[pachyderm]

I confess I don't feel I have much insight into why some people abuse and others do not, even when they may have been abused themselves. In my case I had one parent who seemed to like us children, though he left when I was eight. His influence may have been enough to make the difference between me becoming abusive and not. Then too, children are all different from the beginning, and will react differently to similar stresses. I know my brothers reacted differently than I did, and I was the only one to develop a diagnosed mental illness. I think small beginnings can grow to large differences in outcomes. But this is not very specific as to what really makes the difference.

[little*rhino]

pach... getting a dx officially makes you what is called "the identified patient" to the family. Just because no one else has a dx they have shared doesn't mean they don't have it. It's like my hearing... i'm so sick of doctors that i have refused to go see the audiologist, i don't want to get another dx... but it doesn't mean there isn't anything wrong with my ears, ya know?

families do weird things when there is an identified patient member... it's an actual documented dynamic.. check into it. Other members take comfort in the fact that "they are ok"... it's just the other person is nuts. It's not true, but it is a real dynamic.

people are so individual... abused people are more likely to committ acts of abuse, but it isn't a given at all. There are far more abused persons out there than abusers. So many factors come into play, everything from the physical and psych dynamics of an individual incident of abuse, to larger community and family dynamics. SO many factors... no two paths are the same.

if you were able to develop a real solid answer i think the world would be desperate to hear it... it would shed a lot of information on how to solve it.

some of us become self abusers, some of us become abusers of others, but the most of us become self-depreciating, deflated and struggling... what makes each of do one vs the other is just a mystery i think

idk... i know i could have easily learned to respond to others with violence, but instead i can't even kill bugs

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I confess I don't feel I have much insight into why some people abuse and others do not, even when they may have been abused themselves. In my case I had one parent who seemed to like us children, though he left when I was eight. His influence may have been enough to make the difference between me becoming abusive and not. Then too, children are all different from the beginning, and will react differently to similar stresses. I know my brothers reacted differently than I did, and I was the only one to develop a diagnosed mental illness. I think small beginnings can grow to large differences in outcomes. But this is not very specific as to what really makes the difference.

pachyderm----I think it's all in the dynamics of the family. I know I have two older brothers who abused me as a child, also, my father...later on, a therapist---on and on it went.

I knew how it felt to be helpless; I was taught Helplessness before memory. So I went on with my life-of course, I married an abusive man--it was all I knew.

I think I wanted them to love me; but they were incapable of that feeling--too self-absorbed--sociopaths.
It has taken my whole life to come to this realization: There are those who prey,
and those who are preyed upon.

So, now, I just steer clear of the preyers; I know who they are, I have a history of
knowing who they are.

I don't know what causes it either..............................theo

[purple_fins]

I've wondered this so much myself.

I can't help but think it has something to do with empathy, at least part of it.... putting oneself in the other's place. If you can do that-- then I imagine the act of abusing someone else could be less of an option(as you realize how it might feel to be them)..... maybe?.....

fins

[Shangrala]

I feel it's the dynamics and how it effects us as the individuals that we are.

I come from a huge family, (10 kids). Although we are old...er now, my siblings still to this day title me as the black sheep of the bunch...fine with me. That's their issue, not mine.

Thing is, today, all 10 of us need therapy...no lie, but not one of them is willing to consider the thought, let alone obtain it. Their loss. They can struggle through the rest of theirs however they want to, but they are in no position to cast judgement upon another, which is about the only thing my siblings have in common.

My parents were not physically abusive, but certainly were not aware of how their tactics and strategy of raising us effected us individually.
What worked for one of us, certainly didn't for another, yet they were too busy attending to the "whole" that they were unable to focus on the individual.

Each one of us have our own disorder resulting from the same upbringing. It's how it effected us individually.
Example:

*A brother who suffers from "ImGod Syndrome" and manages to make the rest of us feel insignificant.
*A brother who is a womanizer and believes women are less of a person than men are.
*A brother who is suffering from severe anger issues and violent behavior.
*A brother who suffers from gambling and drug addiction, is a pathological liar.
*A brother who is in prison for the rest of his life for the abduction and disorderly sexual conduct of a minor, (and who has also sexually abused me as a child).
*I suffer from depression, fear of failure and the need to fix people to the point that I deny my own needs.
*A brother who has a fixation on his sister and cannot manage a real relationship.
*A sister who is so severely depressed that she's given up on life.
*A sister who is so obnoxiously obsessive that visiting her at her home is too uncomfortable.
*A brother who is emotionally removed entirely from the entire whole, including his own family.

Ironic how I'm the one they see as the black sheep, yet the only one of us who has taken the step of acknowledging, obtaining help and seeking recovery.
I think maybe it's a matter of wanting to break the cycle and obtaining the understanding of how to do it?

Shangrala

[Perna]

I think a lot has to do with definitions, personal perceptions, expectations, and personal education/training. I like the idiot quote :-) "Defeat isn't bitter if you don't swallow it."

How one perceives one's self makes a difference; I noted that a lot of people in a post decided not to have children for fear they would abuse them. I don't know which kind of abuse that was; I doubt that people didn't have children for fear they'd SA children, the type of abuse the original poster was hinting at. I, in minor part, was afraid to have children because I might physically and emotionally abuse them. When I was younger, I did not have enough faith in my ability to control myself when frustrated or, imagine that I could become a less easily frustrated person.

