Hate Penn. State

I'm sorry you've been told that and I'm not getting personal with you, plus I don't know what's your diagnosis. I wish there was a successful treatment for pedophiles but currently there isn't and I wish there was. Maybe there will be one day. Its not that I don't have hope for them, its just not available.

If you ask pedophiles they probably don't even want treatment and they feel entitled to these acts. There's even an online group that promotes this behavior and they claim they just love boys/girls. The fact is, this is a crime and he should be punished. If there's rehabilitation then yes they should get it.

I read part of the report and will finish the rest of later. I place some of the fault on the parents for trusting and letting their sons go to his house, even sleep over. Is it because they thought he was this great guy or they liked the status of an important man showing interest in their son IDK.

Firstly I want to make it clear I'm not fighting with you. Punishing an adult for a crime isn't the same as punishing a child, so we can't confuse the two. Personally I don't punish my children but I discipline them by using Positive Parenting. The most that happens is they lose a privilege and the majority of the time we talk things out fairly. If we take your example and apply a broad brush to all criminal activity, then no one would go to jail because we're not supposed to punish anyone. How would there be order in society?

Putting someone in jail, or isolating them from society, is NOT the same as punishment -- or at least, not necessarily. I think we have to make the distinction between the use of (the minimum necessary) force, and punishment. Force can be used for good; punishment (to me, at least) always includes the aspect of condemnation. That is not good, not healing in any way. It just serves to make the condemner feel better for a short time.

If you notice, I never said we have to forego putting people in jail, though I don't like using that term, because we always think of it as "punishing". It is hard to make the distinction when you are not used to doing so, but I think it is essential.

What do you recommend be done to Mr. Sandusky for repeatedly abusing several boys and who was so bold to do it publicly? I don't know if you're a parent but if you're not, maybe you can try to understand how a mother would feel knowing this happened to her child. We also have to think how these now men's lives were affected by these actions. I think one of the main driving forces of a pedophile is authority and conquest over the weak.

I don't have any easy answers to the first. Isolating him in some fashion so that he does not repeat would be part of it.

I have seen stories of women, for instance, in jail for abusing their own children. They were so wrapped up in their own feelings, their own pain, their own confusion, that they did not really think about how their actions would affect small children. They saw themselves as the victims, they wanted their children to take care of them, and when that did not happen, they turned in fury upon the children. Only gradually did these women come to realize that their children could not be their parents, could not take care of them; only when they began to understand their own feelings with the help of understanding therapists, could they begin to see how they could change their ways, change their own lives. They did not come to see that as a result of being punished even more.

I think something similar has to happen with this present case. Takes more effort than simply locking someone away...

I think that how these boys, who are now men, feel about what happened to them is affected by how the rest of society reacts to it. If society (we) treat it as an unthinkable outrage, then they are more likely to feel damaged permanently; if society treats it as something damaging that happened but that can be dealt with, then I think it will be less traumatic to them.

I feel I am in the great minority here, if not totally alone in what I think. I am trying to avoid automatic, emotional reactions. In the past I think children, some children, were subjected more routinely to abuse than is now the case, and it was not thought that unusual, and that in some respects the children were less damaged by it than is the case when it is made to seem the end of the world.

I remember a TV show ("The Breaking Point") many years ago in which the hero psychiatrist was dealing with a young girl who had been raped, and he did not treat her, or the whole case, as a tragedy which never could be overcome. He was totally "on the side" of the girl, as he was with all his patients, but his attitude was not the conventional one at all. He did not make an overwhelming case of it... That program was not the favorite of mental health practitioners of its time.

I'm trying to say something and maybe not using the best way of saying it; it gives some the impression that I am trying to "justify" the abusers. I am not. I am not trying to "justify" anything. I am trying to comprehend.

