[angeleyes]

Thanx, LMo, for the invitation to do a summary. I stumbled across this site while searching for some answers or understanding or insite into my son's situation. I recently visited him in a different state and returned home yesterday sad. I decided to openly acknowledge what I have quietly and quickly minimized in my own mind and to others with my son for many years now.

I had my son when I was 19. He was a live wire! He was active and really inquisitive. He was a beautiful blonde haired, blue-eyed boy with a lot of life....and a lot of questions.

By the time he was 2 family and friends were suggesting that he be tested as a "gifted child". Sometimes I belived he really was exceptional and other times I just thought I was a proud and predjudice mother.

His father was a very intelligent, charismatic, criminal addict. I was young, uneducated, and naive. I stayed......and stayed........
We were married 13 years. Many of those years were horrendous. A few were sweet, loving and uneventful.

Through the years Nate really advanced. I homeschooled all of my children. (Four of them at the time.) Nate taught himself binary math at 8 (I had never even heard of it.) He built his own computer at 8 or 9. During his years of 10-12 he created his own little "world" named Metronomia. He created a written and verbal language for it! It was amazing!

I knew that he worked on this stuff. I really felt that he buried himself in his room to avoid the open conflict being demonstrated in his home; he had created an escape from the reality that I will never be able to fully discrible.

Later, his father and I divorced. I moved to a different state with the children. I put them in counseling and enrolled them in a wonderful private school while I went to college, too. It was a difficult and exillerating time. I began to dream dreams and actually make them come true.

All the while my children were the focus of my life. I loved them soooo much. They discribe the time as knowing me as angry and absent. I was stressed and overwhelmed, but challenge and exhillerated. I worked hard to excel at everything. I see now how my children paid the price for that. But, at the time I was doing the very best I could and I am proud of all that I singly accomplished during that time.

Nate's teacher discribed Nate as "dark". He recented counseling. He felt like it was labeling him somehow. But he became almost despondent at times. His father was arrested during this time, and sent to prison. It was hard on us all, even though he and I had been divorced for several years by this time. Nate completed his 8th grade and his first year in high school was a horrible struggle for him. He was in public school and hated it. He was going to the library and choosing to read things like quantum physics and other very brainy material and resented being in a class where he had to read material and answer questions like, " In the story, what color was the ice cream cone Johnny was eating." He became more and more withdrawn. He would be in his room for hours working on simple homework assignments. I was raising 4 children, trying to be an "involved" mom at their very demanding-of-parents private school, going to college, rebuilding my own life and sense of self and working an internship during this time. I was also dating a very good, but hard to relate to Dr. during this time. He was very good to the kids in the ways he could be, but struggled with relationships with them.

During this time one of Nate's teachers told me she thought that Nate was "Special Ed." material. That he had a hard time following instructions and seemed confused by instructions.

He related to me that school was very stressful to him and he could not function well if he had to arrive just as the bell was ringing. He needed 20 or 30 minutes to "get ready" after he got there.

He basically had 2 male friends in school that were also from single-mom homes. They would often be discribled as disturbed boys.

Nate startled easily his entire life. That really stands out to me. And he was very sensitive to anyone in need or experiencing pain. He never was too big to hug me - even in public and he never really argued. He would ask to "talk to me" and was always very reasonable....well beyond his years.

His friends were dropping out of school and I had to struggle to keep him in school. I mean, really work hard. His Jr. year we spent in Hawaii. He homeschooled that year and he did great. I basically just designed it like a college level course with mostly independent study and research papers. He did great and considers that year one of his best. His Sr. year he went to a private school and graduated as validictorian.

His other brother and his sisters also excelled in the schools they were in. They did not struggle with adjustments like he did, but all graduated with honors.

In the meantime Nate grew more withdrawn. He did not date. He had few friends. My parents had tried to help him learn to drive but it was scarey. My dad used to say that Nate would start describing a scientific process and just drive on the wrong side of the road. He passed the writted part of his driving test, but could never pass the driving part. He failed miserably twice and never tried again.

I caught him once in 9th grade high on pot. I watched closely, but never actually caught him again. His siblings tell me that he was using other drugs during this time, too. I don't doubt it.

