[Persephone518]

My husband has been struggling with alcohol addiction and (I suspect) possible depression issues. And before anyone asks, yes, I have tried to convince him countless times to consider counseling and medication. He won't go for it. We have also discussed alcohol treatment many times. He was recently sober for almost three weeks but relapsed this past weekend.

Today, we were talking and he confessed to me that he's not sure he wants to be alive any more. I asked if that means he was suicidal or considering killing himself and he said no. This was after I asked why he's been so morbid and asking my thoughts on the afterlife lately. He also said he hopes there's no life after death so that everything is just "over" once a person dies. When I asked what he means by this, if not suicide, he said he doesn't know. And that he regrets telling me because he knew I would freak out.

We are both widowed. That's how we met--at an online community for widowed people. We both know the horrible pain of losing a spouse. I am very angry and hurt now because I can't believe he'd be willing to put me through that again. I'm of the opposite mind. For instance, cancer runs in my family and I stand a high chance of getting it too, and if that happens I plan to fight as hard as I can and get every treatment available to me for my husband's sake--so he can have as much time with me as possible. I'm very upset that he doesn't seem willing to reciprocate. I take his statement to mean that if he got sick, he would simply let nature (death) take its course without regard to the feelings and well being of those who love him.

Back in March, I became obsessed with what life would be like if he died. I couldn't imagine any joy or anything that would make it worth living. Just endless emptiness and misery. I had a nervous breakdown because of this. I went into therapy and began taking antidepressants/anti-anxiety meds, and this has helped considerably. Until today. Now I feel like all of that has been undone and I'm spiraling toward another breakdown. The soonest I can see my therapist is next Tuesday.

Just feeling panicked and lost right now. And confused. And angry. I texted my mother-in-law, whom we're both very close to, and told her. Possibly not the best move but I felt I needed to let someone else in the family in on what's happening.

Anyway. I digress. Do you think that a person saying they're not sure they want to be alive any more is the same as being suicidal? How should I interpret a statement like this? What should I do?

[kindachaotic]

This is just for me personally, in my darkest moments when I would wake up in the mornings, I would get nauseated because I was still alive & had to face another day.
But, I never wanted to die bad enough to even consider making a plan.
Also never had any addiction issues thank goodness.
My pdoc increased two of my meds & that helped quite a bit.
Would your husband just consider seeing his reg physician about depression?
Wish you the best. Have been there with my hubby as well. He hasn't drank since 1997 but his depression is still a struggle.
You are not alone.

[Persephone518]

kindachaotic, thank you so much for your response. You've helped me feel more hopeful already. And serious kudos to your husband for almost 20 years of sobriety. That's no small feat right there.

My husband and I talked further this afternoon. He's feeling better as well for having gotten that off his chest. This is a really difficult time for him right now. He recently left a very toxic job that had driven him to drink. While there's no doubt that it was the right thing to do, he's feeling guilty about the good people he left behind and struggling to adjust to a new identity. We're also in the process of moving back to his home state. This too is a very positive thing that we're both excited about. He wishes we were already there because every day we're still here in Florida makes him feel like he's still stuck somewhere he wants to move on from. Too many reminders of his old job and other things he's anxious to leave behind.

Once we're settled in to our new home, I'm going to see how he's feeling and make the suggestion again (if necessary) that he at least talk to a GP about trying a mild anti-depressant. I may also suggest that he try cognitive-behavioral therapy like I've been going to. He's noticed positive changes in me but is reluctant to try it himself. Maybe he'll see things in a different light once we've gotten past the hurdle of moving. That's my hope anyway.

Thank you again for taking the time to respond and help me put things in perspective. I really appreciate it.

[kindachaotic]

Glad your hubby is feeling some better.
When we married he moved from his hometown which was an hour& a half away to the city I live in. That helped a lot coz he wasn't around his party friends.

Oddly enough my hubby just left a very toxic job as well. Did a 180 and now works in health care, orthopedics. He loves it & has helped with his depression.

Will keep you in my thoughts as you two start your journey on to a better life.

