Indecision

They’re in the other state because we sent them to college there. Our oldest went off to school, met his wife and their circle of friends, decided we were uncool Boomers, and literally changed his identity. They want nothing to do with us. As much as I felt a loving bond to him, and had never had one conflict with him, he did a complete turn around on us. He doesn’t want me moving closer. I’m only going to have heartbreak trying to nurture a relationship with him.

The other son is in grad school there. He works 24/7. My presence there would be an imposition to him. He’s sweet, loving, and caring, but I wouldn’t want to be a burden.

Our youngest is starting college there. I could be closer to help him if he needed something. It would be easier for him to come home for his breaks without the travel issue, and in my fantasy, the whole family could celebrate holidays right there in the same town.

I have had a fondness to the place because I was born there. It could be a new start in a totally different atmosphere. The people have a reputation for being nicer. Maybe I’ll make some new friends! I would like to start to actually work. I have a job which I do not even work in because it is at my own pace and my current boss doesn’t care if I do nothing…so I do nothing.

I hate that I have been a severely depressed, barely functional person for my entire adult life, since marriage! I want to turn around how I feel about myself and how others see me. I want to set a better example for my family.

Right now the clutter in my home is ridiculous. My in-laws passed away and we brought all their stuff into our house. I’m selling our stuff on ebay one chachkie at a time. I haven’t been able to park my car in the garage for two years because he stuck his car, that he doesn’t drive, in the space and refuses to move it, or start it, or fix it, or sell it. I hate living with a person who is such opposition!

It’s so overwhelming I feel stuck and helpless.

He initiates nothing that makes me happy. He only does what he likes. He liked clogging our house up with all that stuff and leaving it there. I like him to get rid of it in a timely, efficient way. It’s a battle where i have to keep annoying him to do what I want. It’s so frustrating, it’s just not worth it and I give up and cry—-major depressive disorder diagnosis but living with a tormentor!

TishaBuv I don't think I know enough about your marriage and your husband doesn't seem like he's necessarily all that self-aware or easy to deal with, but do you think he would be open to some sortof compromise if he thinks it's too much to move across states for an idea that he may be mistrustful of whether it would work out well? From your posts, he sounded like he liked the idea originally but then something about it made him too concerned. And what that something is, it would help to know.

For example, maybe if he doesn't have to commit to a whole new big change right away, it would work better. You also mention that he's concerned about money a lot, and that is where maybe he gets in his own way, liking the idea but then getting too concerned about saving money because maybe he would need it for some weird catastrophy in future. These are just examples though, I don't know him.

What I read about is that with these things with really bad disagreements in a marriage where no one easily sees a compromise, it helps discover what the parties in the disagreement really need. Like you mentioned you need some change of environment, for however long it may have to be, and you seem to need to have a closer relationship with your kids (and to your husband too, you said that in a post) and your husband, again who knows what he needs there. If he is not aware of his needs though or maybe he is aware but has no skills in communicating them, it's going to make finding a compromise harder, but it's worth a try. Without either of you getting triggered lolol we talked about that in the other thread, or at least if you can keep up boundaries about the triggers if it's possible to avoid those while discussing the issue.

But if he's impossible to work with on a compromise even when less stressed (after all the lockdown mess ends and you have more space etc) and even if you made sure you kept all your boundaries and avoided triggers, then I think that's a big red flag.

I'm so sorry to hear that it's been like that in the marriage and that is a red flag too to me. It makes me think he was not helping bring the best out of you but instead drained you and THAT'S the red flag to me. I thought it was just this bad with the lockdown. But your goal sounds very empowering!

Reading it all together it also makes me feel like your wanting to move to the other state is like you want to start a new life in a new environment because you are trying to find that empowerment? And that is what I mean by how big disagreements in marriage are pointers to deeper needs (this is what I read).



I have read (and tried it a bit myself) that to deal with guys in a relationship when they are like "no" or disinterested and won't do anything, if we leave emotions out of it when bringing up the issue it helps. I don't know if it always works, I saw it sometimes work in a relationship before...

