The right kind of blue... do you enjoy some aspects of depression?

And Venus, thanks for this thread and for your refreshing, nonconformist views. You and I appear to disagree on a lot of things, but I think that if we met each other IRL we would really like each other. I hope that that doesn't sound too creepy.

If you ever come to Prague we a beer in every pub... and see Kafka's fave places while talking a lot

will respond to the core of your post laterz... atm, I am toooo slowed dooooown.

The ONLY thing I can say I enjoy about depression--if that wording doesn't give off the wrong impression--is the comfort and soothing when trying to ease the pain. I sort of remind myself of my grandson as he's falling asleep. He likes to have a plush pillow or stuffed animal nearby. Not for the pillow or animal itself, but so he can feel the softness of the silky fabric in the materials label. He soothes himself with that silky touch, and even continues to do so after he is asleep.

I'm like that. I "drink in" a soft touch. Not literally, but soft words and comfort.

Often it is hard not to take it personally when it is aimed directly at me......

Maybe you were triggered, because my post was not aimed directly at you. Oh, the compliments were, about the fact that I do see you trying. But my other information was not about you, it was about those that may not be able to take your approach as well as those who may suffer depression for other reasons as I had mentioned.

What I worry about are the ones that have already done some of the things suggested here and they are worse, continue to struggle and may not think about going off their birth control pills that may be effecting their hormones or maybe the change of life which can truely seriously effect some women.
Thank God I went to my gyno, took a blood test to check my hormone level, I had no estrogen count, I was really severely depressed and I could have suffered needlessly for a very long time. And I was not told that Lupron has a side effect of depression and even an early menopaus like what happened to me.

Some of your thoughts may help someone try something different. Some of my thoughts here may make someone look into something and find an answer that can end their depression. And a woman with a newborn may not understand her depression as well. I have had a few women come back to me after reading my suggestion and tell me that they never considered what I had mentioned and they did have problems.

Go to the Depression is thread and read away, I have never seen anyone there say they enjoy any aspects of their depression. Personally it is hard for me to visit that thread, I am very sad when I read that thread for those who feel what is described there.

Open Eyes

What's with all the hating on this thread?

It's supposed to be a support site for people with mental illnesses (amongst other issues) and yet I feel slightly disheartened by some of the replies to this thread.

Anyway. I felt a kind of "happy depression" earlier. Admittedly I am suffering from a bit of a manic episode, but it felt good, this "depression"...and then I realized how much I love each and every one of my friends.




RB ♥

((((Resident Bipolar)))))

I think that is why there is a trigger icon with the question. It has been said that depression is anger turned inwards. That may be true in different ways, it can be so crippling for some, some have it worse than others. And they are constantly studying the brain and trying to understand why it happens and how to resolve it.

For myself, with what I have, I have been trying very hard to understand how it effects me and like Venus I am trying to work it out in my mind thinking of different ways to address it. One of the things that really triggers me is when someone says"Just Get Over it" or that "It is my fault" or anything that is invalidating the fact that it is a real issue and truely not easy to overcome. Part of what I have presents things in my past that effected me in ways I could have never imagined. I honestly thought I had coped through many extreme challenges. I am extremely confused and even feel angry at the fact that inspite all my efforts, it caused real changes in my brain. In many ways when I read the opinions of Venus I understand what she means about trying to embrace an illness and find ways to consciously work through the challenges mental illness presents. I thought I could do it myself, but it is more complicated than I thought and I have needed assistance in understanding what it means to have acute PTSD. And I have to admitt that I have a lot of anger and frustration with it and I want to overcome it so badly, and often I have such a tremendous urge to somehow jump out of my body and leave all of the illness behind. I understand what she means about the frustrations of medication and even in doctors it is very challenging to make choices and even to trust.

The hate that is expressed in this thread is that of Mental Illness more than anything else. Sometimes members forget that when conflict arises it is arising through Mental Illness. Mental Illness truely effects one's perception of themselves, of others, and life itself. One thing mental illness causes is self absorbtion. Self absorbtion can go unnoticed in someone with mental illness. That in itself is a symptom of mental illness. In PC all the members are struggling with various forms of Mental Illness.
We come here for comfort and advice and even to hear someone else tell us that we are not alone and they feel our Mental confines as well. Outside PC, most of the members are very alone with their Mental Illness and very misunderstood. And I am sure that all the members wonder if they are capable of being able to somehow be a part of society and fruitful interactions amongst others.