[Luciferscorpse]

I guess wanting to die yet not feeling suicidal is because of feeling numb or empty.

[HowDoYouFeelMeow?]

For me, suicidal is actively wanting to die. Not wanting to live (for me) is above that, but below actively wanting to live. Kinda like not caring if u get hit by a bus, but not jumping out in front of one.

[Pikku Myy]

I hope it gets better for you and your hubby soon. I can only say from what I have felt.
Everyone thinks about dying and going away, this is normal. Some people like me make plans when not quite there to expedite the process and start thinking it is better that way. Like constant thinking... In my case driving direct on with a semi tractor or worse yet.. popping pills. It is very good of you to realize your partner is depressed. I would force help, if you are so worried. I have been to the bottom of this illness and struggle every flipping day. Huggles to you <3

For me personally I wasn't actively planning self harm but was just tired of struggling. The way I put it was "If there was a button to press for it all to end then I'd press it". I do think these thoughts can sometimes spiral towards actively planning in some people though, I don't want to worry you unnecessarily but nor do I want to give you false reassurance.

It must be very hard for you to cope with what he is saying, but is the illness which is making him think and say these things by the sound of it, it is unlikely to be something he intends to upset you with.

You do not have responsibility to make him well, and you may have to accept his reluctance to engage with treatment, but if there is a crisis team and you are worried about him then maybe you can get in touch and consult them.

In the meantime take good care of yourself.

[DechanDawa]

I think a sign of extreme depression. And it sounds like he has an alcohol dependency problem which is going to make depression worse. He needs to make changes. As he is an adult you can only support positive changes.

I think it was good you spoke so openly with him and I think this is absolutely the very best thing you can do...so he is not alone in his mental pain.

[lizardlady]

It sounds like your husband's thoughts are related to depression and addiction. Probably doesn't help that alcohol is a depressant. I hope he accepts some help so he does not have to continue to feel the way he does.

Am going to answer your question regarding not wanting to live and suicide from a personal perspective. For me they are different things. In the worst of my depression I wanted to die. I had multiple plans to end my life. Therapy and meds helped me overcome that.
I have a physical disorder that causes chronic pain throughout my body. It is exhausting an debilitating. There are days I don't want to live anymore because I want to end the pain. I'm not suicidal at those times though. I don't have a plan. I don't want to die. I want the pain to end. Does that make any sense?

I've talked to my pdoc about this. For me, there is a difference in how the two situations feel. When I'm suicidal I want to die. I want everything to end. When I don't want to live because of the pain, I don't want to die. I want the pain to end.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

It sounds like your husband's thoughts are related to depression and addiction. Probably doesn't help that alcohol is a depressant. I hope he accepts some help so he does not have to continue to feel the way he does.

Am going to answer your question regarding not wanting to live and suicide from a personal perspective. For me they are different things. In the worst of my depression I wanted to die. I had multiple plans to end my life. Therapy and meds helped me overcome that.
I have a physical disorder that causes chronic pain throughout my body. It is exhausting an debilitating. There are days I don't want to live anymore because I want to end the pain. I'm not suicidal at those times though. I don't have a plan. I don't want to die. I want the pain to end. Does that make any sense?

I've talked to my pdoc about this. For me, there is a difference in how the two situations feel. When I'm suicidal I want to die. I want everything to end. When I don't want to live because of the pain, I don't want to die. I want the pain to end.

This is really interesting and eloquently written. I just finished reading a book called "The Suicidal Mind" by Edwin Shneidman. He wrote that people become suicidal because of a psychic ache, from thwarted psychological needs. You write that when you are suicidal you want to die, and I was wondering if you have identified the why behind it. Sometimes I have the feeling that everything in life is meaningless and trite and the feeling is, "Why bother? People's little bursts of happiness are short-lived and shallow. This is what I would call my own version of existential angst morphing into suicidal mind. But I have never made any attempts and frankly it seems like it is actually rather difficult and complex to orchestrate a successful suicide. To attempt it and botch it and end up worse off than before seems to me a true nightmare.

