Youth Gulags back in the "mainstream"?

Youth Gulags back in the "mainstream"?

This could correctly go in PTSD, Survivors of Abuse, Alcohol and Substance Abuse, Pychology, as well as other forums some of which we don't have on this site so I've posted it in general.

With ABC's broadcast of "Brat Camp" the delusional and harmful cultish youth gulags seem to be getting approval by the media. This ******** has got to stop; those kids needed competent help not torture, brainmushing, and regimentation. The whole boot camp concept has been discredited and doesn't work at best while sometimes killing people.
They meanwhile pass on the authoritarian "behavior modification" crappy ideas that coerce obedience without thought setting their victims up to be further victimized until they can become the abusers. ABC should be censured for trying to profit from this spectacle. That one show will no doubt result in more deaths and abuse by such misguided groups and the parents and friends they con.

http://www.youthrights.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4038
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-gulags.html
http://isaccorp.org/watchlist.html
http://isaccorp.org/watchlist.html
http://isaccorp.org/index.html

~Down

Hi down,

You wisely point up some very opposing world views.

I'm glad that I share yours.

Good thoughts, M

I read this all laat night. It's unbelievable. What we w0n't do in the name love, Itmakes me ill.

my oldest daughter went to a camp in Colorado, when she was 16. her natural dad had rejected her and her self-esteem took a tremendous blow. she was there one month. she had a three day period where she was alone, in the Grand Canyon. it changed her life. she still talks of being appreciative of having that opportunity. the letters and poetry that she wrote, while being alone, reflected how much she was changing.

i don't think it is a good idea for ABC to televise the camp experience. but, if you've ever worked with teens, as i have, you'd understand that it can be a life-saving event for some. some parents are so toxic, that a child needs someone to provide structure, love and discipline, in a foreign environment. pat

I have seen the positive results of one of these so called boot Camps. A young lady who was on the brink of self destruction was sent to a camp 6 months in the wilderness and 6 months in a School setting. This young lady is now in College. She is bright charming and a beautiful young woman. I know that some camps can be bad and yes, some of these kids might get injured or die. On the other hand how many of these lost kids take their own lives/ how many over dose on drugs? how many drink and drive kill others and them selves? Maybe kids at Columbine high School would be alive today if the Two guys who did the shooting were seen for the troubled kids they were and sent them to a program or a camp.
This is just my opinion. I do think we emphazise to much freedom and our rights . we need some balance freedom with out responsibility is not Freedom. it is anarchy. Our youth are given more then anyone else on this planet, yet they are more unhappy then ever.

I think trying to get these kids straightened out is great! I worked in a male prison for years, and in the late 70's-early '80's, our prison helpd a "Scared Straight" program ( based on the one done at a major prison and on TV). Kids who Judges had seen too many times from a 9 county area were sent to us for a day. I helped with the program each day , and wow .....what a difference a day can make ! Big mean nasty mouth bullies ended up balling their eyes out when they found out what the big mean nasty inmates had in store for them SHOULD they end up in prison. (We DID have guidelines, and only certain trustee's could participate). At the same time I was involved with this, I had a 14 yr old cousin go to prison as an adult for murder. The horrendous things that happened to him while he was incarcerated made me so sick ! I actually watch Brat Camp, and I think it is a great way to help kids "find" themselves, and turn their lives around before they end up either in prison or dead. It would be my hope that by it being shown on TV, parents who are having trouble with their kids, know there is a place they can send them, teach them some skills as parents (where the kids on the program let it be known what they are not getting at home), and that good things will come out of this show being on TV. Of course, just MHO.

I have to say I have been watching the Brat Camp series since the day it aired! I think their program for troubled kids is amazing. Yes I do agree the boot camp types may not be all they are cracked up to be. I know kids that have been to those in my area and are no better off. That is torture. I think the Sage Walk group really gets these kids to thinking about why they are there. I applaud them. Boot camps? no way. Sage Walk is a totally different kind of camp. To have watched this show from the beginning I have to say some of the kids are making really good progress. Just my 2cents worth.