The question put forth in this thread is not such a bad question. It is something that many of the members wonder if some of mental illness is somehow embraced or even a way to learn on a deeper level. By reading the different views on this question it can be interesting to see what others truely think about this area of Mental Illness. The is one of the things I personally like about PC, because it gives all members and opportunity to address their own personal feelings and measure them along with others, that is part of how we all learn.

As I learn about my own mental illness and became a member of PC, I was experiencing the symptoms of what I have and not knowing what they mean. I was progressing deeper into what I have, I began to see enough that showed me that I had to stop and truely educate myself about what I have. I have been triggered a lot in PC and each time I am triggered I stop and think about why I am triggered and then I learn something, something I had not noticed about myself. If we don't know what is broken how can we even begin to fix it? And we do need to think about what we do embrace in our mental illness that may not be helpful and may only serve to progressing further into the mental illness. It truely is a challenge, so presenting questions like this can be fruitful.

My input was to encourage seeking help and perhaps thinking about some causes that someone may not be investigating. I know personally that had I not been able to learn more about what I address, I may have been totally crippled by what I have. The more I know the more I can make efforts to address what I have better. I strongly recommend to anyone who suffers from mental illness to continue searching for all of the reasons and reality about what they might be addressing. If anyone is still suffering by all means continue to seek help.

As we all put forth our oppinions and questions we must truely keep in mind that any input we get is only coming from another person who may be struggling with a different disorder that may present different symptoms. We are addressing each other here from all over the world, all different cultures and living conditions. There are so many different kinds of mental illnesses here at PC which will present a variety of reactions in any thread presented. NONE of us are professionals or medical doctors, we are all doing our best to find ways to function better within our uniqueness, mental illness, and whatever environment we come from and live in today.

Personally, all I can do is present my own life experiences, what I have learned and how I have coped etc.
I am not expecting another member to think I have all the answers or that I am the all knowing, because that I truely am not, no one here is. All I can do, any of us can do, is put forth our personal oppinion and offer some ways to perhaps think about each others personal challenges differently. Venus is correct, none of us can truely know the depths of her struggles. All any of us can do is offer food for thought to the best of our ability.

Open Eyes

I think that it is easy, when depressed, to be suckered into liking some aspects of the illness. It's important to realize that it is the mental illness talking. Just my opinion.

Okay, so finally gettin' to reply to Secretum's long thoughtful post (I love long, thoughtful posts!).


If everything in the world is wrong, and death is better than life, and destruction is the first step to a new creation (presumably one in which none of us will exist), then I do not think you or anyone could be a "spoiled, ungrateful brat". No one owes gratitude to a world like that. Despair, anger, and whining make complete sense in such a context; if the world is such a horrible place, then we are the most cursed of all beings to be chosen to live in it.

I still view myself as having it better off than others... being born in the free world with all the opportunities and yadda yadda. I just want to be able to realistically appreciate it. Could be worse. Much much worse.

I often come to similar conclusions about the world when I'm depressed, but I do not enjoy it at all. If that is truth, then ignorance is the most precious bliss. Let me drown in it. When I feel that the world is nothing but a purposeless hell, and that non-existence is better than existence, I become really sui for obvious reasons.

Maybe it is not purposeless. Maybe - and I say this as believer in reincarnation - we are to learn and grow. And after all, the modern world despite all its alleniation and dehumanization is overall a good place. If only we could still be aware of our roots despite all the modern trinkets! Maybe feeling allieniated and realizing it is what is... instead of trying to cure yourself to be "normal" (normal. Give me a break. Normal are the people on Wall Street. Normal people invented the a-bomb...), one can try to do tiny bit of change... or speak up, because others feel the same....


I do, however, enjoy some aspects of depression. When I was young, it did open my eyes a bit. By forcing me to isolate myself, depression let me see my environment in a new light. Back then, this sort of experience was deeply calming to me. I can relate to Resident Bipolar; unfortunately, my depressions aren't like that any more. Now I just feel like crap.