So I have never made a "plan" although I have contacted others to let them know how I am feeling. At this time I have an appointment in a month with a psychiatrist because my primary care doctor did not seem to be responding to my emails that my agitated depression was increasing alarmingly. I am proud of myself that I started to reach out for help, even if this is often a frustrating process. It kind of broke the little bubble I was living in, and I think that is what causes suicidal ideation to move towards planning, although I don't know this for sure.

I can relate to what you wrote about wanting to die because of wanting to end pain. I am sorry you deal with chronic pain. I would not be a very strong person if I had to deal with that. I am in awe of people who battle chronic pain, terminal illness etc. However, I do deal with mental pain. I think I have dealt with it my whole life. I usually get through periods of intense mental pain with a variety of things such as medication, therapy, and mainly waiting it out. My experience with mental pain fits your "wanting to die to escape pain" model to a tee.

I am happy you brought up about the alcohol. Some people have pointed out to me that alcohol is a central nervous depressant and therefore does not really contribute to depression. I am not even certain if alcohol goes directly to the brain. I mean, does it pass brain barriers? (Okay, I just looked it up...and it does go directly to the brain because the brain is part of the central nervous system. I was talking to someone recently who kept saying that the brain wasn't part of the central nervous system, so it got me confused.)

I know one thing...I am battling a virulent period of depression right now, and abstaining from alcohol helps. Also, sugar, junk food and the like.

Addiction is a whole other kettle of fish. This person could experience his depression getting worse after stopping alcohol because than the personal issues the alcohol use were masking are now unmasked and are there to deal with.

Bezodiazepines are now being prescribed to people who are in alcohol withdrawal. Don't know if that is a good idea, but it is a new treatment out there...

[adam_k]

I think there is a difference between being suicidal and not wanting to live. I think not wanting to live is because you are filled with hopelessness (possible for no reason or something unrelated to your relstionship). It must have been hard for him to admit that. I told my wife that once and it did not go over well. I believe her words were "if you want to kill yourself leave me first"

I think he was reaching out to you because he feels depressed.

I think suicidal is different. I think at the point were you are suicidal you just cannot cope with issues and you get consumed with dying. Everything becomes skewed and all you can see is the bad and want out.

I wish you and your husband luck in finding a way to resolve how he feels and find some healing. Talking is a good step. Try to be supportive and don't blame yourself or feel like it is something about how he feels about you. How he feels is most likely has way more to do with him than his environment.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by adam_k

I think there is a difference between being suicidal and not wanting to live. I think not wanting to live is because you are filled with hopelessness (possible for no reason or something unrelated to your relstionship). It must have been hard for him to admit that. I told my wife that once and it did not go over well. I believe her words were "if you want to kill yourself leave me first"

I think he was reaching out to you because he feels depressed.

I think suicidal is different. I think at the point were you are suicidal you just cannot cope with issues and you get consumed with dying. Everything becomes skewed and all you can see is the bad and want out.

I wish you and your husband luck in finding a way to resolve how he feels and find some healing. Talking is a good step. Try to be supportive and don't blame yourself or feel like it is something about how he feels about you. How he feels is most likely has way more to do with him than his environment.

You made some good points. You sound so very sensitive to the suffering of others, which is such a beautiful characteristic. In the past year some people have responded to my suicidal thoughts by getting angry, guilt tripping me, tell me I am selfish. I also lost a good friend who distanced herself. So I guess if you are talking suicidally then people do distance themselves, which is very sad. It also didn't help for people to just tell me to go to the ER of the hospital. You sound like someone who has been there, and knows how to pass on some good advice. I know your comments were directed at the OP but I just wanted to thank you because it benefited me to read your post.

[adam_k]

I have been there a lot. I've thought about it, talked to my therapist about it.

The scariest thing was telling my wife i had those thoughts.

I didn't want to have them and I think I was looking for some comfort and reassurance I was love and that things would be ok. The last thing in the world I wanted to feel is rejection. At the time, in that moment I just wanted someone to love me more than I was capable of during that period of time.

I came out of it and got some therapy. It helps. Having support helps a lot.