He was always brilliant. He was an excellent artist. He drew the eye of his instructors as being exceptional, but dropped out when they required him to speak to the class about his work. He experienced so much anxiety that he could not bare it.

I and my family have discribed Nate for years as one of those guys that is so brainy, but no common sense. Inside, I have worried there is more. I can not put a finger on it, though.

In my recent visit to see him an event occured where I accompanied them to the police station to make a report. The police officer pulled me aside and explained that he worried that my son was currently using a substance and was obviously "slow". He was concerned that my son was being taken advantage of because of that.

More than once he has been taken advantage of by people "needing" to borrow money, etc.

He has such a sweet heart. And when he is around one or two of his family members he is warm and talkative.

I have wondered about some sort of anxiety disorder. He seems obsessed with good and evil type stuff. I have wondered about more serious disorders. Still, he is so perfect in my eyes in so many ways.

The best way I have heard him discribed is as a young Einstein that paints the cobblestones to find his way to work while he is thinking so deeply on other things.

Still, it hurts that someone like the police see him as "slow". Not, afraid or anxious, but "slow". He said that he had a difficult time interviewing my son because he could not follow the conversation. I know what he is discribing. Yet, I can't understand or explain it.

He is very likeable, but quiet and withdrawn. Simple things seem complicated to him. He can only keep jobs like dishwasher. Something simple, repeatitive and brainless. I have seen him get fired from positions because the boss thinks he "just left the job without being told to'. Nate discribes confusion over what his instructions were. He is living in a motel paying 600 a month on a week to week basis while making 800 a month as a dishwasher. His one and only girlfriend (until recently)was extrememly controlling. He couldn't do anything for himself and I felt like she kept him stuck by doing everything for him. (I.E. finding him employment where she worked, driving him everywhere, finding the houses to rent, reminding him of birthdays and important events.) When they broke up (he did it) he was homeless and jobless and carless. He rarely calls anyone in the family. When he does it is always such a happy reunion. His brother and sisters love him so much, and he loves them. But, unlike them, he will go years without contacting anyone. We hear things like he is living in the woods, etc.

I have basically accepted that he is very nature oriented and doing that for him is not like doing that for most people. His new girlfriend that is 18 going on 12 is sweet, but, wow, she is something. Really, 11 or 12 emotionally. Maybe that is good for him because he has to be the adult to her, I don't know.

I have blamed myself for being overbearing. Maybe he just didn't seperate from me. So, I just try to think of his long absenses as part of the seperation process that is just different than the other kids who openly tell me no or to butt out.

I don't know. It is all so confusing and complicated and multi-faceted. He is briliant with art, and computers and math. Every person in our family has stories that we tell that we all "wow" over when it comes to him. And time to time we tell those stories when we miss him or are wondering where he is and what he is doing, but have no way to contact him.

The strange thing is, I usually start praying that he will call and within hours to days he does!

But, this time when the policeman discribed him as "slow" moving his finger in circles around his ear, when I felt the protective rage well up in me, I just calmed down and gentle shook my head that I understood.

I just can't ignor that gut feeling anylonger that says it is more than lack of common sense from a brilliant guy.

I really would appreciate resources, feedback, even "aha" thoughts or feelings.

He wants me to go pick him up and help him move back here in a couple of weeks. I am going to. I want to help him, but I do not want to enable him. Yet, I don't want to neglect him, either.

jSometimes I feel guiltly that I neglected his needs and that it is too late. He is verrrrry self- reliant. And I both love and respect that in him. But, I wonder if it developed from my neglect.

I have resources to deal with the "me" part of this. But, I would really appreciate some feedback.

[Rapunzel]

It sounds like your son is very intelligent. Sometimes that can be a real challenge. He sounds pretty sensitive too. Parenting a child like that is not easy, and it sounds like you have done the best that you could do. No parent is perfect, but you genuinely care about him and try to do what's best. That sounds like a good parent to me. I'll try to write more when I have more time. Thanks for your summary.

<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

[LadyDragus]

he sounds like a very smart and gifted young man, I do not know how old he is now, I only see the age of you when you had him, I am asuuming in his early 20's but not sure
THis is a hard time for all people.
SOunds like he may have a small disorder, but clinical doctors should tell you waht that is,..
I would try helping him as much as you think you can, let him move back in and try to get him into computers again, since you said he used to be good at that, might give him an outlet he so dearly needs.