Pachyderm - I see you're trying to understand and not taking the extreme witch hunt view. Personally I find it hard to understand a pedophile especially when some openly think its okay. I get that our reactions has an affect on how the victim feels but its a fine line to walk. This is why its illegal to have sex with a minor because they can't/not mature enough make their own choices.

pachyderm - thanks for the link to the report.
Again, it only affirms my belief that we all deserve the right to be "innocent until proven guilty".

It appears there were plenty of others along the way who should have made stronger efforts to report what was happening.

This opinion in no way means I don't have compassion for the victims.

I don't understand the people who are supporting JP (not on PC, but what I'm hearing in the news). By not going to the police, he ENABLED the abuse to continue. I keep hearing people say 'don't judge him' - that he is a good person and has a moral character. But i just can't reconcile that with a person who does nothing to stop this kind of thing.
If you found out someone was abusing children in your own home, would you let them back in? JP worked there for sixty years - he probably spent more time ther than at his home, and probably spent more time with those people than his family. Would he have done something differently if it had been his own grandchild in the shower?
I think that jP is even worse than the pedophile in a lot of ways. the pedophile is sick, probably doesn't even believe what he did was wrong in a way, but JP knew it was wrong and did nothing about it. There is no excuse.

* Why is society programmed this way!

I concur with this statement entirely, and could write volumes about how our present day cultures liberation over ones sexuality and lack of responsibility to other humans has led to degredation and violence we are seeing. A big 'who has to respect you attitude' learned from birth, if a human person even makes it that far.........
I wonder how many of his victims voluntarily gave it up to the "esteemed" coach ??
Brainwashed and groomed by his authority, they are victims none the less.

The more time passes and hastened by a failing economy, the more it appears it's getting down to 2 types of people differentiated in todays culture: predators and victims.
1 in 6, 1 in 4, or whatever stat you choose, I still feel afraid being a member of that quiet minority, with as many as 5 others waiting to assault me and mine.

I concur Penny StDuhnam, and failure of ones civic duty to notify, used to be a crime itself.
Tom S. in Tn.

I don't agree with everything that David Brooks says here, but take a read and see if you think there is anything worthwhile in this opinion piece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/15/op...perior.html?hp

Interesting article pachyderm and I'm familiar with the bystander affect. It takes a quick mind and a leader mentality to stand up when others are doing nothing. I also heard Sandusky gave a radio interview where he claims it was 'just horsing around'. I don't think this interview will help him. Since when is it okay for a adult male to shower with an underage child? True we all think we would do better in hindsight. I think this man felt untouchable - maybe he even intimidated the other men he worked with. I feel sorry for the now adult men who will hear him say it was nothing but horsing around.

From the article:
For 10 years? Give me a break.
When i encountered a sexually abusive person, it too me a few weeks to report the person to his superiors. And when it became clear his superiors weren't going to do anything about it, it took me a few months to take legal action. So i agree, it can take time to process situations and decide what to do. But 10 years?

I don't see how it's helpful to use a 'shaming' approach by saying that those who say they would have done something different feel superior. We should all think we would do something differently, because that would have been the right thing to do. It doesn't mean we think we're superior.

Yes I agree - the fact this was already investigated and there was so much lying is what's frustrating. It must be so maddening for the victims and families to see such powerful men stick together. Sorry to go off topic for 1 second - this reminds me of the clergy coverup - for decades it was swept under the carpet and the offenders were transferred instead of being kicked out and prosecuted

Now either one side or the other isn't telling the truth! The facts should be able to be determined in the course of time.

Well if several now adult males are saying one thing and he's claiming it was wrestling then I have a feeling where the pendulum will swing. Plus I think Paterno or someone saw him engaging in sex in the public shower. I give you credit for trying to be fair.

When I became a mother I swore I would guard my children and I hate the way some parents trust people blindly. They think this great guy who founded a charity MUST be this honorable person. Even schools let him take out a student early. At my daughters school only a parent is allowed to take a student out and they have to sign a paper 1st.