I wonder how does one... prevent this from happening? How one keeps the happy depressions? Isn't it bit clinging to pathology? But if I was to feel bad about feeling miserable... not sure if that is what I want to pursue.... *sight*


(...)

Some of the conclusions I have come to are hard for most people to relate to, so I don't share them. I don't believe in free will, at all. People are objects, not forces. I truly am nothing more than my consciousness in this moment. The universe is infinitely dimensioned, and everything is true given the proper context. Sometimes I wonder if these beliefs alone are enough to win me my "crazy" title, but I can explain logically how I came to each conclusion.

I guess we differ here. We still can chose... even though many times it is like running in a labyrinth. But we can chose how to fight back, when it give up (surrender is sometimes the bravest and smartest choice to make), where to turn.... of course, sometimes we are helpless in this world and often it is not fair. We can still make the best of what we got.


I know that this is getting very long, but I have just a few more comments. The "cancer is pure pathology" idea seems good on the surface, and I almost accepted it. But then the biologist in me began to scream things about evolution and development. Cancer cells are so successful at establishing body-wide empires because they are extremely fast dividing, and they have disabled genetic programs that otherwise would have caused them to die. A fast growth rate benefits colonies of one-celled organisms like paramecium (whose DNA we have partially inherited) and it is important for early development. Not every aspect of cancer is abnormal; it's pathology stems from the fact that it is placed in the wrong context. Kind of like moods in mood disorders; mood is a good and useful thing when it is in tune with the environment, but when mood gets really depressed or elevated for no reason, it is pathological and life threatening.


I just used the analogy because we often see quite extreme position when it comes to "treating" mood disorders. When i see people asking "why I am sad when I am on meds" when they are in an objectivelly bad situation, I wanna shake 'em. Treatment of our condition does not mean we never ever ever feel sad, or even depressed again.... but it should be learning how to and be able to more effectivelly handle situation life brings without breaking down...

Open... I did not have problem with your replies, and you make valid point about underlaying conditions.

I just have problems with reaction of some people. It feels almost as dislike of success stories at times. Or pissing contest of misery.

((((((Resident Bipolar))))))

This is what concerns me about the balance of trying to embrace depression or a mental illness. One can unknowingly be simply progressing into depression even though they may think they can work through it. Resident, I hope you are seeking help to address your condition, keep trying.
(((Hugs))))

Open Eyes

Sigh....Yes Venus I know what your saying and I kinda of fear for your struggle and I try not to feed your lows or maybe your embrace of your lows. And the reason I get troubled sometimes about embracing the bad is that I was unknowingly going down that path myself. I just didn't understand what I had and I didn't even realize that I was feeding into it, getting worse. And there were times in my life that there were real reasons behind different depressions that I faced. I went through more than I should have, it was hard on me, and if I can say anything of my own experience that may ring some kind of bell in another that may lead them in the right direction away from bearing with suffering, than perhaps the knowledge and life experience I have will serve as a benifit to someone else. From what I have read in this thread, I don't see people necessarily lashing out at you Venus, it is more about different angers coming out and that is exactly what most threads are going to reveal on some level. It is the nature of the beast when it comes to Mental Illness and struggling to understand the constrictions of it.

Yes we can talk of historical figures that dealt with different Mental Illnesses and still presented wonderful novels and paintings and sculptures etc. But these people truely suffered and they didn't have a choice other than to make the best of whateve they could. I find it very sad, perhaps these people could have still created but didn't have to spiral down to a poor ending. We have so much more knowledge about mental illness now than we did back when these people struggled. And, we are learning more and more all the time about how to help people who struggle and even to help them understand themselves better.

The movie I talked about, that is a true story and the man that suffered with mental illness eventually chose to not take medication. But, he learned about what his mental illness was and it allowed him to be in the present and still live a productive life, whereas before he was NOT able to identify and understand his mental illness and he was feeding into it and it was getting dangerous for him.