Talk more when you respond and tell us how it went ok.

<font color=purple>The way to love anything is to realize that it might be lost.
- G.K. Chesterton
<font color=purple>

[angeleyes]

Thanx so much for your response. I nearly cried when I read it. Yes, I do love him so much. I look forward to further feedback from you.

[angeleyes]

Hi. Yes, Nate just turned 23 this week. I am interested in what you said. "Small disorder". I would love for you to expound on that. Also, the "clinical doctor" statement...? How does that happen? How do I suggest that to him? There has been this cycle of resentment about going to the counselors in the first place. I remember him being verrrrry upset shortly after the divorce. He over reacted when I told all the kids that we were all going to go to counseling. When I explored it further with him he was yelling, asking me to finally tell him what was wrong with him. He had always felt that something was wrong with him and everyone knew it and no one would ever tell him what it was! He was about 12 then. That is a very difficult developmental time to feel seriously different from others. To this day I have no idea how he got that idea. At this point nothing out of the ordinary had been demonstrated (outside of outstanding acheivements). It was like he began living this believe out to the extreme.

[kvinneakt]

Wow!

There are so many stories I relate to here, and this is another one. My son has some similar history.

My nearly 20 year old son is very smart, too smart for his own good, been busted, continues to use drugs (but so do I from time to time), barely finished high school, refused college, can't hold any job more than a couple weeks. He is now in Japan, living by illegally playing music on the streets. I just found out he has to keep their local mafia happy to keep them from threatening him.

He has been coming and going now for 1 1/2 years. Somehow he stays safe and healthy.

You get used to it somehow. Not completely. It is not like you don't worry your guts sick, but you learn to cope.

What I am not sure about is your son's mental health. My son's thankfully, is a little paranoid. Does he have a diagnosed mental illness?

Sorry for rambling. I am too tired to be making much sense.

Thank you for sharing and we will be with you throught thick and thin.

Wherever you go, there you are

[angeleyes]

Thank you for your response and understanding. I know what you mean by "learn to cope with it". I, too, have had disconnet from him more than usual. There is just an understanding that we have about Nate. "That's just Nate" has become a big part of our family vocab.

No, he has not received a diagnosis. But, maybe I minimized what I saw too much. I don't know. Does it sound to you like he has one?

I almost feel like years later I am buying into his childhood fears. (If you have read any previous posts.)

Thanx so much for the support.

[heidu]

Hi Angeleyes,
I don't have a lot of time right now but I wanted to say it is very evident you love your son and all your children dearly.
You did the best you could and it doesn't sound like you've done too bad :O)

The only thing that popped out to me was Autism. There are many varying levels and from what I understand it has alot to do with being very brilliant but not having social skills or "everyday" skills.
Wish I had time to write but if you can get him in to a doc so he can be evaluated you may find some answers.
Wish you the best.
Heidu

The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it.
John Ruskin

[LadyDragus]

Look at some of the other sites that Doc John has listed and see if any of the quizzes can help.
small disorder means something is not cemically right, I am not a doctor, and i have had very little expericne with gifted childern, the only thing i did when I did work with some, was to try and understand how there brain was working.
When you mentiond that he loved computers, most gifted love to sit and either play games on them or higher palystation type games...

I am only saying what I did when I worked with a young boy about the age of 8, and he was always full of hate like you describe and would go off on his own and hung around with the trouble makers. His mom is almost at her wits end. but he has had hosptial stays, for one reason or anthoer because of his aggresive attudie...

Not sure what else to say, you are both in my prayers and hopeing you can find some answers out there.
I knwo getting someoen to go to a doctor is a very hard thing at any age. But if you show it is because you lvoe him it hopefully should make him accpet it better ??? Not sure do not know where you stand on the idea of having him watched by a doctor to see how far his "gift" goes..

<font color=purple>The way to love anything is to realize that it might be lost.
- G.K. Chesterton
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[LMo]

Hi Angeleyes:
You are obviously an excellent and caring mother, despite the mistakes you said you made. Nate is very, very lucky to have you and his brothers and sisters.