Originally Posted by DechanDawa

You made some good points. You sound so very sensitive to the suffering of others, which is such a beautiful characteristic. In the past year some people have responded to my suicidal thoughts by getting angry, guilt tripping me, tell me I am selfish. I also lost a good friend who distanced herself. So I guess if you are talking suicidally then people do distance themselves, which is very sad. It also didn't help for people to just tell me to go to the ER of the hospital. You sound like someone who has been there, and knows how to pass on some good advice. I know your comments were directed at the OP but I just wanted to thank you because it benefited me to read your post.

[lizardlady]

posted by DechanDawa

This is really interesting and eloquently written. I just finished reading a book called "The Suicidal Mind" by Edwin Shneidman. He wrote that people become suicidal because of a psychic ache, from thwarted psychological needs. You write that when you are suicidal you want to die, and I was wondering if you have identified the why behind it.

I believe my suicidal wishes had several sources. In part I was in an abusive marriage, but thought everything that was wrong was because I was such an effed up B. In part I'd learned some ugly depressive ways of thinking. Finally I needed meds. Whether depression is caused by problems with brain chemistry or not, I don't want to get into that debate with people, I have to have meds to function. I need meds to not be depressed. Years ago my pdoc and I tried weaning me off my meds. We did it the right way. I used a gradual step down method. One day shortly after I was off the meds I realized that I was making plans to kill myself. It scared the holy bejeebers out of me. I called my pdoc that very day, got in to see him
ASAP and got back on meds.

I don't know if I agree with the author you read saying psychic pain comes from unmet psychological needs, but I do agree that suicidal urges come from psychic pain.

[DechanDawa]

Originally Posted by lizardlady

posted by DechanDawa


I believe my suicidal wishes had several sources. In part I was in an abusive marriage, but thought everything that was wrong was because I was such an effed up B. In part I'd learned some ugly depressive ways of thinking. Finally I needed meds. Whether depression is caused by problems with brain chemistry or not, I don't want to get into that debate with people, I have to have meds to function. I need meds to not be depressed. Years ago my pdoc and I tried weaning me off my meds. We did it the right way. I used a gradual step down method. One day shortly after I was off the meds I realized that I was making plans to kill myself. It scared the holy bejeebers out of me. I called my pdoc that very day, got in to see him
ASAP and got back on meds.

I don't know if I agree with the author you read saying psychic pain comes from unmet psychological needs, but I do agree that suicidal urges come from psychic pain.

I really liked how you described your experience with meds without making it sound like it is the way. The few times I have been on SSRI's I have had really bad experiences and now I don't think I want to go that route. However, I am going to a psychiatrist to discuss the possibility of other options. What I get from you is the message, "Keep trying..." because something will work and it is worth the effort. That's an uplifting, comforting message. PS Funny you mentioned about disagreeing with that author about "thwarted psychological needs" because I had the same response! Sometimes, I think, depression and suicidality blossom in an invalidating environment, as you pointed out, and I also happen to know this territory well. So I am now working on removing myself from ALL invalidating crap (usually thrown out by malignant narcissists) even if it means going No Contact with some of my relatives, which makes me sad, but if they are going to hurt me and not help me when I am in this vulnerable place, they have to go. So yeah, I have a "psychological need" to be respected now! Thanks for your input. I have found your feedback very helpful and I hope the OP will forgive me for hijacking this thread a bit.

[DoWeHaVeApUrPoSe???]

I don't think anyone but your husband can tell you what his comment means so you need to try and get him to open up to you. Maybe he doesn't understand what it means fully himself. It all depends on what is causing these thoughts in the first place, how deep it goes and how long these thoughts have been there. If the person saying these things has thought long and hard and cannot see a life that they are happy with ever occuring then there is good reason for concern. I will say this though, personally i think suicide is only selfish depending on the circumstances. If someone is truely miserable, has been for a long time and is absolutely confident that there is no way out and things are going to remain the same or get worse then i really do understand it. Obviously it is hard on family and friends but think just how hard it is on the individual who is thinking about or commits that act. If i were you i wouldn't be telling people about this without your husbands permission and i would try to comfort him and try to get to the bottom of this, you have to be careful as sometimes suicide can be an impulsive thing and deep down that person doesn't really want it. When thats the case, i can see where you are coming from with the selfish thing. People are different sometimes you can have two individuals with the same life, one hates it and the other loves it, its hard for the lover to understand the hater because they are happy with life. Humans are complex, understanding that we are all different and content with different things could be the key to a happier future.