Since I joined PC, I have, myself had so many reality checks that I honestly didn't see. I was sinking through every lowering level in PTSD and I didnt even know it. And to be honest, it was comments from members here that made me question myself enough to do more research, ask more questions in therapy and see things about myself that I truely didn't see.

Last year I was battling depression only I didn't really see it and my whole family was trying to recover from a lot of loss too. And everyone around me kept pushing me and taking over and I was sinking and didn't truely see it. And then one day in the morning I was trying to wake up and get my brain going and the front door was slamming and there was a lot of activity around me and the next thing I knew I went into a rage and I couldn't stop it. I took it out on my daughter and and she had been provoking it, but how I acted was not in my charector. It resulted in my daughter moving out and I honestly could not understand why I acted out like that. I truely love my daughter, worked my butt of for her to have a better life, I would never want to hurt her in any way. As time passed I grew more and more guilty about what I had done, to a point where I hated myself so much that I came really close to punishing myself to the extreme.

I asked so many different people why I would act that way. I had all kinds of answers. I had answers that told me that it was angels stepping into my body making the next step happen which meant get my daughter out on her own. I had someone tell me that my daughter deserved that and she was too entitled and it was bound to happen. And NONE of the answers I got from different people were true. The truth is that day I was severely triggered and that rage is part of my mental illness which was PTSD that was not being treated and was, instead progressing.

Now, I have had enough therapy and done enough research that I am allowed to walk away from fairy's into knowing facts about a real Mental Illness that I truely have to understand and treat.

I don't want to go down the fairy road Venus, the fairy road didn't help me. I was getting worse and had I not known what I was truely dealing with, I may have truely punished myself completely.

I don't want that for you, and I don't want that for anyone.

PC is a difficult place as I have mentioned because so many members struggle with different kinds of mental illness's and can lash out in anger.
I see that in this thread and I have seen it in other threads. It can be hard not to take it personally in every direction. Hopefully something will be learned. If something is learned or recognized by being triggered, that is what we, as members of a support group, have to find a way to forgive somehow. And it can be hard to see our way through these struggles that come out in the interactions of different members.

My Sigh in the beginning of this thread is not directed at anyone, it is directed at the stuggle we all have with Mental Illness and our efforts to understand it, find our way with it and join together in such a big support group with so many different kinds of Mental Illnesses. Considering the variety of Mental Illnesses here, it is a pretty calm supportive site.

Open Eyes

I guess I'm still bothered because to me the definition of depression goes against 'enjoyment'...

when you actually go find a definition
(Webster dictionary the free one I know of online)

now there are a bunch of different causes, feelings and experiences in depression. But almost all types include sadness, all these horrible things. Depression is never defined by any positive attributes.

how can you get enjoyment from sadness, dejection, hopelessness, lack of energy? if there was a way to do that I'd very VERY much like to know (and I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being 100% serious. I want it so badly)


Mind if I ask Venus, in short amount of words (because my depression is acting up and I can't concentrate ) to explain what aspects of depression for you create this kind of enjoyment you speak of. I'm trying to see if they are part of common depression, or if what you're experience is somehow unique in that way, or somehow, how you gain enjoyment from all these negative things? Learning how to bring positive out of negative is a great thing.

Shortly? Will try....

I think I explained it before and others made valid points... it is not "yay!" type of enjoyment. Often I am able to appreciate it in retrospect... There are phases which I am able to channel.... others i am not, they are worse and in that moment I do sometimes wish to be *gasp* normal. But I learned it passes... and maybe it makes me a stronger person.

I don't think saddness is "terrible" thing. It is emotion like any other one and sometimes it is highly appropriate.

And in the end this is who I am. I try not to hate myself.... So I am quite comfortable in my own skin... because I know that I will have to live with myself for the rest of my life. So I guess seeing the light is... the best way for me. Keeps me alive. And I think that is a good thing, isn't it?

((((((Venus))))))

and yes, that's a good thing

I still wonder though.... why is it okay to post "success story" about meds or therapy... and nobody jumps 6 feet up, even if these did not work for them. But when somebody posts about how existentialism or buddhism saved their life.... we get devalidated, we are told our view is not supportive, we don't know about science....