Yes, it seems that way. But let the process take its course. We don't have a choice in that, anyway!

Clearly, there is legal due process that must occur in this case. As such the defendants are afforded the absolute right of innocent until proven guilty. Testimony at the grand jury is not the same as testimony at trial. The legal process will wind its way to an outcome to culpability.

On the other hand, there is a clear sense of moral outrage that is separate and distinct from the legal proceedings, and people clearly have the right to express that outrage even in the absence of findings of fact. Even the allegations provoke this response, and it is valid and has merit.

So perhaps we should try to separate due process from our emotional reaction to the actions (or inaction) of the principals in this situation.

IMO there should be a profound and sustained outrage even at this allegation. It raises some fundamental questions about human nature, the tyranny of authority and money, etc... Simply the allegation of abuse should be evocative.

This is emotional response clearly should not be allowed to interfere with the legal findings in this case.

However, we get to feel the way we feel.

stumpy has it right. McQueary is going to come out looking like the hero in all of this, for being the only one willing to call them out, although calling dad now looks a little calculated. but - and I know this sounds cynical - why would you risk your own life and livelihood (ie job, and don't forget, they were going to prosecute the case in 2005 and the DA DISAPPEARED, WTF?) to protect some kid when his own parents are too stupid to protect him? "No good deed goes unpunished" was what we lived by in the corporate world, and at the university jobs, it was even more cutthroat. So you would get fired, and it wouldn't even change things - that's why it seems nobody did anything.

In one of my visits with my therapist he told me that children who are sexually abused often complain about being abused/manipulated by other people in their lives as well. He told me that children that have been sexually abused never learn what normal children learn as far as identifying good people from bad people. And when he said that I was taken back because I was identifying people in my life that were abusive towards me.
So when I left him I thought about it even more, running through different people and what I saw in them, and my experiences, and I concluded that my identification of these people being negligent or abusive was correct, it had nothing to do with me imagining anything. But I also noticed that even though I saw it other people either ignored it or wouldn't believe it or had and excuse for it, or they saw things, told me that they were disturbed by it and yet they feared saying anything, or that they could change anything, or even that they just couldn't believe how this person they observed did bad things and yet had such a following or a position of control.

I did propose the question here and I think I had added too much of my issue along with the question because it kind of got lost. But at the time I was asking the question I was still thinking about my own experiences and I even felt a need to recheck my own oppinions or reactions to what I truely felt was negligence and abuse of some kind. And as I look back I am always left with a feeling of disbelief about both the abuser and how abusers get away with their behaviors. And the constant disturbance that continuously runs through my mind is a fear of not being believed or that I was not believed or that I was thought to be over-reacting, and I was always so surprised at how people seemed to need to protect the abuser/wrong doer etc.

One of the things that all victims of abuse share is a very strong sence and desire for justice. And all victims also have a very strong desire for truth beyond the average person. Many people find a certain amount of acceptability in various lies or deceptions. And this is everywhere and seems to revolve around power entities. I just recently saw two specials, one about Lobbyists and all the underhanded things they do to buy the politicians attentions and approval and support, it was amazing to learn of all the methods that were used that could be under the radar so to speak. And then I watched another special about how pretty much all the politicians take advantage of insider trading information and accumulate a lot of wealth by it. Now this has been taking place for a long time, they actually slipped in a law that protects them from being charged with any crime and ALL political parties participate in this secretive personal wealth building privilage. And the average person is stuck swimming in the aftermath, losing life savings in the blink of an eye while all these privilaged politicians get the opportunity to prosper or quiety remove their investments before companies, medicare, credit card companies, banks etc. fall apart and thier stocks either fall or if a bill is in the making will rise.