Sorry, I totally disagree with the whole concept of youth 'boot camp'. Instead of parents taking responsibility for their children's actions by use of appropiate discipline, they instead ship them off to what is basically a prison where the children are degraded, threatened, screamed at, and physically punished for deviant behaviour. Those who operate in a civilized society should be able to control their children without the use of violence and intimidation. You know, it's not as though these children were born this way. Their attitudes are the result of poor parenting over several years. These parents need to reevaluate their child-rearing skills and perhaps enroll the whole family in therapy. There is a reason these young adults are acting out, issues that are not being addressed by their families or peers. Therefore, I would encourage parents who are thinking about sending their child to boot camp to make sure that they have exausted absolutely every other venue first.

Just my $0.02

Alexiel

like I said this Sage Walk program is totally different. They do not yell and scream and degrate the kids. yes there are programs that do that and I think it is appauling. I agree that kids today are not taught respect. It was taken out of the schools a long time ago and parents need to be more strict but not all of this happening today should be blamed on just the parents. We do our best with our kids but when they start school and start choosing their own friends they end up with the wrong kind of friends. Parents have no control over what happens at school.

True, very true. So often adults neglect to teach children to respect--not only their elders but themselves too. Schools don't do enough to keep kids out of trouble while their enrolled--part of it is lack of funding, but also some of it is just plain apathy. Sometimes, it's just so sad.

~A

'Brat Camp' seems like a new take on the indigenous people's 'vision quest' or 'dream walk' - send a child on the verge of adulthood into the wilderness for 3 days, armed only with a knife, to sweat & pray for a vision. Only these kids are carrying far more supplies.

I've watched it from the beginning and I enjoy the show. Yes, parents should be handling the problems, but as we've seen these parents can't/won't/don't know how. I truly believe this is a last resort for these kids.

Not only will this program hopefully help the kids, some of the "therapy" techniques they are showing might help another parent at the end of their rope. I think it's a good thing. JMHO, of course.

People who have subjected their kids to these tortore camp very mush want them to work, maybe even need them to work to the point of deluding themselves that they have to justify the trauma imposed upon those without a real vote on the matter. The trouble is they don't and are often gross violations of human rights, in the name of imposing control. http://users.resist.ca/~kirstena/pagebratcamp.html
http://isaccorp.org/documents/nih.10.17.04.html
http://outside.away.com/outside/maga.../10f_deth.html
http://isaccorp.org/documents/unconvention.pdf

Those off you who contineces such things should be ashamed.
Those that commit such crimes should go to jail, as should those politicians who take the bribes paid by these control freak cults. If you want to continue to increase such fascist tactics in society be ignorant and complacent complacent or continue to rationalize that sort of thing.



~Down

I can't begin to form opinions on these camps because I don't know about them. However just like every other form of therapy, there are many different levels, as I'm sure there are in this case as well. Yes, I have heard of kids dying at these camps. I haven't watched this show. I agree that parenting should come first, but there are instances where the children are simply out of control, even coming from so-called "perfect" families. I think only the parents of these sort of children can possibly have a real opinion of parenting issues, and parents in general. Since I am not a parent, how can I know what the children need? Before we judge parents, we need to try to be parents. I try not to judge parents based on my childhood, because every child is different and needs different sorts of help, and not every parent is the same. I think the judging needs to be left to the professionals.

~Rayna

I want a more outraged icon for the title.

I've just fully read Kirsten's artical and tend to see reason from a kids point of veiw haveing been trapped in a no win situation in my early and unfortunatlely later life as well(for political and the resultant economic fallout reasons as well as the problems that such a start as I had cause).

I trust she won't mind my quoting her here as follows:

I think every f*cking parent who sent those kids to "Brat Camp" should be sent to jail for severe child abuse, kidnapping, and exploitation of children for profit. I think we should tell their parents they are just going to a luxury spa in the woods for a couple days. But then, just like they did to their kids, the minute they land, they find out they are not touching any of their belongings, they will be treated like prisoners, they will be blindfolded and driven 60 miles from civilization to camp for months, and they have to ask to pee or *****, and they will be timed getting out of bed every morning. And they will not be leaving for a minimum of 40 days, maybe staying as long as 3 months. And no low talking among the adults, now. That is not allowed. And anything those adults write down in a diary during this time will be read by guards.

