Does Anyone Else Have This?

I read her post as saying that the depression comes along and then the illness robs her of self confidence and self esteem. Accomplishing the simplest of tasks is very difficult or impossible. Lack of energy and motivation. I see these as symptoms of depression and not causes. I can very much relate to newgal2 as I know she has suffered a very long time with severe chronic depression and has tried many many things. Even to the point of currently trying ECT. I see the causes and the effects as being much more complex and varied than unconscious decision making for many many people.

I have absolutely no problem with anyone trying SNAP CLUB. I think I have been practicing the same concept for many years in the form of meditation, mindfulness, CBT, and AA's 10th step. I see those techniques as including your underlying theory behind snap club and including much much more.

It seems to me you have simplified the causes to - An underlying medical condition like hypo thyroidism, Vitamin D deficiency, toxic metals, and so on (these I think are a very small percentage of cases), OR the core underlying cause being your theory behind snap club. I am here to tell you it is much much more complicated than that. The best minds in the world who make a living studying it will tell you it is much much more complicated that that.

I think you have good ideas and your reasoning is sound it is just much more complex than that. Especially for those of us with severe, chronic, treatment resistant depression. I don't think snap club can hurt and it might help a great deal. I dunno. Discovering the core cause and solution is a rather bold claim. There is really no evidence. I have noticed that some people who were pretty excited about snap club and were trying it and having some success have posted since then that they were very very suicidal. I can't say how well it may or may not work. I have your success story only to go on. It would take quite a number of people reporting symptom free lasting results to have something to go on. There are only three or four total of those types of stories in depression success stories. Not much data to go on. I am pretty big on evidence based medicine.

But no I don't want to discourage anyone from trying it. I say try anything that has even a chance of working especially if it can't hurt and only help. I don't see it as a cure all or panacea though.

What is snap club? Anyways, I recognize myself completely in newgal's post. Going along fine, and then it hits me. But I am starting to see a pattern now that I am keeping a better journal.

See this thread for snap club.

http://forums.psychcentral.com/depre...escaped-2.html

Keeping a mood log and a journal is a very good practice. Mine is really a mood log and a journal and it is something I have been doing for years. For the past year I bring it in for my pdoc to read and it works out pretty good because I can't remember and I tend to minimize. This way he gets and accurate picture of how I have been doing and plus gets to know me. I just put everything in it. Journaling is very cathartic. Keeping a mood log for your professionals and a journal for yourself is a good option too.

@vital
I see evidence based medicine coming is three forms. A commonly wide spread agreed upon fact, or there is enough evidence now that we think this might be true, or there is just not enough evidence to say anything conclusive about this or that. All taking place after much debate research and study.

This would be among the medical community at large and include the best institutions in the world who study it. For example- John Hopkins, Stanford, Harvard, Oxford, the best teaching hospitals like Mayo, U of M, the Cleveland Clinic, or NIH and NIMH, the CDC, WHO, etc. The combined body of knowledge from the best possible sources in the world published in the best journals. Not the opinions and claims of one doctor here or there. Dr. Oz just got called to the carpet on claiming that green coffee bean extract was a miracle cure for something or other. He based his claim on one 17 person study in India paid for by the company that makes the extract. A recent study said that half his claims have no evidence whatsoever and he is a doctor. Claims have to be backed up by a large body of scientific evidence to be viewed as true.

Advising people on medication is a big deal and in my opinion should be based on the best currently available information backed up by the best reliable sources and studies and looking at the whole body of knowledge. Not one or two initial clinical trials or the views of one doctor or another. Not a whole lot is known about any medication that has ever hit the market until it has been out in the real world for some time and follow up studies are done. Many psyche meds have been on the market for a long time and much is known and much is unknown. If it is unknown we have to say we just don't know that yet.

I haven't done AA, but I've done meditation, mindfulness and CBT, and, at least in my case, SNAP CLUB felt very different and it worked really, really dramatically well. For me, it worked far better than anything I had tried including meditation, mindfulness, CBT, yoga, exercise, Celexa or Zoloft or anything else. I am sympathetic to where you are coming from. It SOUNDS like just a superficial trick. The thing is, I think it isn't.

That's the thing. I don't think that these conditions are rare at all. That's based on what Mark Hyman says about his own practice. Just to pick one example, I think that it's quite possible that large numbers of people who are being treated with antidepressants and therapy right now actually have depression from omega 3 fat deficiency.

It may be that depression is much more complicated that what I'm saying or that I'm right for some kinds of depressions but not for others, or I might be just plain wrong. I have suspicions about this but I certainly don't know the answer.

It is indeed a bold claim. It is a hypothesis with testable predictions only, at this point, as I hope I make clear in the note. I really do think that it is actually correct, though, partly that's from my own experience, partly it's because people who try it seem to feel it and seem to recognize their own experience in what I'm saying and partly because I think it makes sense with what is already known about depression. It seems to me that it makes a lot of sense in the context of the "learned helplessness" theory of depression and helps to explain things like the "plant study."