[elevatedsoul]

im not sure..
for me sometimes i dont want to be alive anymore, simply because i dont want to live like this anymore... i dont want to die, i just want to be happy, i want a different life without the pain and suffering... i am not suicidal and never thought about creating any type of plan... i however often think that things would be better off for everyone if i was not here anymore... including my own pain and suffering ending...
but my memory is so horrible that i dont know what is going on from a minute to minute basis atm, i end up even forgetting that i have any problems, but reminders are everywhere so im constantly reminded that im just in a dream world that is outside of reality... after some time experiencing this the distress increases... one would think its nice to forget you have problems, but when your problems are not forgotten, they are simply put in the dark and still very active... it is hell to go through continuous cycle... disconect... reconnect... where am i? jesus!! lalalala, whats going on..? omg i cant believe im still here! lalalala... omg its time to go to sleep..? i dont know whats going on

in the midst of addiction, depression will grab ahold and try to strangle the life out of you... to keep you in the chains bound to that you want to get away from desperately... that can cause these feelings...

withdrawal from substances has high chance of causing depression and anxiety...

you may have already read about it, but looking into addiction may be beneficial...
its very difficult to convince someone with addiction that they need help... and you have to do it delicately... you dont want to come off as saying "you have a problem, you need help!" in my experience this causes to just get angry and ignore and avoid and to use even more out of spite because i DONT need help and dont need anyone telling me i have a problem, kind of thing...
end up thinking that the substance is helping the bad feelings go away, when its just keeping the bad feelings around because we cant face them...
covering stuff up with falsehoods...

i cant speak for anyone else, i am not a doctor and for sure dont know what is going on inside my own mind.. but this is just my take...

i would try to articulate my words more but i really cant right now...

here just a couple articles
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alcoho...rawal_syndrome
Depression and Addiction | Dual Diagnosis

i hope the both of you can work through this together... try to be there for each other...
many hugs

[Persephone518]

Huge thanks to all who took the time to respond. I really appreciate your thoughts and willingness to share your own experiences. It makes me feel much less alone (and even somewhat hopeful ).

My husband and I have talked several times since I first posted this thread. I explained to him that I think he's not only suffering from alcohol dependence but also depression as well, and that the two are undoubtedly feeding into and perpetuating each other. At first he didn't agree with my assessment. Then last night, he admitted that he had been thinking about it and now believes I'm right.

Unfortunately he holds the stereotypical male view that depression=weakness (and that admitting to depression is an even bigger weakness). Of course I explained that this isn't the case and that admission is actually a sign of strength. He doesn't buy it. I don't know if that will change, but at least he was willing to open his mind enough to admit the possibility.

He also explained that he's been imagining what it would be like to end his life. He insisted that at no point did he ever have any actual intent to commit suicide--he was merely imagining what he would do in the hypothetical scenario. He knows we would all be devastated and assured me that he doesn't really want to die. He just thinks a lot about what it would be like to decide not to be alive any more.

It still seems like there's very little distinction. Is it normal for depressed people to fantasize, if you will, about committing suicide but not have actual suicidal wishes?

I really should be able to answer my own question. I've been there.

Possible trigger:

When my first husband died, I was so despondent with grief that I wished I were dead. I fantasized about suicide. I even researched various methods online. At my worst point, I began to consider the possibility of actually doing it--but at the same time I was torn. I was afraid of the possibility of Hell (despite being agnostic) and knew my friends would be heartbroken. Fortunately I was able to pull myself out of it. To this day, I still can't say for certain if fantasizing about the hypothetical act of killing myself meant I was truly suicidal or if it was my mind's twisted way of working through the pain.

I remember how close to the edge I got a couple times and worry if my husband having similar thought processes now means he's worse off emotionally than he claims.

