over the surface. Or that's how it feels. But it also adds a lot of stress and god knows how maintainable it really is.

Tisha, this is so cool that you got over it without reacting and put your well-being in the top. Good for you. I took my hat off before you. 😀

This is the right way. Noone can hurt you. This majes you strong. You only need time to master this behaviour. I’m learning like you.

Emotions can’t be stopped. They simply occur. And they happen for a reason. Sometimes prepare our body to protect ourselves or as you, Tisha, mention, protect our kids.
The problem is when these emotions can’t be handled and happen in contexts where our lives are not at risk. They are there nonetheless to teach us something. Maybe when we have to face to a grief for the lost of somebody, maybe because we don’t find in the other the response we are waiting...whatever, the emotions belong to us. Noone is responsible of them. As long as they are not life-threatening.
So, I think the most intelligent things to do is to consider them limiting their role and think that we are much more than emotions. We have also a rational brain part and we must give it the possibility to play its role also. Why? Identifying little by little these emotions and feeling them but taking into account that they are there for a reason and that this is their role to appear as a red light but they are only a part of us. Many times they don’t have another aim than recalling us a trauma, a last bad experience. They don’t have necessarily to respond to a reality but a fear, a trauma, etc.

Tisha, you named DBT, I’ve never done it but I heard about it and from what I heard it’s very helpful dealing with emotions. Indeed many psychologists nowadays, use some techniques that may be considered very close to this therapy.
Are you seeing a therapist? If so, is (s)he familiarised with the techniques worked on DBT?

Sometimes you just gotta tell those emotions "Hey this is bull****. Period". Lol.

I see a therapist and he is teaching me to simply not react. He says to just feel those emotions, identify them, and let them pass. They are just emotions and they always do pass. This has been very hard to do when those emotions cause a panic fight/flight response. I am getting better at it. But— I still can’t get past what triggers me and overcome it. Though, I am getting better at not letting it get the best of me emotionally.

I learned about DBT from others on here. They say it is a course. I’ll have to look into doing it. Dialectical Behavior Training.

When I look back on those emotional meltdowns I am very embarrassed and wish I could have not had them. I was telling myself ‘this is BS’ at the time, but couldn’t disengage.

IDK why I stopped the intense, emotional reactions recently. It’s like my body turned off the waterworks. I’m just happy I’m done with it whatever caused me to stop!

I’m not sure I’m out of the woods with it, either. So, fingers crossed…

So good, Tisha. Because this is the best you can do. Stop these emotions and process them. Of course, you are gonna-how do you say that- go up the walls sometimes. It doesn’t matter. You have reacted, someone (especially your husband) triggered you and you reacted, but you will realised of it and you being aware of it, it will help you to try to not react emotionally next time. You know why, because it’ s the most healthy for you. And you will become the leader of your life. Little by little.
You can’t change your husband but you can change and manage up to what point he will influence your well-being.

By the way, a very interesting thread, Tisha.
I guess we all share similar experiences or had to face to similar situations.

At a different level, I’m convinced we all have to face to daily situations when we feel triggered and have to manage our reactions.

Gonna tell you an example, nothing to do with a deep concern as dealing with a loved person as your husband. But, a strange in the street. A woman was walking her dog (she seemed not to be very skilful
with it) so she got angry at me because her dod wanted to meet my doggies that were without a leash. She got all angry and yelled out something like ( This f@cking bit$ is not gonna tie her doggies). I went all shocked but I said nothing. I thought: She has a bad day, sure. And I felt so good for not responding to her. She even cursed me. And I’m a temperamental person (I have gypsy blood running through my veins) but I didn’t want to go
through a hard moment or losing time by getting upset. I had my kids (doggies) to enjoy with. This person had problems. I’m sure she didn’t mean what she said. Something made her say what she said. It was about her, not me.

Oh, that's cool that it's better now. Hope it stays that way. Maybe you getting support from the therapist helps, like maybe you are not looking for it with your husband instead?


