[IA_2809]

Hi community, hope this is the right place to ask. Let me know otherwise.

I wanted to ask either specialists here or people knowledgeable on the issue about incels.

One thing that draws my attention about incels is how they claim their issues are beyond their control. For come cases this there's most likely alternatives to try, but should I assume this is always incorrect?

This leads me to extrapolate an overall question: when it's enough to consider an issue is out of control or not? Also, is there a difference in the person itself to give his/her own meaning for such a solution, or is the person assumed to have his will overruled and instructed how to proceed?

Greetings!

Interesting thread.

As background to other readers, an "Incel" is a member of an online community of self-described "involuntary Celibates". What they hold in common is a rather poor track record with women. Also in common is their sense that this has nothing to do with their own doing or actions but that women themselves are banding together to prevent them from having relationships (sexual in particular). The 'dark web' is a great place to find groups of these Incels banding together. This grouping together only adds to their ruminations and beliefs women are intentionally denying them sex. In most cases, these men appear to be socially inadequate and extremely socially inept. There are stats out their suggesting a great many men with Aspergers and Autism fall prey and get roped into this growing community (note, I am not suggesting that all socially inadequate men choose to join such extremism).

They refuse to take personal responsibility for their failures. They blame women in general; that it is a feminist cause to deny their rights to sexual relationships. They exhibit at times a great deal of anger - so much so that some have taken their anger out violently against women

Possible trigger:

(case in point the running down and killing and injuring primarily women in Toronto recently).

The OP has asked about personal responsibility of these men, specifically do they choose to act in such a way by free will or have they been instructed in how to proceed.

I believe a great many fall into the second category. They discover the community and find themselves drawn in. Perhaps originally hesitant I am sure they find themselves a haven where they are free to express their alarming sentiments.

[IA_2809]

Originally Posted by justafriend306

Interesting thread.

As background to other readers, an "Incel" is a member of an online community of self-described "involuntary Celibates". What they hold in common is a rather poor track record with women. Also in common is their sense that this has nothing to do with their own doing or actions but that women themselves are banding together to prevent them from having relationships (sexual in particular). The 'dark web' is a great place to find groups of these Incels banding together. This grouping together only adds to their ruminations and beliefs women are intentionally denying them sex. In most cases, these men appear to be socially inadequate and extremely socially inept. There are stats out their suggesting a great many men with Aspergers and Autism fall prey and get roped into this growing community (note, I am not suggesting that all socially inadequate men choose to join such extremism).

They refuse to take personal responsibility for their failures. They blame women in general; that it is a feminist cause to deny their rights to sexual relationships. They exhibit at times a great deal of anger - so much so that some have taken their anger out violently against women (case in point the running down and killing and injuring primarily women in Toronto recently).

The OP has asked about personal responsibility of these men, specifically do they choose to act in such a way by free will or have they been instructed in how to proceed.

I believe a great many fall into the second category. They discover the community and find themselves drawn in. Perhaps originally hesitant I am sure they find themselves a haven where they are free to express their alarming sentiments.

First of all, thanks for replying. Should've added a definition for "incel" indeed, which accounts to a person who intends losing his virginity and being in a relationship but without success.

In fact, that's one thing that I'm not sure they claim; women purposely conspiring against them. They claim that they do reject them out of things that are beyond control from either themselves or involved women (like physical attraction), and despite having control in others (behavior, hygiene, "social skills", the last being a term I'm no fan of given I have an affinity to understand social relationships as having a casuistic, dialectic nature too complex and hard to standardize), exercising those won't account enough for success. I can agree resulting frustrations and hostility might turn shocking for many, though (I've read some forum boards and I feel they're pretty much as aggressive as most of political boards nowadays or competitive communities without clear social disciplinary development, sadly)

My question was more addressed as to whether it's them or us who have the political authority to claim what's to be expected as personal responsibility and what's beyond control the person. In other words, what can be reasonably expected they can control about themselves and what not (this not implying they're being necessarily manipulated or instructed).

Also, whether we're entitled to morally override their autonomy of judgment for us to impose the solutions we think are correct to solve their situation, without taking in account their own experience and associated meaning. In other words, on why do we feel so certain we do know better about our suggestions to be absolutely superior and ethical just because we assume they don't actually share our concept of personal responsibility.