As far as myself is concerned, I have personally witnessed this strange phenominon and I am suffering very badly because of it. I underwent a colonoscopy in 2006 where my spleen was insured. I ended up in the emergency room, was rushed to a hospital that started a journey of me witnessing different doctors that would not concur that I was injured during my colonoscopy. Oh yes, I had an injury, I was put in a hospital in the ICU, thinking that at any moment I was going to be taken into surgery to remove my spleen. But no doctor came to see me, or explain to me what was really taking place, and the reason for this is that no one wanted to admitt that I was injured during a procedure that may produce a lawsuit. No doctor wanted to take any risk in making any statements that would support what had truely happened to me. After I was released from the hospital I got my records and even the disc showing my spleen injury of which I was not shown and it was not even explained to me, and I went to the doctors office of the doctor that performed the procedure. I was met by his partner who also would not concur that I was injured during my colonoscopy. This doctor stared me in my eyes and proceeded to explain that I must have been in a car accident and how a seatbelt can cause this damage, or that I must have fallen. And then he talked about how the doctor that performed my colonoscopy was a nice man etc. No matter what I said, this partner of the doctor would simply not go anywhere near discussing the fact that I was injured during my colonoscopy and would not go over the damage or view the discs with me to explain to me what the damage meant or what my limitations were. I left that office in such a state of disbelief, feeling so abused somehow, and I could bearly drive home because I could not stop crying in confusion, being denied, and feeling abandoned. So many doctors, professionals playing this awful mindgame of denial and abandonment, I still have trouble believing such a an experience like this is real, and I honestly wonder how people can allow this to take place, stare at me in my fear and confusion and ignore me and leave me hanging in fear, real fear and confusion, and pain. And I don't think I would believe this had I not experienced it, and I am still very disturbed by it, who do we trust?

It was not until I did a job and happened to meet a young doctor that told me that the Insurance Companies make doctors sign an agreement that they will not say any wordage like, I am sorry, a mistake happened etc. that can lead to any form of lawsuit. And this young doctor was upset because he felt it interfered with the oath of putting the patients needs first. I do want to mention that even though my own GP who referred me to this specialist did not want to see me, I made an appointment anyway. I went in to his office with my husband where he finally admitted to me why no one would talk about the damage caused by the colonoscopy due to the fear of being sued. Ofcourse my reply was outrage and that him and all the other doctors failed me as a patient and put me through a great deal of psychological duress because of their fears. He did agree, but he also told me that the system is no longer about the patient, it is more about the rules put out there by insurance companies that restrict doctors from truely being honest with patients when something like this occurs.

I bet your all thinking lawsuit right? Oh, no, not unless my spleen was perminantly damaged, there was nothing I could do about how I was treated during my ordeal, nice huh? Talk about feeling manipulated, abandoned abused and powerless, yes, I can raise my hand on that one.

I could bearly get over that when in 2007 my neighbor was going to be negligent and his electric underground containment system for his dog was going to fail and as a result at night while I slept I was going to lose so much that I had worked so hard for for years. I am again dealing with an insurance company that is taking full advantage of whatever time line is placed for them to not respond to this damage. I have a neighbor that admitted the faulty system, and that it had been that way for about 3 months but now, because he has spoken to the insurance company is lying. I have an attorney that is old and suffering from some kind of memory issues that is making mistakes and all his associates are covering for him, including all the attornies I have called to try to replace him and now for four years I am trapped with so much damage in more ways than I could possibly every imagine and now I have this disorder that is crippling me. I have gotten worse because again I feel powerless, trapped, frightened and I do see the writing on the walls. Do I want to fight back? Yes, but I truely do not know exactly how I am going to achieve my goal of justice and the means to recover my life. And do I have some suggestions as to what to do? Yes, some suggestions, and I am thinking this through, but at the same time I have been so crippled, so unbelievably crippled by the psychological damage that is real and very dibilitating that I am trying to find the mental capacity to act without suffering the debilitation of the reaction that occurs in my brain that I cannot seem to overcome. They are seeing changes in the brain of someone who suffers from PTSD, I can feel it getting worse, I wish I could have the technological evidence showing what is happening to my brain that is so real and frightening, but it is not quite there yet, almost.