Gosh, this triggers so many thoughts and memories. Not sure where to start.

My boyfriend's childhood was similar to yours, and his dad and Nate's have some things in common from what I know. He hasn't heard from his dad since he was 14. And my boyfriend's initially noted gifted intelligence and eventual academic deteroriation parallels your son's (only he didn't have the high school intervention and recovery - GREAT job, Angeleyes!). He's not homeless or carless (he lives with me and we share my car), but he has been essentially jobless for several years now. The scariest thing that you wrote in your post is that YOUR SON'S EX-GIRLFRIEND SOUNDS LIKE ME. Hopefully, I'm NOT controlling, but I don't know... maybe his family thinks I am? Because I have been doing the same things for my boyfriend that Nate's ex-gf was doing for him? Honestly, as his mom - do you see that as controlling? Or was it something else, too? I really want to know, because I do NOT want to control my boyfriend, and his mom hasn't given me that feedback (at least not to my face). He is also, like Nate, very quiet and withdrawn (not usually around me, but around others, definitely), considers simple things complicated (and conversely, complicated things like mechanics and physics are simple for him), and does not make efforts to keep in touch with his family or friends.

PLEASE do not beat yourself up over how he has turned out. You haven't neglected him. You've been observant and supportive, from what you have said. But I do think that you're right in that at his age, it is probably beyond a case of a brilliant guy with a lack of common sense. A medical and/or psychological evaluation is probably a good idea, I would think.

My boyfriend's mom hasn't really gotten too involved in his depression, although I know that she worries about him a lot, and feels guilty about the same things you feel guilty about. This is such a tough situation, with no "project plan" to follow to ensure a guaranteed positive outcome.

Your summary and background information is great, thank you. Why don't you talk more about this next step of him moving back home. Also, do you have a counselor for yourself? I cannot imagine doing what you are doing by yourself - you are obviously a very strong woman. I admire you, already.

We are ALL going to be a-ok!

[pebblypoo]

Hi angeleyes,

You did an excellent job of describing your son. Of course, I'm no psychiatrist, but am a nurse with a BA in psychology. Everything you described points to schizophrenia, to me (again, my limited ability to diagnose......)

You did say that your son is usually reasonable to talk to (though he resents counseling?) Is it possible that you could sit with him, explain how concerned you are, and even point to specific events, even write them out like you did for us, to show him in black and white the connections, the continuity of these events. I would think it would also be helpful for you to speak with the Dr. giving them these specifics as you did here. What you've described sounds textbook. Let him know that you are concerned for his well-being and that it couldn't hurt to see a psych. for evaluation? Also, point out the facts..............that it is a chemical imbalance, nothing more, and meds often help.

The more I go back and look at the specific instances you described above...............................from everything I recall, to me, he sounds schizophrenic. I hope he is open to evaluation and improving the quality of his life (his happiness!)

Take Care,
pebs

<font color=purple> The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated--Gandhi

Sometimes I lie awake at night in bed and I ask, "Is it all worth it?" And then a voice says, "Who are you talking to?" And another voice says, "You mean, ' To whom are you talking?'" And I say, "No wonder I lie awake at night."--Charlie Brown </font color=purple>

[Rapunzel]

Hi Angeleyes,

Please tell us more about Nate as you think of things and as things come up. I think that him moving back with you could be really good for him, at least for a while. He's been out on his own, but having his mother's support for a little while just sounds like a good idea to me.

You mentioned that he resented going to counseling before, and I don't know if his feelings about that have changed at all now, but if he will, I think that an evaluation would be a good idea. For one thing, he is a smart kid, and he has the potential to do a lot more vocationally than the things that he has done. Counseling doesn't have to be about mental illness - sometimes it is to help someone find direction in life. Do you know anything about vocational rehabilitation? That is what I would recommend looking into. It is a state program that helps people who have a disability to be able to go to work. It can be any kind of disability, mental or physical. Even if Nate does not have a diagnosis, there is some reason why an intelligent person like him would keep working at low level jobs and have difficulty keeping a job. The first thing that voc. rehab. would do is an evaluation to find out what might be going on with that. But when you talk to Nate about it, emphasize the career development aspects, not that you suspect any kind of mental disorder.