Isn't there enough stigma as it is? Why we need to reinforce stigma within the community? Because for me... I am not judging people for what way they take to get better. I do however have problem when I see people struggling, doing the same thing over and over again hoping this time around it will work.... and being encouraged in it.

This thread was meant to be as look outside of that damn box. I am saying what helped me. Herbs, zen, crystals.... and philosophy... that is my story.

If someone is properly diagnosed and have covered various health issues that can lead to depression and like you Venus finds something that helps them I don't see a problem with that.

I watched a special on the biography of John Lennan of the Beatles, who went on to his own song writing and private career. He was into Budism and minatras and he was very open minded. He was a very spiritual being and was truely liked by many all over the world.

There is nothing wrong with feeding the spitual side of each of us, it has been proven to calm and sooth and bring focus within the mind. There are some wonderful cultural ways that bring spiritual rewards. You are your master and if something helps you find a better inner peace it is your right to practice it.

There have been studies done that show that meditation actually shrinks the part of the brain that presents anxiety.

Depression is a symptom of different things so there is going to be some that respond to various spititual methods and others that don't.

Keeping an open mind is always very important. I don't think anyone is finding fault with you if you have things that help you feel better.

I think that your initial question might have triggered some that may have a more severe depression. But that is going to happen no matter what we present to others. I think some people truely hate their depression and truely struggle to find their way past it so the thought of embracing it in anyway can bring out some negetivity. It is just the nature of the beast of depression I think. If it wasn't that way you would not have to have put a trigger warning in this thread. Anyone here at PC can get triggered at any time. Yes, we all have things that can trigger us.

Open Eyes

I am not saying physical health does not demonstrate as depression. It does. I am talking about depression on the soul level here.

But you were the only one who pointed this out.... and I aknowledge that point. I do not fall for the "chemical imbalance in brain" theory as the only and sole cause of depression. And even if... we have to learn to live with our imbalanced brains in the ends, because so far medical science more or less fails making us happy-happy-happy forever. So how you deal when conventional science fails? Do you let it get you, or do you learn to get our your faults?

Well, thats a good question Venus. The one thing I have learned as I have a depressive aspect to what I deal with, is learning about what you have that can cause bouts of depression is important because then you can understand what you DO deal with and find ways to work around it.

The one thing I have learned by dealing with what I have and not being understood by others around me IRL, is to be more understanding of others that struggle with their issues that I may not understand. I have learned that here as well as people in PC have struggles that many just cannot understand. How can we know what someone struggles with if we don't experience it ourselves? I would not understand what I have had I not been suffering with it myself and it sure is very hard to explain.

I understand your concern about medication as well, I have not taken any antidepressants yet, I am not sure I want to go that route, it concerns me. But some people truely benefit from antidepressants, my therapist has to take them and he did try to go off of them but he just cant function without them. In his case it is hereditary on his mother's side. Oh, it can be very confusing, I hear you and can't blame you for trying to see if you can manage what you have in other ways.

But I do feel that it is important to find out what disorder is present and learn about it. Some people really do need medications otherwise they truely spin out of control and can even harm themselves. We do have to be our own health advocates and get more than one opinion and do our own research. It is challenging Venus, because often there is just a push for medications with troubling side effects and as you mentioned do they actually work. It is truely a personal choice and is not an easy choice. However there are those that suffer and truely cannot seem to just think their way out of their condition, that is sad too. I dont really feel anyone enjoys depression.

I am definitely not against trying holistic approaches, why not? It is a very personal choice.

And for your depression on the soul level, well, it is very hard to view our world and troubled politics without being upset by it. And we all wonder about our personal lives and what we will be and how we will manage, it is very important to understand what we can do on a personal level and what we cannot do.
It is very hard to understand humans as a whole, everywhere around the world. We have our own sense of values and it is very hard to understand how others simply do not care as we do or see things as we do.
At some point we have to find some way of coming to terms with it, and if someone has strong values, that person will see many upsetting things they find troubling. And there comes a time where you just have to make your choices and live your life out with your own values (soul) and do your best to keep your senses and find strength in that. But always allow yourself to grow, because you will change and grow the rest of your life.

Open Eyes