Anyway. The bad news is that he's still totally resistant to the idea of treatment or medication. I believe that private one-on-one sessions with a cognitive behavioral therapist who specializes in addiction and depression (in other words, just like the one I'm seeing now) would be beneficial to him, as would a low-grade antidepressant (again, like the ones I'm on). He's glad that these things have been beneficial for me but still insists that he doesn't want to go that route. He's an adult and I can't force him. Like someone wisely said upthread, what I can do is be supportive of positive decisions and always be there for him to confide in.

The good news is that we're in the process of moving to a beautiful house in a gorgeous town close to his family. His family are all awesome people. He has a really positive relationship with them and they've been very helpful and supportive so far. His older brother is three years sober. So that means he will have an excellent support system of people he trusts and loves who understand what he's going through. Perhaps if the problems persist once we're settled in, I'll be better equipped to persuade him to try counseling.

So all in all, I'm still worried but cautiously optimistic. I think it says a lot that he was willing to confide these things to me AND that he finally admitted the possibility of depression. We'll see how things go with the move. At least it gives him plenty to focus on in the meantime.

Thanks again for your kind words and help.

[Humpty Dumpty]

Ok I'm sure you've gotten a lot of good insite so far, but here is my 2 cents.
There is a fine line between not wanting to live and wanting to kill yourself. (I know it is a line I walk). So let me put it this way....being suicidal means you want to take active measures to end your life. Not wanting to live means you are not going to take active measures to prolong your life.

Your average person will take cover when a tornado comes along. Someone who doesn't want to live any more won't bother wasting their time. After all what's the worst that could happen? I live? Often times though not wanting to live can lead to suicidal thoughts and sometimes actions as well. For me on a good day if a tornado siren goes off I ignore it. On a bad day it is taking every bit of energy I have not to take immediate action to kill myself.

Your husband sounds like he is dealing with some heavy crap right now & trying to work it out on his own the best he can. He has his reasons for not wanting to seek "professional" help. There is nothing you can do to make him get it. He has to want the help himself & sometimes it's a lot more difficult than just "wanting" help.

I know this isn't really what you wanted to hear but it is the truth & it is what you need to know. You have to make a decision at this point of if you want to stick by his side through this entire ordeal.

I wish you the best. I know it's not easy.

[Fuzzybear]

[kecanoe]

In my experience, I have been suicidal. The only thing that stopped me was my belief that my youngest daughter would not be able to handle it. That was on and off for a couple of years. Once it was so bad I hospitalized myself.
The rest of the last 9 years I have been suffering from treatment resistant depression and some other things. I do want to die. I find myself being jealous of people my age who have died. I wonder why 2 of my former co-workers died from cancer when they wanted to live and I don't. I do believe in heaven, but even if I didn't I would still welcome being told by a Dr that I had a fatal disease. But, I am not going to take action to kill myself. It's hard to explain, but I agree with your husband that they are two very different things.
If I were in your shoes, I would ask that he let you know if he moves from wanting to die to being suicidal.
Sobriety would help. I am 29 years sober thanks to what I learned in AA. Maybe your H would consider going to a few meetings? It is non-professional help by design.

[Persephone518]

Originally Posted by kecanoe

Sobriety would help. I am 29 years sober thanks to what I learned in AA. Maybe your H would consider going to a few meetings? It is non-professional help by design.

Neither of us adhere to the 12-step philosophy (although my mom was an AA devotee). I bought him the book Rational Recovery by Jack Trimpey, which he has yet to read, and even attended a few SMART Recovery meetings in hopes of getting some ideas I could pass along to him. I tried to get him to come with me but he declined. He doesn't want to share his problems with a room full of strangers, which I can understand.

I think private sessions with an addiction counselor might be more up his alley, but he's not willing to do that either at this point. He was able to sober himself up for several weeks before he fell off the wagon. He believes he'll be able to do that again when he's ready (those last three words being the operative phrase here).

We're moving in three weeks. My hope, as I've mentioned before, is that the change of locale plus the presence and support of his family will help give him a new perspective on alcohol and depression treatment.