When I'm able to call an emotion bull**** it disengages me actually. Because I know why it's bull****.

But I have to first know that, yeah.




Yeah, for me the problem is if it takes too long to figure out the emotion and it takes me long for sure when it comes to personal matters......And while I'm figuring it out it does get in the way and that's a problem. So for that, this idea of "this is just an emotion and it will pass" does not work for me because it does GET IN THE WAY while it's there, while it doesn't pass, it is several hours per day and it means I have to wait until the evening or even until the night before I'm able to work without the emotions being in the way.

This dilemma/issue I don't see answered by this idea "it's just an emotion and it will pass"

It's very practical consequences, missing deadlines and the like.



Yeah the whole "emotions will pass" idea is from the distress tolerance thingy in DBT.

My issue isn't distress tolerance though. It's these practical consequences.

And I was so disoriented before about what's even going on that I didn't realise for a million years until I finally did recently, that the DBT workbooks and similar books talk about being "uncomfortable".

Uncomfortable?! Man... it's not about that for me. If these emotions were just uncomfortable, I'd be FINE. Lol that just sounds like an everyday problem, uncomfortable feelings, emotions to endure. No big deal.


But the actually problematic emotions get in the way and are hard to move out of the way. Hard because if I try, without knowing why the emotion is even there, then it requires an insane amount of energy that I just don't have normally, it requires me to mobilise emergence resources and you are not supposed nor able to use those resources constantly...... You can imagine.

So that's my problem, not that they are "uncomfortable". Lol when is it even a problem that something is uncomfortable.

But trying to move emotion out of the way without knowing how to do that effectively, it's the problem. If you don't know how to do it effectively is when it's gonna require a crazy amount of energy. I am doing it right now as I am trying to work atm. It still makes my stomach muscles sore.


So emotional dysregulation from cPTSD isn't easy or fun, lol.

Yes I'm discovering slowly why the emotions are there, what they really are about, but that takes very long for me for these personal matters. .... But when I know these things is when I'm able to effectively manage / move the emotions out of the way like that


***

BTW. As for DBT.... I compared it to stoicism here: https://mysupportforums.org/7082825-post20.html


What do you think? Do you like any of that?

That’s good how you had control to resist getting into an argument with her.

OK one more thing. My whole issue with this DBT idea of "emotions pass" is that this is only true of a subset of emotions. I don't like how it generalises to all emotions with that.

That subset of emotions is those emotions and feelings that truly are fleeting. Those don't require a deep solution, you can just ignore them yes, and they pass and you just do whatever, while ignoring them. If you get enough rest and relaxation, then you don't lose energy either from ignoring these fleeting emotions.

The problem is when you do have to go deeper for a solution for the emotion. And then it's not an emotion that will just pass.

I really want to ask one of these DBT therapists about what DBT says about that case.

I like you mentioned stoicism because Stoic school of Philosophy was always the one I always felt more appealing for me. 😀

Said that, I understand what you say, an emotion is gonna pass by but what can we do with it. Sure it will come back. What I see as an opportunity is that once it passes by, you will have a time to see things in a more objective way. You will have the opportunity to see the whole picture and from this, make decisions with a colder head. Maybe not at the first attempt but future ones.

I haven’t done DBT, I want to make it
clear. Only an approach to Mindfulness with my last psychologist.

That's cool. I don't actually have a stoic philosophy for my life in general but I have elements of it Iguess.



Yeah, it just seems like for me it takes forever when it's about personal issues.

Also I think you are talking about emotion that is being expressed? Because that is when it's like having a colder head afterwards.


But I don't even express and that makes the emotions prolonged too and they "pass" even slower. Like I have to sit on it for days before it "passes" and I can't even do work for days then. Then deadlines pile up and ugh.


I don't express them because I don't have IRL friends left and I can't burden my family so I can't express the emotions often.


And if I do end up expressing sometimes, on my own, or sometimes to family or something, then I only pick up a little piece of the puzzle that got really complex over the years lol.