I still have to work on not being controlling (and potentially emotionally abusive) to my grand children and it's my belief that there are few, if any, people who grow up and, someone else looking at their lives/memories/stories would agree with them if they felt they had not been abused. I think one fools one's self it they believe they have been abused but are free from being abusive themselves. Most of the perception is in the eye of the one abused so. . .

[purple_fins]

and I also think it can depend on ones knowledge too....

like if a boy is beaten by his father and then sees that it did get him to quit eating dirt or quit climbing on the counter.... then he might "learn" and hold this as knowledge that that is how you get good results from bad behavior-- you do what you thought worked.
..... a way to stop such behavior would be to learn the bad effects of such discipline and learn better alternatives. --- Knowledge--

"I did then what I knew how to do. Now I know better, I do better"
Maya Angelou

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

I confess I don't feel I have much insight into why some people abuse and others do not, even when they may have been abused themselves.

I agree with LittleRhino, who said we are all individuals and no two paths are the same. It isn't a given at all that we would all react the same.

There is no law of nature that says all people who were abused will be abusers themselves.

My T and I have spoken several times about why some people who were abused grow up to be abusers and some people don't. He said that as a defense mechanism, some children, while being abused (e.g. physically abused), will identify with the abuser. To protect themselves. They internalize this and when they are adults, the cycle continues. Other children don't identify with the abuser, but use other protective mechanisms. When they grow up, they are not abusers. Others fall somewhere in between.

In my family, one sister vowed never to have children. I don't know if she was worried about re-enacting abuse. I always thought it was because she had a rough time growing up, with our parents, and didn't want to go through that again, even if she would have the parent role. I reacted differently. I so wanted to have children and give them the happy childhood I never had. I wanted to have kids and be to them like I wished my parents had been to me. (I tried hard but was not completely successful in giving them the perfect childhood--ha!--partly because my kids are individuals and do not need or want exactly what would have been ideal for me.) Yet another sister had children, and she is very emotionally abusive to them. Yuck.

My Dad was a violent alcoholic who abused many in the family. I thought he had killed my Mom more than once.

I said I would never drink, but I did. Fortunately, I could not drink because of a medication I was taking. I knew I had a problem with alcohol. I was saved by the medication and never started again.

For many years, I was fighting. My mouth got me in a lot of trouble. I realized I was doing what my Dad had done. After a while I got tired of always having to look around buildings to see if someone was waiting to ambush me and stopped.

At some point, I read depression had a genetic basis. I determined never to have children. Since I hardly ever got along with anyone, the chances of me getting a date, let alone getting married, were slim and none. Perhaps my decision to not have children was simply an after the fact rationalization. After all, one therapist did mention I was a social retard.

In the end, I made the choices. More than one therapist told me I made a lot of bad ones. Eventually, I made some better ones. Over fifty years later, I still at times relive my childhood. Despite my childhood, however, I am responsible for who I am.

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by sunrise

...some children, while being abused (e.g. physically abused), will identify with the abuser. To protect themselves. They internalize this and when they are adults, the cycle continues.

Yes. But I wonder why some identify and others do not. I suspect the differences start out being very small, and grow if nothing intervenes to head the situation into territory with more insight.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by pachyderm

Yes. But I wonder why some identify and others do not. I suspect the differences start out being very small, and grow if nothing intervenes to head the situation into territory with more insight.

I think we all have different ways of protecting ourselves, and that can play a role too. For example, some people tend to dissociate a lot, and this may be a tendency that begins young. Dissociating in response to abuse is very common. So maybe one child dissociates when abused and doesn't even remember a lot of what happened, and another child identified with the abuser. Probably other strategies too. I don't think the child who dissociates instead of identifying with the abuser necessarily has more insight but is just instinctively doing what works for her/him. I expect that the answer to why some identify and some don't is not just one answer, but very individual to the child and the situation.

Have not read all the thread as its too long and too early for me.....

I think they are just selfish people, if they had been abused in any way shape or form, or not abused at all ! Its a selfish choice, they could choose not to do it and work hard within themselves or they can act it out.

So in my head its selfish people.

Yes even SA is a selfish abuse as they again have the choice to act on their illness or get help.

[Perna]

I think some of it is the old, "I'm okay, you're okay" versus "I'm not okay, you're not okay." If we learn we're not okay, then anything "like" us as children; wanting/needing attention; thinking family members and classmates who tease us about being crybabies, stupid, lazy, liars, etc. are correct; when we grow up, it doesn't miraculously go away. If we feel bad for wanting attention, our own children wanting attention are going to be criticized. If we were called slow, stupid, lazy, etc., then any behavior like our own that we see in our children is probably going to be labeled the same way.

My stepmother and one brother were extremely sarcastic in a hurtful fashion and I use to be able to make you die laughing, literally; a sharp wit and sarcasm together can be deadly. She who lives by the sword, dies by the sword :-) It's taken me a zillion years of therapy to begin learning to think before I respond; that's why I prefer online to in-person; I can "correct" and think better about what I have to say and, when the stars are aligned right, be pleasantly tactful

[pachyderm]

Originally Posted by Perna

It's taken me a zillion years of therapy to begin learning to think before I respond; that's why I prefer online to in-person; I can "correct" and think better about what I have to say and, when the stars are aligned right, be pleasantly tactful

Heck, I still say things on Psych Central that I wish I had not said -- and they only give you a limited time to correct what you say.