(And I'm not talking about those deep disagreements on major things like your moving to a new state. I'm talking about more "superficial" practical issues like the one you mentioned here about the clutter)

It was overwhelming and terrible to me too and when sometimes I somehow got through to them in the way I described, it was really cool and felt like OH finally this is working with him?!, but it was also like it needed all my emotional control to keep the emotions out of it (because maybe it was trigger stuff for me....pretty sure it was, actually) so I don't know if that on its own is the solution because it was still pretty hard to do. I don't know really. I hope you will find the way to do what you want.

I don’t think it’s entirely healthy to have our whole identities wrapped up around our kids and husbands. Kids do move away. The world doesn’t end with it. Just go enjoy yourself. You can visit kids out of state.

Take the car out of the garage if it’s not being driven and put yours there. Tow the one that just sits there

Give him 30 days to move stuff out. If it’s still there in 30 days, bring a big truck, load stuff and take all that clutter to Salvation Army.

Take charge. You don’t need him to take charge especially if he doesn’t seem to care one way or the other. You can get stuff done yourself

Thank you, you made very perceptive comments, it gives me more to ponder.

OMG, I shudder to imagine what he would do to me!

He gave me the he’s sorry routine as usual, says he’s a nervous wreck and doesn’t know how to react when I spring new ideas on him…it’s true. He didn’t have to go say such a nasty comment about I don’t get along with anybody. He did it to hurt me. Why hurt his wife with emotional issues when he wants to put this on track? but, as usual, I’ve backed down again and said I still want to continue with him. I don’t have the balls to leave, still hoping we’ll learn to get along. It’s true, he’s more nervous than me. He’s a jerk who says and does hurtful things rather than helping me and building me up. I do seem to bounce back though. I guess this means I eventually have enough self esteem to forgive his stupid comments and actions. I go into deep depression, panic and want to end it and run, then back down and try to keep going with him.

I am more frustrated with myself than any of you here must be with me and I am sorry and thank you all for your kind support for so long on here.

Plus, I really feel like I need to be close enough to get to the youngest who is starting a very stressful program and may need some support. Not that I’m that much of a hover mom, it’s based on his anxiety and the very demanding major he is doing with a scholarship.

At least he did move his car out and mine is back in the garage.

I am flip/flop on all of this. I’m sorry guys. My volatile relationship is not okay. I am not okay with it.

You are right, Divine, I have no identity of my own.

What can he do to you?

If I’d toss out his belongings, he would wage war against me in any way he can. I’d never do such a disrespectful thing to anyone. If (when?) we really part, I’d certainly let him take his stuff.

Well then you keep living in the clutter. And park on the street.

I don’t recommend people throw away each other stuff. I don’t do such things either but why is it ok for him to disrespect you by not letting you park in the garage but it’s unacceptable for you to clear up the space for parking your car there. Why such imbalance. I know I’d be deeply depressed and anxious living in a mess, clutter and surrounded by stuff that isn’t even used. I am not surprised you are crying every day. I feel stressed just reading about it.

See we all live with choices we make. If you don’t want to rock the boat and disrespect your husband then you’d keep living like this and be unhappy. I am not saying you need to get a divorce but you sure should be able to park your car in a garage

There has always been such imbalance. That’s why I am so unhappy and crying everyday. Every word you say is spot on. I looked the other way about the clutter our whole marriage. I can’t even have people come over, it’s so embarrassing, and he probably does that on purpose. I need to work on my self esteem and figure out who I am, what do I like, and get the balls to do something to make myself happy.

I am not okay with his nasty comment he said intentionally to hurt me. I asked him to go away and do his own thing from here going forward. I think he left the house. His insisting that he has to be here for an 18 y/o who stays by himself in his room or goes out with friends is ludicrous.

My sister in law is a hoarder. My brother finally gave up and tossed stuff when she was out of town. I think it was 60 industrial size trash bags. We thought they’d get divorced because she was obviously very upset. Things smoothed over but she is not accumulating as much stuff. Probably scared he’ll toss it again. I mean he went overboard but over 30 years of marriage of this nonsense and she wouldn’t get rid of stuff pushed him over the edge.

We grew up with semi hoarding parents. We were embarrassed growing up. We have hard time with clutter. I am not a minimalist. I love my stuff but if it’s being regularly used, have value, looks good and in a good condition, otherwise it’s out the door.

