What is it exactly for you to "step into someone else's shoes" For me I can define the definition but is it realistic for someone to be able to do this? Is it really that you can feel what the person feels or is it just like a definition of a thought? You can see the person hurting so you hurt too or is it defining hurt? I also mean for someone your close with as I know for myself the only thing that really ever gets to me on the outside world is only things to do with children. I guess I would like to hear from both sides (and I know I am pushing it for outside views but it is a new year). In therapy yesterday my T tried to give me an example using my sister and her screwed up marriage with about a 2-3 minute example and then she asked can you understand and I told her that the example actually aggravated me. I understand about seeing in black/white all to clear but is that really a problem? I think that society is maybe used to hearing what they want based on their own emotions. Many in return act back with the way the person showing is experiencing which is defining his or her's reflection. I am fully aware that some things I say to others is really not acceptable but in my eyes it's always what I see to be true. To many thoughts go into the process rather than the end result. At times have I purposely brought someone deeper than they already were simply because I felt the need to? Absolutely and other times the delivery was done in a different way but really is it the end result that is most important or how it's delivered? I have found that most people I have known in my life could never really "get me" and I never had a problem with that, in fact I think it was always something I really was proud of. So I act different, I can't tolerate BS and I can't act like I understand when I don't. I can't step on the other side to have compassion or act as if I care if I don't. Does this make things better or worse? I guess if we were to fit into a mold that everyone want's it would probably be pretty far off. Another thought after yesterdays session was I have never been depressed in a sense of what it is described but at the same time I can sit with zero thoughts in my mind. A big nothing going on up there. Maybe that is my depression, to close everything including thoughts out. This whole psychological thing is really nuts isn't it? Insight would be appreciated!!!!

[here today]

I don't think the whole psychological thing is nuts but my experience is that the "science" part is still being developed.

With my PD, it could either be all-about-you or all-about-me. I had an intellectual understanding of that which didn't help a lot. I worked like heck (with my therapist) get to an understanding of a separate self (me) and separate other, which are separate but both OK. Would you like me to write some more about that?

I was hoping Thorn Bird might be around to offer her insight, since you have been helpful to her, but she seems to have flown the coop, after banging on the door, screaming and trying to break in a window to get what she wanted! But maybe she'll come back, we'll see.

[Thorn Bird]

Originally Posted by here today

I don't think the whole psychological thing is nuts but my experience is that the "science" part is still being developed.

With my PD, it could either be all-about-you or all-about-me. I had an intellectual understanding of that which didn't help a lot. I worked like heck (with my therapist) get to an understanding of a separate self (me) and separate other, which are separate but both OK. Would you like me to write some more about that?

I was hoping Thorn Bird might be around to offer her insight, since you have been helpful to her, but she seems to have flown the coop, after banging on the door, screaming and trying to break in a window to get what she wanted! But maybe she'll come back, we'll see.

No I'm still hear I have asked questions but as you all conceive this to be banging on doors and breaking windows I have been somewhat content with the answers I got from underground - all I am trying to do is understand - I am not the enemy! Your talking of empathy understanding how someone feels when they are hurt or sad - think how you feel when you feel things and then metaphorically speaking put those feelings into the other person they feel the same things as you do - may be I am presuming you feel those things?

Originally Posted by here today

I don't think the whole psychological thing is nuts but my experience is that the "science" part is still being developed.

With my PD, it could either be all-about-you or all-about-me. I had an intellectual understanding of that which didn't help a lot. I worked like heck (with my therapist) get to an understanding of a separate self (me) and separate other, which are separate but both OK. Would you like me to write some more about that?

I was hoping Thorn Bird might be around to offer her insight, since you have been helpful to her, but she seems to have flown the coop, after banging on the door, screaming and trying to break in a window to get what she wanted! But maybe she'll come back, we'll see.

Please do as I do appreciate more perspective.

[here today]

Like I said, I can be “all about me” sometimes and also codependently all about another person. When I’m codependently all about the other person, then if something hurts them, it hurts me. If they need a ride to get some medicine at the pharmacy, I feel the urgency for the medicine to be gotten as if it were me. But of course it’s not me, so that wasn’t very realistic.

I tried to fit into what other people wanted or else I was adamantly independent. What’s finally happened for me is like I can how hold both people’s needs in mind at the same time. It’s not either/or. And there are two friendships that I recently lost because I could not drop everything any more for the other person, and I couldn’t pretend to agree about some things when I didn’t, or listen to the other person complain, complain, complain. But I don’t yet have the social skill to talk to my friends about how I have changed. Realistically, though, they maybe aren’t in a place to understand or want any changes in the relationship.