What is being discussed here is a lot more than just a child that has been sexually abused by a powerful person. It is awful, and people should come forward, but people are not the way we think they SHOULD BE. I know it is hard to believe, but I have experienced it myself, it is truely awful, but REAL.
It is more about every man for himself now in this world. To me, it is unbelievable and if you are involved in it, I can tell you, it results in such a sense of powerlessness that it is crippling. It is as if people now see things and they don't speak up because they are afraid of getting caught up in what can be like big spider web that can trap someone for a very long time. People simply do not want to be part of someone elses issues, people want to ignore reality, pretend it doesn't exist, they mind their own business, protect their own little worlds now. And it is really hard to see the depths of it, the reality of it, it really is.

Open Eyes

What is being discussed here is a lot more than just a child that has been sexually abused by a powerful person. It is awful, and people should come forward, but people are not the way we think they SHOULD BE. I know it is hard to believe, but I have experienced it myself, it is truely awful, but REAL.
It is more about every man for himself now in this world. To me, it is unbelievable and if you are involved in it, I can tell you, it results in such a sense of powerlessness that it is crippling.

Open Eyes[/quote] crippling? to a certain point..but no...i was abused horribly as a toddler ..up to a young adult...so i understand the effects & affects severe abuse can have on a psyche BUT that said...there comes a point where i had to make a decision to not allow that to rule my life.

ptsd is a part of me..as is DID, and my asthma, bipolar, hbp, arthritis etc..it does not define who i am. it is just another medical condition that i deal with.

unlike some others that may consider it a curse...DID is an amazing way for the brain & soul to handle trauma...if you look at the manner the body adapted to survive it just is mind boggling. it is an incredible survival skill. i feel fortunate that i was able to adapt & survive ..my sister unfortunately was not. DID also helped me with my career..i can multi-task in a crisis better than anyone i know.

that is not to say it is always wonderful...sure there are periods where life sucks..but i would venture to say that everyone has these.

feeling powerless about the penn state situation...no if anything i feel rage. this situation has empowered me to be ev en more outspoken about child abuse & sexual abuse.

my ptsd does not trap me, does not bind me...i use it to fuel my course of action..but that said i do not let it consume me because there is more to life than it. i have faced horrible situations in life, we all have...to wallow & constantly rehash them would not help me heal..it would just cover me in mud. i need to step out of the mud & move away from the mess & fix it so it dries up.

(sorry a little off topic kinda thing)

It's not such a huge paintbrush for me; it's a few individual men behaving badly, not "Penn State" but it is once again about boys being abused when girls and women are 91% of the victims and only 1% of the offenders and yet they get only about 1% of the "press".

I hear what you are saying Open Eyes, but I do think there are two separate issues here that have to be counterbalanced - the rights of the accused versus the rights/needs of the victim(s).

In this society we have decided to willingly transfer the power to mete out justice to the court system. This transfer causes a lot of the powerlessness of which you speak. Not only did a lot of us not have the power to control what happened to us, but we don't even have the control to exact justice to our satisfaction. That power now lies in the hands of another.

Now add to that, we all have a right to due process under the law. Our court system is by definition adversarial and as such the accused has the right to mount a vigorous defense against any charges. Thus, once again, the victim of a crime is subject to victimization all over again.

In the court system the rights are granted the accused.

Is the system a deterrent for pursuing justice? Yes. Even if one does come forward there is no guarantee prosecution will be successful. A preponderance of evidence is required and the threshold of reasonable doubt must be met.

So, personally, I find myself in a real quandary. I have been a victim of a crime and know all to well the thirst for justice. However, I also recognize the need for and absolute benefit of the rights afforded the accused.

In my state we have a wonderful system of coming forward called the "blind report". In this system a person can report a crime of a sexual nature, BUT no investigation or anything is sought UNLESS or UNTIL a sufficient number of persons have reported the same thing. At the time when the police/district attorney decides to pursue the case, the victim is contacted.