I don’t think he’d qualify as a hoarder. He’s just never thrown anything out. He has his schoolwork from grade school. His parents kept it in their closet and never emptied it. When I forced him to throw out one small arts and craft item, he got upset, yelling, “I made that with my own hands!” Okay, so maybe he is a bit off kilter in that thinking. Lol.

It occurred to me that because he cannot throw out anything is probably the reason he can’t throw out me!

He puts stuff on every surface in the house, taking over the room, making it look awful. I stopped going into the den, I stopped trying to use the dining room, the bedroom the older boys vacated became a storage unit, full of dusty things. I can’t even go in there without getting an allergy attack. I am constantly taking the things he lets pile up off the kitchen counter and moving it to the other cluttered areas. I don’t fight with him about it. It would be too much of a constant fight. I haven’t even let this bother me over our whole marriage, although it did. I didn’t complain or fight with him about this!

If he uses something, it is left where he used it, he will not put it away. I will put it away.

At his job, he was in charge and others cleaned up after him as part of the job, so he is used to the entitlement, and I cleaned up after him, too.

When we first got together, I started cleaning and processing his stuff. He was grateful for it. He had a stack of newspapers, several feet high. He said he hadn’t gotten around to reading them. I threw out inches at a time while he wasn’t looking until one day he wondered where all his papers went. .

It bothered me that he wasn’t the kind of man who cared about the house and fixed things. He didn’t take pleasure in throwing balls with his boys. This sense of laziness was his personality. He was perfect and careful at work, then withdrawn at home. I accepted it.

In the long run, it hurt our family, and his relationship with his sons. It hurt them to not have that dad who takes interest in you man to man.

We’re having a peaceful afternoon, just my son and I. We picked out some things for him to take to college. He played me his wonderful guitar solos and some songs he’s writing.

When it’s the three of us here, there isn’t that one on one attention. It seems like it’s just more him asking our son if he’s done what he needs to be doing. They aren’t connecting, and I only get to really connect with my son when my h isn’t here.

That nasty comment he made, which was unprovoked by me, was the ‘hands to my throat’. It is clear to me to run. He truly hates me underneath his pretend love or he would never have made the lowest blow to hurt me like that. I know what I have to do.

It’s just me and my son visiting my mother today. I asked him to stay away for good, but he refuses, said he’d be back tonight. I’ll have to get the strength up for the lawyer again. I have horrific anxiety about that!

My sister has it worse and she stays and doesn’t react. My mother only was miffed that her SIL wasn’t coming over to dote on her on Mother’s Day and made zero comment of support. I actually told her, “I need support and if I’m not going to get any from you, well, it is what it is.”

I guess his barb was not enough for my family to say get out. What if he had physically assaulted me, would they have said run?

So, now I am backing down once again, no more steam. He’s acting like nothing happened. He said he was sorry for the comment and that’s it.

I personally don’t care who other people stay with and why. What’s ok with your sister is irrelevant. There are men out there women are married to but I wouldn’t even go on one date with them. And they maybe wouldn’t like my husband. Who cares. You do what’s right for you. Not for other people. Why would your family tell you to run if you don’t even tell yourself to run. You give too much power to other people and their opinions.

I talked myself out of being so angry at his hurtful comment. “You don’t get along with anybody”. All he says about it is he shouldn’t have said it and it isn’t true. He just did a knee-jerk reaction to hurt me because I had a new idea after we had decided on a plan.

Honestly, I had to go back and re-read this thread to remember what prompted him to give me the nasty comment. So much happens with him, I don’t even remember what happened yesterday. It’s rapid-fire dysfunction and I’m punch drunk.

I don’t feel like he’s done anything to me bad enough to justify me ending it and leaving in anger. I keep going back and forth from feeling optimistic like we can get on a normal track to we have to end it to save our sanity. I don’t trust myself anymore because I know I get the fight/flight response and say it’s over but then I turn around and say I want it to work.

Meanwhile, he keeps doing the same exact triggering behaviors to me that I have told him infinite times I can’t stand. I have a traumatic reaction every time he does it and he never learns! I back down and keep forgiving him. I honestly don’t think he does it with bad intent. He simply is who he is and no matter how I can’t stand the specific things he does he is going to keep doing them. I am going to keep getting triggered. We are going to keep fighting. Then I am going to keep backing down and saying I want it to work. Then he is going to say he wants that too. But it will never last more than a day or so!