~Down

PS~ argh, I thought all hippies were the good guys but after reading this, I guess there a hippies and there are hippies, count me an non-repentant but a little young to have been a yippi.

Hi folks,

I think that there may be a confusion in what we have been talking about.

There is something in the idea of getting kids away from toxic parents and toxic environments, and the 'brat camps' do that.

However, I am not sure that the hard discipline is the key to bringing the kids back onside. I think that authentic/bonding relationships with adults is the key.

Steiner schools are the antithesis of 'brat camps' and yet they do just the same thing, they bring disturbed kids back onside. The Steiner teachers were magic with the kids, and some even keep in touch throughout their adult lives.

I have worked (in teaching) with disturbed kids myself, some very disturbed indeed, and I never even raised my voice once. My philosophy was that if you have to shout, you have lost the game.

My father (I always get round to him) was an army sergeant, highly decorated. He was the most chaotic, undisciplined, messed up individual I have known. I wish he had been to a Steiner school instead of an army camp!

Cheers, M

Posting Kirsten's remarks was a good choice, however, what about Jada who has written letter upon letter to her parents and proved to be all lies? I have reread this thread, and don't see where you state you have actually watched Brat Camp. Although I take offense at the names you are calling those of us who think this show is good, you are certainly entitled to your opinion. I would never dream of calling you names because I disagree with you. I am a parent, and altho neither of my son's needed a place like Brat Camp, there are kids who's parents are NOT raising their kids right, or who's kids are taking wrong paths, and at least these parents are attempting to do something to help get them straightened out. Of course most kids sent there are going to bad mouth it - they would rather be out partying, drinking, drugging, etc, but what about those it DOES help? I can see changes in quite a few of these kids on this show - is that a bad thing?

We work so hard to provide a nice home and the best of everything. Everything that is except time. Kids need parents they need to see them more then a couple of hours in the evening when everyone is worn out from a long day. They need more then a Saturday at a Soccer game or a Dance class.

Myzen,

Is this the sort of school you are refering to?

http://www.rickross.com/reference/waldorf/waldorf4.html
http://www.rickross.com/reference/waldorf/waldorf2.html

I hope not.

~ugh anyone know of an unknown and unfindable rock I could crawl under this gets rather overwhelming at times.

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Myzen said:

I have worked (in teaching) with disturbed kids myself, some very disturbed indeed, and I never even raised my voice once. My philosophy was that if you have to shout, you have lost the game.

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Bravo, Myzen! I think you've said it better than I could.

~Alexiel

myzen, in all of the time that i worked with disturbed teens, i never once raised my voice. i didn't have to. i provided strict discipline, love and respect. i always found something to respect in every child. even if it was the way he/she walked. i found something in there.

i still am not sure that the "Brat Camp" should have been televised, but that doesn't make me any less supportive of an environment where these children receive discipline, responsibilites and respect.

my daughter is married and has a child. stella was born three months early and my daughter dealt with that so maturely and naturally. she told me that the camp taught her that there was no obstacle too big for her to handle. AND her counselor never, ever raised his voice or compromised the group's dignity. that's all i have to say about this. pat

Sorry but I don't see any torture on Brat Camp. In fact I would say these kids are getting alot of one on one counceling there. probably more than the parents ever thought about giving them. As for jada! geez that kid has really serious issues...far more then she even knows perhaps.

Those kids probably needed help but appropriate help not kidnapping and mind control brainwashing that can mess them up for life. While some may attain to desired goals of their parents it's also apparent that many if not most do not come through these experiences without problems. These camps aren't new or are the techniques of mind control, apparently they tend to change the names after one gets in trouble with the law and a bad reputation because parents and the social infrastructure so often fail kids that there is money to be made.
http://www.ficausa.com/Deaths.html
http://www.thestraights.com/index.htm
As for what would happen to those kids who don't get such "help"
well they may unlike those on the linked list, I counted about 92 dead from their "treatment" not counting those who die afterwards from suicide, live to find something appropriate. If you read through the links you might see that the sage walk camp is on watch lists and not considered harmless by some who watch such things. There may very well be good programs out there, family counseling, anger management and other sorts of counseling may be more appropriate than any isolation camp that people aren't free to walk away from easily.