As far as possible problems, there are several possibilities. The main one I am thinking about is Asperger's, which is a developmental syndrome somewhat similar to autism, but not as severe. Children with Asperger's are often very bright, but they fixate on certain things they are interested in and have difficulty understanding people and interacting socially. Inventing his own language goes along with that very well.

There have also been some traumatic factors such as his father going to prison. That's not easy for a kid to deal with. And it sounds like you don't really know the extent of his substance abuse. What did the counselor say about him before?

You have been a loving and caring mom and have gone above and beyond what is expected of a parent. It sounds like homeschooling was good for Nate. I homeschool my kids too. Well, two out of three this year - I allow them a choice and one wanted to go to public school this year.

What did you study in college? I'm going back to school also. Sometimes I can't do things with the kids as much as they would like because I have to study, but I hope it will be worth it for all of us by the time I finish.

Well, let us know how things are going. If you have any more comments or questions, you know where we are. I can find more information about Asperger's if you like (that is my sister's main area of interest - she is a psychiatrist; I'm studying psychology so I generally know where to look for that kind of information too.)


<font color=purple>"The real problem of mental life is not why some people become insane, but rather why most avoid insanity." -Erich Fromm</font color=purple>

[angeleyes]

Hi LMo. Thank you so much for your responses. I truly appreciate them, and learn from them.

Well, many things that made Nate's ex appear "controlling" were unsaid. So, only you can decide if that shoe fits for you. You seem very aware of, and able to reflect on and process your behaviors and the exchanges that you two have, so I wouldn't really worry about being or appearing "controlling".

And, yes, I do think that there were other factors besides just being controlling. I think that she was very loving and well-meaning and that she did for Nate what he wasn't doing for himself. We oftentimes call that enabling. I am recalling the post recently about the differences between helping and enabling.

I think that she "needed" Nate to be someone that he wasn't and her motives were more than just helping out of love. We can all be guilty of that from time to time. I have fond feelings for Paula (his ex) but I think that it forces him to have to be more responsible and aware to not have her in his life. The flip side of that is he stays in contact with us less and is less stable without her "help".

It is a difficult situation to love and support someone like Nate and your boyfriend. I do not have to interact with Nate on a daily basis like you must with your boyfriend.

The greatest thing that I learned being married to an addict is that at some point I had to take the focus off him and put it on myself. That was difficult for me. But when I did my life became much better. So did my children's. I did not ever quit loving their dad, but I could not keep them and myself happy and safe being in a committed relationship with him.

Each one of us has to learn to question why we "love" the people we love. Well, I say that, and I know many people that are happy and content to NOT look at those kinds of issues. I guess that what I meant was that I had to look at myself and why I was staying with someone with such deep and painful issues.

I have some regrets for staying so long with Nate's dad. And yet, I would do it exactly the same given the same situations. Not because I wouldn't want the opportunity to do some things over, or better, but strictly because I have accepted that I was where I was and that it "takes as long as it takes" and that however long that is, it is okay.

The same with you. As you work toward that balance of how much focus to give your boyfriend vs how much to give yourself I have a hunch that this issue with him will fade more in time.

I just had another one of those personal "aha" moments as I was writing to you. I guess that what I struggle with with Nate, is NOT making him the identified patient in our family. I am struggling with taking honest and open looks at him because I fear that I am making him the identifed patient in our family or that I did that, somehow.

I am not sure whether it was you or someone else that asked what Nate's counselor said about him years ago when we were all in counseling. He really felt like "nothing" was wrong with Nate. He really liked him and reported to me that he saw himself as a kid in Nate. He worried more about my other son, Joe.

Joe did go through very angry moments. Years of them. And Joe was my biggest handful. Yet, he has made a wonderful, fully functional man. I adore him.

Nate was more internalized anger. Joe openly demonstrated it.

Oh brother! I am just rambling. I am flooded with thoughts and feelings and memories of those precious kids. I love them so much. Right now my two year old needs some attention and I better take advantage of these moments while they last. (So 20 years from now I won't be writing about him, too. hehe)

Thanx again for your caring and thoughtful responses. I look forward to talking with you more about this.

Have a good day!