It’s like I finally got a “boundary” or membrane around me, and my needs are different from what my friend’s needs are but I can still understand where my friend is coming from. I respect that is where she is coming from. I just don’t have to accommodate to what my friend wants any more.

Another example: My adult daughter is currently not speaking to me. I got very angry with her 3 years ago because I felt that she was being judgmental and contemptuous of me. I had no “membrane” then, just an on/off switch. I could continue to keep quiet and get squashed down more and more and more to a point that it was becoming intolerable and I couldn’t function well, was constantly anxious around her, etc. Or I could speak up. It’s just that when I spoke up all I had to talk about what how angry I was. My daughter, as a person, disappeared from my consciousness. She was physically there with me, I wasn’t confused about the physical reality of that. It’s just that if I was going to speak about my anger, then that was the only thing or feeling mattered. All about me. I was the only “person” there. I know that may sound confusing. But IMHO that’s a hallmark of PD’s. We aren’t confused about physical reality like people with psychosis. But we are confused about social reality.

My daughter and I had some email discussions about the incident. She wrote that she understood that I had had a hard time and experienced a lot of pain but that she hoped that I understood that my emotional outbursts caused pain as well. Unfortunately, I did NOT understand that at that time. I knew that getting mad was considered “bad” in some circles, but therapists had encouraged me to express my feelings. I knew that she didn’t like me getting mad at her but I didn’t understand that it caused pain. I had dissociated (disconnected or numbed out) from the pain my mother’s rages and abandonment had caused in me. So I could not really “put myself” in my daughter’s shoes. If/when people are disconnected from their own emotions then how can we have empathy for the same emotion in other people? Our “resonance circuit” is turned off, so to speak.

Did this help any?

[Thorn Bird]

Originally Posted by here today

Like I said, I can be “all about me” sometimes and also codependently all about another person. When I’m codependently all about the other person, then if something hurts them, it hurts me. If they need a ride to get some medicine at the pharmacy, I feel the urgency for the medicine to be gotten as if it were me. But of course it’s not me, so that wasn’t very realistic.

I tried to fit into what other people wanted or else I was adamantly independent. What’s finally happened for me is like I can how hold both people’s needs in mind at the same time. It’s not either/or. And there are two friendships that I recently lost because I could not drop everything any more for the other person, and I couldn’t pretend to agree about some things when I didn’t, or listen to the other person complain, complain, complain. But I don’t yet have the social skill to talk to my friends about how I have changed. Realistically, though, they maybe aren’t in a place to understand or want any changes in the relationship. I think what you sy

It’s like I finally got a “boundary” or membrane around me, and my needs are different from what my friend’s needs are but I can still understand where my friend is coming from. I respect that is where she is coming from. I just don’t have to accommodate to what my friend wants any more.

Another example: My adult daughter is currently not speaking to me. I got very angry with her 3 years ago because I felt that she was being judgmental and contemptuous of me. I had no “membrane” then, just an on/off switch. I could continue to keep quiet and get squashed down more and more and more to a point that it was becoming intolerable and I couldn’t function well, was constantly anxious around her, etc. Or I could speak up. It’s just that when I spoke up all I had to talk about what how angry I was. My daughter, as a person, disappeared from my consciousness. She was physically there with me, I wasn’t confused about the physical reality of that. It’s just that if I was going to speak about my anger, then that was the only thing or feeling mattered. All about me. I was the only “person” there. I know that may sound confusing. But IMHO that’s a hallmark of PD’s. We aren’t confused about physical reality like people with psychosis. But we are confused about social reality.

My daughter and I had some email discussions about the incident. She wrote that she understood that I had had a hard time and experienced a lot of pain but that she hoped that I understood that my emotional outbursts caused pain as well. Unfortunately, I did NOT understand that at that time. I knew that getting mad was considered “bad” in some circles, but therapists had encouraged me to express my feelings. I knew that she didn’t like me getting mad at her but I didn’t understand that it caused pain. I had dissociated (disconnected or numbed out) from the pain my mother’s rages and abandonment had caused in me. So I could not really “put myself” in my daughter’s shoes. If/when people are disconnected from their own emotions then how can we have empathy for the same emotion in other people? Our “resonance circuit” is turned off, so to speak.

Did this help any?

I think what you say is totally understandable and not as exclusive to NPD as you think. We live in a world where everyone thinks and takes care of themselves there are actually few who can really put themselves in someone else's shoes some people find it easier than others. I also think regarding getting mad and not understanding it causes pain is again normal - obviously rages and abuse are another thing But if on reflection you can see you have hurt someone and are really sorry then that is ok too!