I haven't either, I have the DBT workbooks but I haven't done it with a therapist. I looked in the workbooks but I haven't found anything for my issue with expressing. It seems to be for people who express emotions easily and regularly.

Yes, interesting what you point it out.
I think it’ the same. What counts, in my own opinion and experience, is what you do with these emotions.

I went to phases where I kept them for myself and they poisoned me. They made me to even distrust people who were and are very close to me.
I didn’t know to handle them, give me a time and express them in a good manner.

Anyway, maybe, we were not talking about the same. Because, now that you mention about emotion that are always present I can now agree with you. I have an emotion that won’t ever pass, fear (unjustified fear).

I'm very interested in this. How did you get past this problem? I think former "best friend" probably had this too. It poisoned not only her but her relationship too with me. And probably with everyone else too

How do you express them now where you couldn't before? Do you share them with close friends, romantic partner, family?




They are not literally always present for me but yes they can last for days. (I just block them out and don't feel them at first but they affect me anyway)

I think there are lots of good therapies to work on fears, anxieties.

This is to give you background on my issues—I have had the same issue going on for 25 years. . This is the main issue with me, all other struggles I’ve had likely stem from this on-going one. It’s a bad marriage. The trigger is about intimacy. This is the main, if not only, real trigger in our otherwise good relationship.

So, when I get triggered and have to let the emotion pass, it does pass until I am triggered yet again. At times, I suffered intense depression for days, then the emotion lifted on its own. At times now, I get triggered (trauma reaction), and I remove myself from the room and let it pass.

I have not ended the marriage because I am torn as to how much of the problem stems from me having a disorder. One psychiatrist told me I ‘probably never would have been happy with anyone’. So, what the point of going it alone in life now? I’m scared. I’m lonely in it and lonely out of it. I can make better of my life in the relationship with or without him.

Honestly, IDK what will happen moving forward. We’ve been apart this week, on separate vacations, and maybe he’ll call it quits if I don’t first. I’m heartbroken it’s been so bad. It affected our kids. We’re all a bit messed up. It’s not all my fault nor his. It just sucks.

But, I digress… the intense emotions are temporary in those moments. Although they keep recurring, they do pass.

@Alive99 I just wanted to add this, which pertains to your thread about friendship, but didn’t want to derail yours and make it about me—

The two best friends from childhood— One, bff 4-6 grade, had actually kind of dumped me for a new friend she made and liked better. She didn’t exclude me from being with the her new better best friend , but I was then the third wheel. I didn’t really like the girl, thought she was super immature and annoying. The other, bff age 2-college roommate, had friction with my college boyfriend, so she distanced from us. After that, we moved away and lost touch for years. I later learned she had slept with my high school bf and had a relationship (the extent IDK) with my college bf behind my back. I tried to reconnect with her when I was newly married, but she basically blew me off.

Now, in my own defense regarding me having an emotional disorder… I think I handled these rejections with much grace. I think I showed high emotional intelligence. Heck, it took me a while to even recall how these relationships truly ended just now!

Ah. What is this intimacy trigger? Is he like cold and unresponsive to you? Or is this something entirely different?




I see, yeah, Ive been low for days too about things before but I don't want my life to be like that. That is exactly what I mean by, it passes too slowly, I lose too much time, it gets in the way too much, for too long. So the idea that it will pass doesn't help me whatsoever.




I think that psychiatrist was horribly unprofessional. Unfortunately, those exist.

Tbh I really don't see how you having an emotional disorder matters when it comes to how you feel in the marriage.




Yeah it sounds like it sucks a lot. Really hope you'll be OK moving forward here.




Thank for the stories. Somehow it helps reading about these things. Maybe it gives me perspective.

PS: I haven't yet noticed your emotional disorder on here.

^Thank you so, so much for this! I get along well with just about everybody and don’t lose it aside from the triggers from these very specific things! Thank you for seeing this and giving me validation!