~Down

Down, you know I can allow for your opinion to be expressed, but please know that I disagree with it and consider it "skewed." The use of the term goulag is almost offensive to me, as I am involved in providing positive outdoor experiences to youth. They are anything but soviet forced labor camps.

Psychological aspects of outdoor experiences

Even one contact with nature provides a positive life changing force. I understand the idea that it's brainwashing... imo that is extreme, but even so, the way so many of our youth have been brainwashed to refuse to acknowledge authority just might require an equal but opposite force to help them assimilate into real life.

There are some methods that are too strict and domineering, and quite positively abusive. Educated adults (in the field) need to make those determinations, imo, not the youth ( or even adults) who are caught up in the drama.

I think more of this tough love is needed, as it's definitely a good alternative to locking our youth up and treating them like the adults they aren't.

fayerody,
you may have lucked out with your daughter, there may be good programs among the bad, you didn't mention which one you were involved with.

I haven't watched the show except for 5 mins. or so, I think editing may likely fail to show the whole picture anyway.

Parker10,
I haven't seen the scared straight movie so I can't comment on it other than to point out that the concept has been used to abuse. In a short search I found the following:

___________
Friday :: April 01, 2005
'Scared Straight' Kid Beaten by Guards

by TChris

What lesson does a troubled 13-year-old kid learn when his father, using a "scared straight" approach to crime prevention, turns him over to prison guards who brutalize him?

Anthony Donald Sr. ... placed the youngster, who has never been charged with a crime, in the hands of two friends who are Shuman guards. ... Donald Jr. said the guards ordered him to strip in a public place and put on a uniform. When he refused, he said, four guards forced him to the ground, beat him and stripped off his pants.

The four guards, employed by the Shuman Juvenile Detention Center in Pennsylvania, are designated as "child care workers." Child abusers would be a more appropriate title. They've been charged with unlawful restraint and false imprisonment, as well as a variety of other crimes, including assault, child endangerment and making terroristic threats. The father is charged with conspiracy and child endangerment.

The boy's mother legitimately wonders how the guards treat children who are actually detained in the facility if this is how they behave with a friend's child.
Posted Friday :: April 01, 2005| Juvenile Offenders
_______________


That's certainly beautiful country and the living in a teepee in the snow and probably other of the outdoor adventure activities are things I have done and enjoyed immensely as well in the Rockies and elsewhere under harsher weather conditions than I saw in my brief view, voluntarily. They crossed a line, according to what I've read on the site I linked to, when they sent kids there involuntarily, that is called kidnapping and should be treated as such, any other additional criminal charges warranted would depend on what they did to their hostages after that.

Artist, and other's who are still supporters of such boot camps,
I don't know what else to say to you other than, read some of the critical analisis, and that the apparent results of the "positive outcomes" may be just that, apparent but not so real as it might seem.

Sky,
I'm a huge fan of wilderness adventures, but the use of wilderness to isolate and control, mind control, and abuse people (kids are fully people and entitled to all the human rights that any of us are) against their will it's a crime against human rights in the real world, no matter the motivation. I don't have personal experience with outward bound or NOLS another wilderness group that two high school friends were part of and "seemed" unharmed by though being a skeptic I would have to look into their programs, records and critical reviews, to evaluate them individually. Each of the abusive youth gulags (I do compare some of them to the Russian prison/re-education camps based on what I've read, differences of degree may not be differences of kind) has a big rationalization for their crimes fall apart under thorough rational logical scrutiny. These camps are big business preying on the frustrations of parents having trouble guiding their kids. In the present nearly unregulated legal climate parents may have an even bigger job weeding out the systematic abusers for profit than they had to begin with. (buyer/citizens beware)

~Down