[here today]

Originally Posted by Thorn Bird

I think what you say is totally understandable and not as exclusive to NPD as you think. We live in a world where everyone thinks and takes care of themselves there are actually few who can really put themselves in someone else's shoes some people find it easier than others. I also think regarding getting mad and not understanding it causes pain is again normal - obviously rages and abuse are another thing But if on reflection you can see you have hurt someone and are really sorry then that is ok too!

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

Did you read the OP by underground? Do you have any insight to offer him? That's what this thread is supposed to be about.

[Thorn Bird]

Originally Posted by here today

I don't think you understood what I wrote.

Did you read the OP by underground? Do you have any insight to offer him? That's what this thread is supposed to be about.

I gave some insight into an earlier posting - I was trying to describe metaphorically how to transfer your own feelings into someone else for example if you had suffered a loss you know how devastating that is and therefore it is easier for you to relate to someone else in the same position - and all I was saying was that few people are totally empathetic - especially in the society in which we live - it cost so much to be a full human being and to reach out and feel others sorrows and hurts and to embrace the world in all it's entirety so small steps go along way the loving smile, the tender touch etc.

Originally Posted by here today

My daughter, as a person, disappeared from my consciousness. She was physically there with me, I wasn’t confused about the physical reality of that. It’s just that if I was going to speak about my anger, then that was the only thing or feeling mattered. All about me. I was the only “person” there. I know that may sound confusing. But IMHO that’s a hallmark of PD’s. We aren’t confused about physical reality like people with psychosis. But we are confused about social reality.[/FONT]

Understand completely. I appreciate your insight and also congrats on the "membrane" thing. I have the same ways except I look and see that many people I became friendly with for reasons that benefit me. Not all I must say some I actually considered real friends other than just means. Crazy thing is that two of my closest friends both are no longer alive.
I actually had a moment yesterday with my mother. She was mad at my wife and I for not having my fathers family at our house (given 2 days notice) and my little guy who gets croup real bad actually last time put him in the hospital, was sick this weekend with a throat infection (trigger for croup). We had to cancel but without ever obligating although she believes we did as she didn't hear from us. She sent me a text that day saying it was cancelled then to find they went out to a restaurant with his family and my brother and sister. Now I don't really care about seeing anyone but the fact is that this is one of her manipulating ways to get to me. I called her the next day to discuss this with her as this is the second time of the same exact thing happening. All excuses and no accountability, I have been the one who is expected to get crazy, be blamed and so on for my entire life with them. She said something to me that made me completely loose it. I said your angry? Im the one sitting on the couch each week for 45 minutes discussing my issues caused by them. How I have to put medicine into my system to try and help with my mind and emotions. I further explained in a loud tone with many four letter words that besides money you have done nothing for me and she said I have emotionally backed you always. Ha Ha Ha so I asked how??? Reply was I watch your kids and I said WTF how is that emotionally backed?? Please tell me one emotional moment you have ever been there for me and nothing. Thats when the BS tears came and I said let me guess you have to go now and that was it. With all this it put me into the crazed mind state, I flipped out on somebody while driving home and told him to pullover but wouldn't(which I am thankful he did not now). I couldn't even think straight and fell asleep at around 5-5:30am this morning. My mind went numb, I have so much anger built up but as my wife pointed out this is exactly what my mother feeds on. To continue to bring me down and then think because she will lend me money or pick my kids up that all is good. The same person who will happen to mention that something is wrong at their house or with the car to get me to take care of it yet my brother and sister never. I am beginning to understand more and more that most people whether blood or not are full of sh£@!!! I am 37 and yet I still get crazy when it comes to things like this. I have opened up to them more than I have in my entire life and yet they use that against me and keep the never ending race going. I cannot stand what this does to me when I loose my mind during these type of events. My rebound to feeling normal take days now where in the past it took minutes. I become drained of everything during these times.
Sorry about the rant but thanks again for what you wrote as it makes perfect sense, just had to share this with some that I know here fully understand. I also apologize as I know lately I write straight from my head (Tornado) and probably left out many things that would of tied this story together better. It just works for me like this.

[here today]

No problem (for me) about the rant. Seems like PC is a good place to let the tornado out straight from your head. If/when it gets less intense and you feel more like connecting some with people and not just being heard, then you can write another way if you feel like it. In the meantime, we don’t have to “listen”, that is read, if we don’t want to.