It is very true that there isn't enough evidence to claim that snap club is an effective treatment much less that the theory is correct. With something as slippery and susceptible to the placebo effect as depression I'm sure it's easy to be lead astray. I think I'll know over time. I've talked to several professionals in Boston. All seem to like the idea and at least one is trying it out.

In the mean time, it's safe, easy and even fun to try and you even know if it's going to do something for you pretty quickly.

- vital

Can you explain further what I'm saying that you're objecting to? I don't think I am advising anyone about drugs other than to advise trying the healthy safe things first and pointing to what I think are legitimate sources warning of the dangers.

I am actually concerned in the other direction zinco. I don't think you mean to do this, but I think you're acting as filter through which good news about drugs preferentially flows. I see you suggesting specific antidepressants to people and maybe unintentionally giving the impression that antidepressants are healthy for your brain or that a pregnant mother could protect her child from depression by taking antidepressants in pregnancy. I know that you only want to help, but I think that this kind of thing can be dangerous.

- vital

I think we disagree on what are reliable sources. If we want to warn of the dangers of psyche meds which do exist then it should be based on the best overall current reliable information. This has to be backed up by scientific studies. I have posted many reliable sources on what is known about the dangers of psyche meds. I don't think it is responsible to scare people about them unless there is lots of evidence that says something is true. You usually post a link to one video on youtube with a doctors opinion but no sources to back it up. In the one case of the Church of Scientology that may have been an honest mistake but it shows you didn't look much further than what was said in the video. Dr. Mark Hyman seems like a credible man of integrity but I do not know if his hypothesis have been proven. He talked the director of the Cleveland Clinic to give him a shot at proving it. So now he is doing clinical trials. Not related to mental health. We have to await the results and then others have to perform similar studies.

If someone asks me my experience with a certain med I will give it to them. If they ask for a recommendation I will give it to them. I do not see anti depressants as unsafe long term based on my experience, the experience of people I know, the fact that millions of people have taken them for decades, and what scientific information is available. I am pointing out current research which I am very much interested in. There is quite a bit of evidence that antidepressants promote neurotropic growth factors and neuron growth and new connections and may well be healthy for the brain. I know of no evidence that says thay damage the brain long term and permanently. There are studies that show that AP's and AAP's have metabolic effects and can cause long term brain damage. As we have discussed that is a highly individualized decision based on the benefits they are receiving from a certain med. They should be aware of the facts though. Many people make the trade off. It has been shown that on average people with bi polar ! have a twenty year lower life expectancy, so someone might figure the benefits outweigh the risks depending on what side effects they get and how much benefit to quality of life.

The psyche med section is for discussing psyche meds pros and cons and peoples direct experience with them. Decisions should be based on the best reliable information as I have said and I have listed multiple times what sources I consider reliable. Scaring people off of them can be dangerous.

Now I totally agree with you that I should not have titled that one post "Antidepressants and Pregnancy". That was a poor choice of words. I did not at all mean to imply they are safe for pregnant women. I don't know the data on that. I believe some are considered safe. This was one study on mice that had interesting results. I should have titled it "Study on Mice" or something. I actually copied it from the Current Events Section.

I don't see how I am acting as a filter. I am posting links to reliable sources on whatever the topic may be. I am not shying away from the dangers. In a recent post where I recommended Fetzima I pointed out the there may be side effects and possible withdrawals when stopping it. And I have often posted links on the dangers.

I don't see anything wrong with posting reliable studies that say antidepressants cause neurogenesis. These are real science studies and there is not just one of them. I didn't make them up.

There are at least 8 or 10 separate studies by prestigious institutions talking about antidepressants and nerogenesis. This is relevant information.

Neurogenesis and antidepressants.

Unraveling the Mystery of How Antidepression Drugs Work - Scientific American

Neuropsychopharmacology - Fluoxetine-Induced Cortical Adult Neurogenesis

Fluoxetine-induced cortical adult neurogenesis. - PubMed - NCBI

Antidepressants increase human hippocampal neurogenesis by activating the glucocorticoid receptor

Chronic Antidepressant Treatment Increases Neurogenesis in Adult Rat Hippocampus

The Future of Depression Treatment: The Neurogenesis Theory

Promoting adult hippocampal neurogenesis: a novel strategy for anti... - PubMed - NCBI

The Neural Plasticity Theory of Depression: Assessing the Roles of Adult Neurogenesis and PSA-NCAM within the Hippocampus

Depression

A Review of the Neuropharmacology of Bupropion, a Dual Norepinephrine and Dopamine Reuptake Inhibitor

How antidepressants spur brain growth
http://www.biologicalpsychiatryjourn...581-6/abstract

http://www.cell.com/trends/pharmacol...2814%2900165-5

Depression, antidepressants and new brain cells

I don't see how this is irresponsible. Something I posted last night I think.

For example if you list a study on the dangers of antidepressant done by John Hopkins and published in the journal Nature you will very much have my attention.

Or I will trust the below article much much more that what breggin has to say.

What are the real risks of antidepressants? - Harvard Health Publications

It does list Resources and References.