I can keep praying. I keep saying the Serenity Prayer. I can try to stay calm when he does the triggering behavior and not respond, but we will never really enjoy each other as long as this persists.

There is so much good about him. I don’t talk about how good he is much on here. I only rant when I’m upset. Lord help me see the good and not respond to how much he triggers me.

I’m not leaving him. I won’t keep kidding myself and seeking support from you very confident folks. I am too terrified. I have a disorder. I believe the psy who told me I’d probably never be happy with anybody. So, I am blessed to have a nice man who is willing to put up with me.

Is he Asperger-y? I'm thinking the clutter, the not-so-great social skills, the limited relationship with the boys.

Several people have suggested that. I have asked our therapists and psychiatrist and they scoff. But, I think there is definitely some aspect of something on spectrum happening. It could be part me, part him. Neither of us have anything severe enough to have been diagnosed.

I think I’ll try to look at this as though we are dealing with this issue, and see what kind of skills may help us.

He does not ‘get’ me and what I like. No matter how many times he has done what I hate and I have expressed it in every non-violent way I know how , he keeps doing it. He doesn’t really have empathy. I have seen him show some empathy, but just a bit in a moment where anyone would look like a callous POS if they didn’t. He wasn’t nasty or abusive with the kids, but gave them little attention. He was much better with them while we were all vacation together and we had good times.

I do have the sensory thing that is mentioned for people on spectrum. This might explain my hatred of the intimate things I can’t stand. I’m also really sensitive to itchy fabrics and hate being tickled!

No. If he has an issue it would be more like Obsessive Compulsive Personality Disorder. That type of person can have hoarding issues, is not great with emotion (understatement), and really really does not want new ideas.

But I would not want to diagnose from a distance.

It could be the extreme stress from covid/lockdowns, doesn't mean he has a full-on personality disorder otherwise.

They could also be just really incompatible, seeing that TishaBuv likes ideas and this guy seems to be really triggered by them, liking to stick to his plans. Which is completely not TishaBuv's fault, it's totally valid to like ideas and stuff, it would just be an incompatibility between them.

On top of the incompatibility he could have *traits* of OCPD, but doesn't have to have the full personality disorder. Again, diagnosing when we are not qualified psychiatrists or clinical psychologists is not a good idea.

Yes. It seems like, it could be helpful to categorise which things are triggering to you and which things are triggering to him. And find a way to avoid those. Or it could be impossible to avoid them, and then it would really be an incompatible and unsustainable relationship.

But I am concerned about this post of yours here, because it to me does feel like a toxic pattern in the relationship (without necessarily blaming anyone really). You could seek out resources, books on those relationships. I think it would really be helpful for you. I was in such a relationship before.

Basically, if you regularly feel like you have to end this to save the sanity of the both of you, that to me qualifies as toxic, unfortunately.

And then there is that part to toxic relationships where people are stuck and want to keep trying to make it work. That is very familar to me too. VERY. It's especially negative and draining if you are the only one person really trying. But it's still toxic if both of you are honestly trying. It reminds me of trauma bond, too (you can look this up too, there are good books on it).



One more comment here. Please do not kill your anger, I am sure it has a valid message for you, you just would want to figure out what it is. But to me it sounds like it signalled the extreme boundary violation. As he knew that that psychiatrist told you that *****, yeah? Don't allow yourself to minimise the issue and don't minimise yourself along with it. If that made sense. I hope this helps. It is just my own personal experience, that anger designed to protect you has valid messages, you just have to process it on your own first.


He was able to take responsibility for it afterwards, which to me sounds like a good thing yes. As far as his personality not being full-on disordered if he is able to take responsibility. Unfortunately it doesn't necessarily make the relationship itself less toxic.

I'm not religious, so I hope what I'm going to say here is okay (feel free to let me know if you are bothered by anything, though). So, I just don't think God would want you to keep suffering in a toxic relationship.

And yes, I'm sure he has a good side. Like the way he was able to take responsibility for his hurtful and manipulative or hateful behaviour (to me it does seem that way, my personal opinion).