All of this assumed for the majority abiding to the law; in other words, excluding those who call on major crimes.

technically there are those who do abide the law so to speak but, to meet the standard definition of an incel, they in fact do not recognise responsibility for their failures with women. Many do not then accept the rules of appropriate behaviour. They believe they have been wronged so to them it is perfectly acceptable to commit wrong in return. They are generally a very very angry lot, many espousing violence and cheering on those that do commit it. Minutes after the tragedy in Toronto the web lit up with a community happily rejoicing it and encouraging further acts. The predator of the attack was hailed as a hero to the incel community at large. His name has since been kept off the radar so as to avoid him becoming a living martyr to the cause.

In the descriptions I am familiar with it is they who feel superior to us and not the other way around. This belief in superiority translates to them thinking they are above the law. When the acting out does occur, regardless of extent, they honestly feel they have had a right to behave as such. These are very very dangerous men whether or not they have physically acted out.

Sadly, even PsychCentral has not been immune.

[IA_2809]

I'll be honest in saying I spent lurking their communities for quite a while, out of my interest for not even the lack of success at sexual or romantic experiences (which I've had), but more for their unique essentialist, fatalistic views on life as well as myself feeling chronically repressed by more orthodox, positive paradigms.

It feels different to read something else other than self-oppression when you've been depressed for years and you get bored of being told what should you blame yourself for, and how and why should you rectify it.

I do not see myself as one of them and I do not condone their poor moral argumentation, their violent, misogynistic rhetoric, their overall disregard for others, yet I think it's very interesting to inquire on their views of responsibility and what one thinks others control and what they actually do.

I get resonant vibes when they feel condescended by most generic advice and platitudes, for example. I can sense many of them have actually tried things, yet they failed. And it feels really weird the automatic response is to assume they're to blame themselves for poor application instead of being actually conditioned by circumstances beyond human control.

Also, it's polemic for me to tell any other adult which responsibilities he/she should endorse and which one is he/she neglecting. It s a delicate exercise of power that has brought me humiliation (since telling what a person controls and what not is a really delicate point) I don't wish to cause upon others, to the point I'd rather ignore and move on from such a person no matter its behavior. I expect they either give meaning to their own morals (considering change often comes in forced ways that can't be attributed to people, an idea incels themselves would endorse) or get excluded from society, instead of promoting a normative moral code. I think it's really hard to trust someone who gives advice he/she's not willing to self-question but impose as an morally idoneous, normative lecture.

I've kept an skeptic stance on the stoicist nature they seem to reject as well, from my own political concerns, yet I can't accept or identify with their arbitrary, circumstantial justifications. It's a real weird feeling I've been trying to articulate in the best way in this post, yet I struggle at it. I feel anxious and uncertain standing in between two positions; one full of violence and despair (incels), and one normative, arrogant one in answer to it.

Originally Posted by IA_2809

...........My question was more addressed as to whether it's them or us who have the political authority to claim what's to be expected as personal responsibility and what's beyond control the person. In other words, what can be reasonably expected they can control about themselves and what not (this not implying they're being necessarily manipulated or instructed). .......

To claim they aren't 'responsible' for their behaviour is to claim the woman somehow is. There is no excuse for this sort of attitude. You seem to suggest that social ineptitude gives carte blanche for abhorrent behaviour. No. The difficulties these men have in cultivating sexual encounters has nothing to do with a feminist conspiracy and agenda. It is entirely owing to their behaviour and attitudes. To say they can't help themselves is to say the women they target deserve it.

[IA_2809]

Originally Posted by justafriend306

To claim they aren't 'responsible' for their behaviour is to claim the woman somehow is. There is no excuse for this sort of attitude. You seem to suggest that social ineptitude gives carte blanche for abhorrent behaviour. No. The difficulties these men have in cultivating sexual encounters has nothing to do with a feminist conspiracy and agenda. It is entirely owing to their behaviour and attitudes. To say they can't help themselves is to say the women they target deserve it.

You're unfairly overreacting to things I haven't said. This is where I question whether they really blame women or some third factor, probably of a "natural" essence that is not under human control.