It makes prosecution go much more smoothly as more evidence has been gathered.

If it's such a common occurrence for females to be raped and sexually molested then, why would they get more press?
Wouldn't rarer male sexual assault, and especially rape committed by female perps, garner more public attention and the media desire to sell the story??

Wonder if a heightened recognition of male dignity and integrity would help in the fight against sexual violence for all humans???

Tom S. in Tn.

Stumpy, I can see how you are just thinking that what I see or feel about people hiding the truth and my examples here are because I am stuck in PTSD. Do I battle with it?, Yes and I am working on it. But it isn't blinding me to reality, it does, however react to the reality poorly. And because I do have it, I am cautious about how I proceed because I am fully aware that it can be used as an excuse against me, I hate how that can be a go to answer when I speak up. I am trying to have a life besides PTSD, it can be hard when faced with someone who is failing and will go right to it being my issue instead of his. At least both my husband and therapist sees it, my therapist wanted to call him with me but I feel that would only give him more reason to stick me in the mud even deeper.

What I am trying to convey here is the question of how someone can witness or know about something bad and not address it, allow it to continue, choose to ignore it. While I did give my personal accounts of experiencing forms of this myself, I also included examples where there are wrongs that are not reported, continue to take place and individuals do not speak up.

I understand what you are saying about our justice system and I can see why it is that way, after all there were times that people were falsely accused and were just hung or executed. So the fact that a person is innocent until "proven" guilty was meant to protect the innocent that may be unjustly accused. I also recognize that part of our system has also had to face all those people that have and still find ways to present a situation where they can sue and make money.

And it can be very difficult for someone who has a genuine injury due to a faulty procedure or genuine damage due to someone's negligence because of the obstacles put in place to protect against people who sue for anything or any reason.

But when we get angry or talk about someone not stepping in when they see abuse as was the case here, there is some hesitance because we have gotten to the point where in society today we have to truely think about the risks to ourselves when we DO step in to stop a situation like what happened here. And because I am older I can remember when people who ran to accidents to help someone trapped in a car before a car went up in flames or a situation similar and that person was sued because they caused further damage by the way they removed the victim from the car etc. It didn't matter if the victim was in immenent danger, or a person just quickly responded. So over the years it has been quietly suggested that it is better to not just enter into a rescue situation. So through the years there has been a growing message of what can happen if we decide to run to the rescue, we may become a victim ourselves. The younger crowd may not recognize this but those of us who are older can think back and see how a warning to all those who try to reach out has set in.

No good deed goes unpunished? Where do you think that came from?

Each and everyone of us can be a Monday morning quarterback and wonder why someone would witness this taking place and not intervene, or take so long to report it. And also we can wonder why young men failed to report thier own experiences for so many years. But, look at how many people refuse to believe that a man of this stature could do this. And there is actually a program called "What would you do?" that actually stages different scenarios of abuse to see how people react to it. I watched it a couple of times and it was interesting to see how many people chose to ignore certain situations and what they said when they were told it was staged and asked why they acted or didn't act.

Personally I think that it is terrible that people didn't speak up and I also think it is terrible that people can witness something like this and hesitate to get involved. But there are real fears that people have about being believed.

It is sad but I truely think that people just don't know how to react anymore.

I suppose that the only way we can promote people having the courage to step in, and report something disturbing is to show people that action will be taken no matter who is committing the bad act.

It is a very troubling topic.

Open Eyes

I don't have any strong impression of what the truth of this may be, but this article gives a different point of view on this subject:

"If you take away the anger and emotion surrounding Sandusky's alleged crimes, experts say there are some persistent myths about pedophiles that can sometimes make detecting and diagnosing them difficult. Demystifying pedophilia could go a long way toward preventing similar abuse in the future, according to the experts."

http://news.discovery.com/human/misc...ia-111118.html