And this is where I really wanted to post IMMEDIATELY. I was about to wind down for the night (and I'm going to bed after this post) but I saw this and I felt like this is very serious. If you frequently have thoughts like this then you are letting your self-esteem erode, and that's just an absolutely big no no long-term. Whatever he is doing to make you feel this way it's NOT OKAY. Whatever he's doing to make you feel drained is NOT OKAY.

Again, he may have good traits, yes, but if you two are fundamentally incompatible, it's going to bring out the worst sides of at least one of you. Especially under extra stress, but in everyday life too. If you try harder than him at all this then it will bring out his worst side more than yours. Simply because you would be trying to avoid your own worst side coming out and putting in a lot of effort for that, while he may not be doing as much effort for it himself. (And then is he really a special, very nice man? More nice than average?) But that will mean you really make yourself drained and let your self-esteem erode and let your energy drain away long-term. It's a gradual process. Please do not allow that to happen to yourself!

I HOPE this helped some. Please, do not let yourself get stuck this deep, and come back and become empowered like you had nice goals before. And if it has to mean ending the relationship, then that's just what it is. I really wish you good luck to whatever you decide to do to preserve your fundamental well-being!

Maybe he needs a Goofus and Gallant refresher. I just googled it on amazon, and found a Doofus and Darling book of etiquette for men.

But i was thinking goofus and gallant because i keep thinking back to when i took a dale carnegie class, and some of us did not get recognized until we started recognizing that other people existed in our lives besides ourselves.

And the h reminds me of a guy in class, an engineer, who also reminded me of myself, in how he treated his wife. His great breakthru was not yelling at her for how she baked the brownies.

That makes sense to me. If he has some OCPD traits (but even if not the full-on OCPD disorder), then yeah a professional wouldn't mistake that for Asperger, they have differences in traits even though they both are bad at emotion. It makes sense to me also that you are saying neither of you has an outright disorder like that to get diagnosed. To me it overall really seems like a major incompatibility between you two, especially emotionally and in other preferences too (e.g. his planning vs your liking ideas). I had the sense before that you two don't read each other's motivations because of this incompatibility. Like it's hard to understand and read each other accurately then. But that's just my personal opinion, I've not seen that much about your relationship.



I would chalk this up to you two being different to the point of incompatibility like I mentioned. But that's of course still just my personal opinion/impression. Your guy could have about average abilities for empathy but is likely not going to become good at it beyond average.

And you two could have this emotional incompatibility where you two just don't easily influence each other emotionally. I don't know if that made sense as that's truly just my own, highly personal concept of things, from my own observations having been in various relationships. Some people would naturally be able to emotionally influence me more and some just wouldn't be able to. Some would be able to, to a moderate extent. And so on. Maybe it's a chemistry thing.



The sensory sensitivities are not exclusive to ASD. They come with other "conditions" too, such as very creative personalities with the so-called low latent inhibition. I'm mentioning this one because it's not a disorder on its own yet it does often come with sensory issues. ASD or ADHD or other neurodiverse conditions can come with this too. But it's its own concept psychologically. The other such concept I can think of that's not a disorder but can have sensory sensitivities is HSP (highly sensitive personality).

Very perceptive insights @Alive99 all you said are things we’ve thought at part of this over all these years. I want to make this relationship and my life work and feel alright SO BAD!

I’m very grateful for this forum because I can talk about this and not feel so alone. I am so sorry to not really improve or leave or solve anything. But have much love for all you wonderful people I have reached out to and touched.

Very ambitious goals. All that together could feel overwhelming and then it's totally normal to feel it's like you're not really doing or solving anything. But I don't think that's true. The fact you are on here and talking about it and trying to figure this out is already you being on the way there.

Not liking tickling or itchy fabric or whatever other sensory things is a very common occurrence in a lot of people and at no point is a base of a diagnosis for autism spectrum disorder.

Also the husband here could be just not a match in sexuality department or just personalities don’t match. Or maybe people have some traits. I don’t know how it’s helpful to diagnose yourself or others with an actual disorder. We can talk ourselves into having every disorder on the planet by googling things and applying it to people and situations randomly.