[Grey Matter]

It angers me so much, especially as a non-binary person. that gender neutral and androgynous are, ironically, masculine. But if a NB person wears a dress, their gender identity is questioned, especially by those in the trans community.

Short hair, rail thin, masculine colors, masculine clothing.... and that is gender neutral?

Don't get me wrong, I am not insulting any NB that expresses themselves this way, what I am getting at is that we, as a community, need to make sure NB and trans people who do dress in what we see as feminine, are still gender neutral. I have been in many arguments with the trans community and support groups I have been quite literally chased out of about the "legitimacy" of NB people who dress in "feminine" clothing.

Pink is gender neutral
make up is gender neutral
dresses are gender neutral
All body types are gender neutral
All haircuts are gender neutral
////everything is gender neutral if you stop putting binary genders into a name///

I feel like a lot of NB and trans people are excluded or are made to feel uncomfortable in the community because they are forced to subscribe to this one ideal of gender neutralism, and it's unfair and can be dangerous.

What do you guys think?

Well, I don't know allot about this, Grey Matter. I'm too old & isolated for it to have much meaning for me. The one thing I would offer is that, from my perspective at least, we MtF transsexual persons (which is what I'm familiar with) are not non-binary for the most part. In fact we are, in a sense, ultra binary. We are dumped onto one end of the binary at birth. And we are desperate to leap as far as possible toward the other end of the binary. As such, we need for there to be binary associations: pink & other pastel colors & floral prints= feminine, dresses= feminine, make-up= feminine. These are the mileage markers by which we judge our progress toward our goal. So, in a sense, what I understand the non-binary objective to be runs counter to the goals of most trans individuals. I've not known any MtF trans person who didn't love pink... I do!

[Grey Matter]

I don't mean for for binary transgender, no worries! I know defining ones self with their outward expression is sometimes as important as internal expression. My issue resides in ftm and mtf people sometimes underminding the expression of NB folk and the like.

I have an NB friend who is not male or female, and xyr flow between the two sometimes, but not always. When xem and myself went to a group for trans/NB people, we were yelled at because xe was wearing a dress, therefore, xyr didn't "understand" the struggles of trans people. Which isn't true, as we still face a disproportionate amount of violence, job loss, and mental illness.

My biggest bone to pick here, and not with you, but with some groups, is that NB are limited to one look. And we need to subscribe to that look to be taken seriously, or we are told we are doing it for "attention".

A big thing to remember is that gender and binary based objects (makeup, clothes, the like) can be what ever you want them to be. You can be a ftm and STILL wear dresses! And that makes it masculine! You can be mtf and hate wearing dresses but love suits! That makes it feminine! And it's wonderful!

I just get so frustrated when people correct my appearance, and I feel like I've had to be masculine my whole life to remain gender neutral... which defeats it completely and leaves me feeling like I have no choices.

Thanks for the explanation, Grey Matter! Having been deeply closeted almost my entire life, I understand very little about all of this. I only now know a little bit related to the MtF experience & even that is skewed in favor of my personal experience.

[Bill3]

In much of the country, masculine is normative, "human", while feminine is, well, feminine. Thus, often someone wearing traditionally masculine clothes and colors is taken to be simply "human", not gendered; while someone wearing feminine clothes is taken to be feminine, gendered.

This way of thinking, seemingly common in the wider world, might be infecting or overwhelming the world of which you speak.

[TheSeamster]

I hate that feminine clothes automatically label you as a feminine gender. I love my frilly skirts and brightly colored eye shadow! But I dont wear them too often because then my nonbinary identity is questioned. Especially since I'm afab.

[Grey Matter]

Originally Posted by Bill3

In much of the country, masculine is normative, "human", while feminine is, well, feminine. Thus, often someone wearing traditionally masculine clothes and colors is taken to be simply "human", not gendered; while someone wearing feminine clothes is taken to be feminine, gendered.

This way of thinking, seemingly common in the wider world, might be infecting or overwhelming the world of which you speak.

You just blew my mind wow this makes perfect sense. Masculine as "human", yup.

[Grey Matter]

Originally Posted by TheSeamster

I hate that feminine clothes automatically label you as a feminine gender. I love my frilly skirts and brightly colored eye shadow! But I dont wear them too often because then my nonbinary identity is questioned. Especially since I'm afab.