I definitely agree it's unfair to blame women for things they're not responsible for, yet that doesn't mean what incels can do about themselves will account for success. To say they can't help themselves is not at all implying women are to endure the consequences but recognizing there might be a need to seek for other alternatives than keeping in denial about solutions that aren't completely working. We as a society have gone through different methods for dealing with deviant behavior (from eugenics to witchhunts), and our times of self-oppression might be as well just another stage of social control development.

My point is not to take for final any solution we might think as best to deal with any issue, no matter how personal involvements are in there.

"Alternative' solutions to their problems. What then are you suggesting? That society be responsible for ensuring every man is entitled to sex? That seems to be what you are saying. That is what incels are implying - that they are owed sexual satisfaction and that women are obligated to ensure this happens.

[Gus1234U]

thank you for your replies to this poster, Justafriend~! there are far too many examples of males requiring females to provide sexual services; prostitution is the least offensive of those, in my opinion. all of them are degrading and damaging to the females (children, even), at minimal cost to the males. this talk of 'incels' seems like another example of Darwinism, at work.

my spiritual teacher says: "the causes of suffering are: wanting what you don't have, and not wanting what you do have." i would add that blaming anything is a no-win strategy, and if one cannot change, then acceptance is the alternative.

Acceptance is not acceptable in this case. This is a hate group at its core. Their crimes are hate crimes at times horrific at times glorified by its membership. Furthermore, society - women in general - owe them nothing. Having sex is not a right. It is an earned luxury (paid for or not). The sense of entitlement has led to dangerous vicious acts.

"The term "Incel Rebellion" is sometimes used interchangeably with the term "Beta Uprising", which refers to a violent response to incels' perceived sexual deprivation."

Incels (a portmanteau of "involuntary celibates") are members of an online subculture who define themselves as unable to find a romantic or sexual partner despite desiring one, a state they describe as inceldom. Self-identified incels are mostly white, male, and heterosexual. Discussions in incel forums are often characterized by resentment, misanthropy, self-pity, self-loathing misogyny, racism, a sense of an entitlement or a right to sex, and the endorsement of violence against sexually active people. .......described the subculture as "part of the online male supremacist ecosystem", and self-described incels

Possible trigger:

have committed at least four mass murders

in North America." Wikipedia and content in rooted in multiple cited sources.

I hope this clears up any lack of knowledge or misunderstanding of who these men are.

[Onward2wards]

Incels seem to believe there is an inflexible and arbitrary social hierarchy which they simply cannot climb, due to circumstances beyond their apparent control - a form of low self-image and learned helplessness. I can understand people's frustration and despair if this is what they think based on their experiences, however I have never been able to grasp why they grow to hate the women they want to be with, or the so-called "Chads" - males who incels consider socially successful. Reaction formation of some kind?

This whole movement sounds radicalized to a very distressing degree. It's like these guys think transforming into a caricature of the ancient Spartan warrior type will somehow magically transform their lives for the better. Another thing I don't get - why have I never heard of women becoming "incels"? It seems to be a uniquely male problem.

[Gus1234U]

[Quote:] Acceptance is not acceptable in this case. [/Quote]

acceptance of one's lot in life, not acceptance of viscous behavior.

Originally Posted by Onward2wards

.....why have I never heard of women becoming "incels"? It seems to be a uniquely male problem.

The ironic thing is that it was a woman who coined the term about her own frustrations at 'involuntary celibacy'. The term took off in the internet stratosphere and she has since publicly denounced it.

[Gus1234U]

it's just that women seem to be genetically less violent than men....
i hear quite a few women complaining that they can't even get a date... but they don't threaten to go shoot up the men's gym~

too right.

[avlady]

Well, this is all new to me, ive never heard of this, have i been living under a rock? I believe these men don't see themselves as the problem and blame the women is what I am hearing here. I think they are reponsible for their actions and are just trying to blame the women. am i right? I do understand there may be some type of mental disorder here too, but even those with mental disorders have to be in check of their behaviors.

yep, pretty much sums it up

It should be noted that a major make up of this community are individuals on the Autism Spectrum disorder. No, most with Aspergers for instance don't join in but of those that are members, they tend to be described as such - specifically as men socially incapable of forming the relationships they desire. As you have pointed out, this is not the excuse as suggested it should be.