So sorry about your mom. The dynamics there – yeah, I understand from my own family of origin and may (probably) have been like that myself, despite therapy, despite my best efforts. The dynamics are full of c….p definitely. Maybe your mom’s OK sometimes? But. . . how to relate to her without the risk of. . ??? Don’t know what to call it exactly.

Do you talk with your T about this at all? Seems to me like it’s probably pretty important due to what people have found out lately about “attachment”, etc.

[DangG]

nice post heretoday.

but isnt codependency a defensive mechanism that we use in order to not hurt people and thus make bad situations for ourselves?

sorry to hear about that mess underground, i have to say this is so much true:
I am beginning to understand more and more that most people whether blood or not are full of sh£@!!!

[ihatedepechemode]

Originally Posted by Underground

Understand completely. I appreciate your insight and also congrats on the "membrane" thing. I have the same ways except I look and see that many people I became friendly with for reasons that benefit me. Not all I must say some I actually considered real friends other than just means. Crazy thing is that two of my closest friends both are no longer alive.
I actually had a moment yesterday with my mother. She was mad at my wife and I for not having my fathers family at our house (given 2 days notice) and my little guy who gets croup real bad actually last time put him in the hospital, was sick this weekend with a throat infection (trigger for croup). We had to cancel but without ever obligating although she believes we did as she didn't hear from us. She sent me a text that day saying it was cancelled then to find they went out to a restaurant with his family and my brother and sister. Now I don't really care about seeing anyone but the fact is that this is one of her manipulating ways to get to me. I called her the next day to discuss this with her as this is the second time of the same exact thing happening. All excuses and no accountability, I have been the one who is expected to get crazy, be blamed and so on for my entire life with them. She said something to me that made me completely loose it. I said your angry? Im the one sitting on the couch each week for 45 minutes discussing my issues caused by them. How I have to put medicine into my system to try and help with my mind and emotions. I further explained in a loud tone with many four letter words that besides money you have done nothing for me and she said I have emotionally backed you always. Ha Ha Ha so I asked how??? Reply was I watch your kids and I said WTF how is that emotionally backed?? Please tell me one emotional moment you have ever been there for me and nothing. Thats when the BS tears came and I said let me guess you have to go now and that was it. With all this it put me into the crazed mind state, I flipped out on somebody while driving home and told him to pullover but wouldn't(which I am thankful he did not now). I couldn't even think straight and fell asleep at around 5-5:30am this morning. My mind went numb, I have so much anger built up but as my wife pointed out this is exactly what my mother feeds on. To continue to bring me down and then think because she will lend me money or pick my kids up that all is good. The same person who will happen to mention that something is wrong at their house or with the car to get me to take care of it yet my brother and sister never. I am beginning to understand more and more that most people whether blood or not are full of sh£@!!! I am 37 and yet I still get crazy when it comes to things like this. I have opened up to them more than I have in my entire life and yet they use that against me and keep the never ending race going. I cannot stand what this does to me when I loose my mind during these type of events. My rebound to feeling normal take days now where in the past it took minutes. I become drained of everything during these times.
Sorry about the rant but thanks again for what you wrote as it makes perfect sense, just had to share this with some that I know here fully understand. I also apologize as I know lately I write straight from my head (Tornado) and probably left out many things that would of tied this story together better. It just works for me like this.

I have learned that parents won't change. I had a similiar fight with my mom. It just brought out more hurt. She chose not to be a mother. She chose not to understand.

[jeppys]

I have lots of scattered thoughts on this so this should be fun. I am self diagnosed npd (yeah yeah I know)and am currently suffering from ongoing psychosis. my whole psychosis has had a theme of "listening". I am constantly being told to listen to others and to myself. it is amazing the things I have seen when I do "listen"....which can mean pay attention, quiet upstairs, feel my own emotions and let them direct me instead of the intellect getting in the way. when I heard others mention if you know how you felt when your loved ones died then you can empathize (quasi or otherwise) with someone your talking to who has went through the same thing. problem is, it's never the same and it never can be......which means, your not listening to them but you have inserted yourself (mirror) into them. the goal is for you to put the "self" on a shelf while you listen to someone express themselves and their feelings. not to feel what they feel. love is listening in this respect. if you only listen to yourself you will only ever love yourself.......and I'm talking about the narcissus way, where he withers away staring at a reflection of his own beautiful self. how does he know he's beautiful? he listens to himself. he listens to nothing else and even the beautiful echo who pined for him couldn't be heard. we will never find love and beauty in anything but ourselves if everyone becomes a reflection of self.