Exactly! I feel like I've missed out on being comfortable in my own skin because I am always attacked by someone for seemingly everything I do to my appearance. I recently went without a haircut for a few months, I have curly hair that likes getting big, and I wore a pink/red sweatshirt and people were just "Oh, so you're a girl now!" oh my good god. It's so infuriating.

And then you get cis people who then tell me "well, then, dress like a boy"

*head desk*

[TheSeamster]

Originally Posted by Grey Matter

Exactly! I feel like I've missed out on being comfortable in my own skin because I am always attacked by someone for seemingly everything I do to my appearance. I recently went without a haircut for a few months, I have curly hair that likes getting big, and I wore a pink/red sweatshirt and people were just "Oh, so you're a girl now!" oh my good god. It's so infuriating.

And then you get cis people who then tell me "well, then, dress like a boy"

*head desk*

Seriously?! Like, non-binary is literally being outside binary gender! Wearing feminine stuff is just part of being non-binary! It's just as gender neutral as pants and short hair!

Femininity =\= girl
Masculinity =\= boy OR neutral

Everything is neutral. Literally everything. It's your gender expression, not theirs!

I usually dress more masculine, but that's just me, my ratio of masculinity to femininity to neutral tends to be like 50:20:30.

[Grey Matter]

Exactly, thank you! If I decide to wear a pink frilly skirt, it IS non-binary clothing. If I decide to wear a suit, it IS non-binary clothing. I hate that we have to prove ourselves at every corner or we aren't taken seriously. It's a god damn shame, and to be honest, it's why I no longer feel comfortable attending trans/gender differential support groups in person anymore. The first people to jump down my throat and accuse me of being a "special snow flake" are trans men. Always. I feel bad "generalizing" but I've literally been harassed when I've attended meetings, and I live in a liberal state.

My clothes, at this point, are androgynous/masculine which upsets me as I feel so limited just to be taken seriously, in my own damn community. It's draining and frustrating.

[TheSeamster]

Originally Posted by Grey Matter

Exactly, thank you! If I decide to wear a pink frilly skirt, it IS non-binary clothing. If I decide to wear a suit, it IS non-binary clothing. I hate that we have to prove ourselves at every corner or we aren't taken seriously. It's a god damn shame, and to be honest, it's why I no longer feel comfortable attending trans/gender differential support groups in person anymore. The first people to jump down my throat and accuse me of being a "special snow flake" are trans men. Always. I feel bad "generalizing" but I've literally been harassed when I've attended meetings, and I live in a liberal state.

My clothes, at this point, are androgynous/masculine which upsets me as I feel so limited just to be taken seriously, in my own damn community. It's draining and frustrating.

It's not just frustrating, it's straight up awful. It's practically dehumanizing because they look at your clothes and decide your gender before they even know you!

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Grey Matter

I have an NB friend who is not male or female, and xyr flow between the two sometimes, but not always. When xem and myself went to a group for trans/NB people, we were yelled at because xe was wearing a dress, therefore, xyr didn't "understand" the struggles of trans people. Which isn't true, as we still face a disproportionate amount of violence, job loss, and mental illness.

Wouldnt xe have been the correct pronoun to use in all cases here? I dont see why you would use xyr or xem when in binary terms you still wouldnt have used her or him, you would have used he or she. Subjective case, objective case. Xyr didnt understand - makes no sense. Xe didnt understand - makes sense. You cant just throw words around willy-nilly and expect acceptance, i dont think. It looked like you werent taking yourself seriously, imo.

[Grey Matter]

Or I am severely dyslexic and I messed up. Which I did. And I will go fix it.

Sorry, forgot there are endless people to impress here. Thank you for also blindly judging my own self image (I do take myself seriously when discussing issues such as these), great job. Anything to add to the discussion that is relevant?

[TheSeamster]

Originally Posted by hankster

Wouldnt xe have been the correct pronoun to use in all cases here? I dont see why you would use xyr or xem when in binary terms you still wouldnt have used her or him, you would have used he or she. Subjective case, objective case. Xyr didnt understand - makes no sense. Xe didnt understand - makes sense. You cant just throw words around willy-nilly and expect acceptance, i dont think. It looked like you werent taking yourself seriously, imo.

Xe didn't understand. = she/he/they didn't understand
Thats is xyr cat. = that is his/her/their cat
Have you met xem? = have you met them/him/her?

BUT pronouns are very individual and personal and are different for everyone. It was just a typo. Even if it hadn't been a typo, you can't assume everyone's pronouns will be the same. It could have been xyr.

Some people prefer xym instead of xyr. Or there are other ones like void/bun/gem/etc. The best way to approach pronouns in general is if you don't know someone's specific gender pronouns, use something neutral like the singular "they".

Please be a bit more considerate when pointing things out, or just don't. It can be easy to hurt someone's feelings through the net since we can't see each other or use body language.

[unaluna]

Sorry. Thanks for the how-to-use key.

And you are so right about tone. I never reread my posts, cuz i never hear how bad they sound until long after. Like i thought that "imo" softened it. It did not! My older brother actually sent me to charm school when i was 12, held at a local department store. I guess he saw some blooming deficits.

I was around for the change from chairman to chairperson. I would really love to see this change happen.

[bronzeowl]

I get it. I definitely do.

I'm currently feeling ill (comes and goes these days), so can't concentrate enough to read every post. But the thread pretty much covers what's been on my mind as of late.

In the trans community, you see this... gender restriction a lot. And it's ironic, you know? You'd think all of them, of all people, would get that gender is essentially nothing more than a socially constructed idea. Something is only 'feminine' because someone defines it as such.

Normally, I identify as male. I am f2m, after all. Sometimes, though, I wear dresses. Sometimes, I wear skinny jeans and frilly shirts. Everyone around me acts as though this is some crime. As though I'm not allowed to do it. As though me doing it somehow makes me less of a trans*male than I was the day before. What? Why?

I consider myself genderless more and more these days. With little identity left, even my gender has been up to question. I have experienced judgment for my 'variety' in clothing from transwomen, transmen, genderqueer individuals, lesbians... The worst part is, we're not allowed to talk about it. It's as though we are not considered part of the 'community' at all. Feels... "lovely" when you already feel as though you lack a stable identity. When even the LGBT community seems to deny you exist.

[Grey Matter]

Ugh, it just upsets me so much. I think it really lends a hand to transmisogyny. I know most of the "leaders" in the trans world are ftm (and this isn't an attack on you bronze, you have a good head on your shoulders) which means they become this voice for everyone who is on the trans spectrum. A lot of trans man dislike what is considered 'femininity' as it "feeds the binary", which is simply ridiculous as there are ftm people who are extremely masculine.

Honestly, I think it's another way to manipulate genderqueer/NB/trans(women) people to feel even lesser and more excluded than they (we) already do. Masculine clothing/appearances are taken seriously. Any appearance that has femininity is taken as lesser, and that is what they want.

I have noticed when I am more genderfuc*ery in appearance, or more masculine, my opinion is taken more seriously. People in the trans community believe I am radical and know everything there is to know about trans issues. When I wear skinny jeans/blouses or style my hair a certain way, I am verbally mistreated by the trans community.

Most recently this weekend at a trans hang out I went to with my friend. I wore a *gasp* dress, and people rolled their eyes at me or asked me if I even knew what I was "doing".

It's disgusting.

[-jimi-]

We discussed this at uni, in terms of literature. It does indeed seem like a book with a male main character is often seen as gender neutral, and both genders might be able to identify with the MC, while if the MC is a female, everyone is pointing out it is a book about a WOMAN, while no one would refer to the male MC as a MAN. Like wow look... so cool... this MC is a MAN, MAN literature etc. The female MC is always a woman first and a human second. For the man it is the other way around. A male usually will not identify with a female MC.

The reason is of course that the man has been seen as more valuable. So the man has been made the human. While the woman is a subspecies of human.

Therefore, it is "OK" to dress like a man and cut your hair short, because then you take a step up. If you wear a skirt and makeup, you take a step down and show you are inferior. This is why this is much more sensitive and much less "gender neutral".

As long as females will be seen as non representative of the human race and worth less, gender neutral will equal male. Some people think we live in an equal society, but in reality, we do not.