[beauflow]

I remember a few months ago when I felt myself tearing apart inside due to fighting with myself; I stumbled upon an article on the internet talking about two selves in one, and a theory on if the parents that a child grew up with were opposites that a lot of times the product is a person that has two dominate personalities (within one) but yet are the complete opposite of one another.
(now admitely I can some what agree- I feel many times I have at least two me's that realize that they are me, but very difficult to get along with one another and are quiet of the opposites.. and, my parents were quiet opposite on morals and other things from one another.. along with just my upbringing at home, then going out to school to be some happy kid.).

I found the article again today I see no real actual psychology base on it, but I do remember reading one time that in psychology there is an actual term for this -- I am not sure if it is different persona or sub selves, though. I was reading some things also on False Persona.... (that though sounds a bit confusing to me right now).

(please note the reason why this is not in the DID form is due to I don't believe this is a DID topic; due to everyone has subselves with in as I understand it--- but if it needs to be moved, Guess see where fit for where the mods see this to go ).

I was just wondering if any one had some good literature on the topic.

I did find this book:
http://bookstore.xlibris.com/Product...0/default.aspx

I was thinking of it; but I know some on PC have some great suggestion with reading on some topics as well- so I thought I would ask.

Thanks.

[MudCrab]

Break the Cycle! Are you curious or skeptical about personality subselves? http://sfhelp.org/gwc/if/letter.htm

I do not know? I do know I already have enough going on.

[beauflow]

((Thank you MudCrab))
I know some what of how it may be with having too much going on, but at the same time, I like to understand things too to help cope with that all that is going on...

this Link Is Book Marked!
The guy's video was like omg, i think this is what i am looking for!

I find this really interesting...... I want some more understanding...

(My dad used to talk about how i often times said "we are ok" when I was little a lot, he never really teased me about it, but at the same time he made me very conscious of it- even though I may had changed my way of speaking in reference to self-- the parts never just disappeared)...

think i am curious more than skeptic

thanks again!

[Open Eyes]

Yes beauflow, we do have "subselves", mudcrab's posted link is a good one to ponder.
We are all born with pretty much a clean slate for a "subconscious" mind. While we are all born with basic human charectoristics, and genetic profiles that may give us some "talents or traits", we all begin developing our "subselves/subconscious mind" in our early childhood. As in all animals, we do alot of "imprinting", where we take on the body language and expressions and tempermental tendencies of our caregivers and older siblings. We also can take on messages from what we watch on television, and we learn to look for and recognize expressions of "good, exciting, funny, sad, angry, scared, pain,fear,determination and even stress as well as depressive moods".

Personally, I have always believed that everyone has "an inner child" that is the base of how they learn/feel/interact their whole lives.

What you are discribing about taking on the dueling roles of parents who may express different/opposing views is probable too. If we interact with "both" parents and watch them interact with each other, we absorb those messages as well. This, ofcourse can be productive and helpful, or it can be problematic. If both parents are "nurturing and supportive" we have a much better chance of developing an stronger "subconscious" mind that can give us alot of "postive inner messages" and "stronger self esteem" senses that we can utilize all our lives.

Many people think that their reactions/decisions/abilities/opinions/emotions are simply "who they are" and "how they are meant to be" as individuals. In reality though, much of who we are depends on what kind of messages we received in our childhoods. And as that is "different" for each person, we become "unique" in many ways. While we are all human and have basic human traits, alot of who we are is based on the "subconscious" mind that took in many different messages in our childhoods that we tend to draw on and add information to all our lives.

When I developed PTSD, I was responding to a tramatic event where I had spent many years building up my own business with a number of horses and ponies I had trained that were suddenly damaged by my neighbor's dog. I had to suddenly address eight injured animals with all different kinds of injuries. I was all of a sudden addressing so much that I went into "hypervigilance" mode and I stayed in that state of mind for a few months until I became completely exhausted. I was overcome with so many emotions that I just could not function.

At first when I developed what is called PTSD, I had constant flashbacks of them choking, limping, colicing, a leg that was so swollen it was like an elephant leg, and a dieing pony with blood coming from her nose and me having to euthanize her after over a month of IV's and constant around the clock care.

But then, after a while I began to experience different flashbacks from my childhood too. And that is when I began to learn who OE was and why that goes all the way back to my early childhood.

When I watched the video that MudCrab posted, I could relate to everything this man was saying. I can see how we all as human beings develope what he calls "subselves" and many people don't realize how all these inner conversations that we all have with ourselves truely develope. That each person has an inner balance that becomes "unique" to how they see the world, their lives and all the inner discussions that take place where they constantly make decisions about handling "their life and all the challenges that are presented to them every day".

When PTSD takes place, a person has faced some kind of tramatic event/events that they begin to have such a sense of loss and confusion that the normal inner conversations that take place becomes confused and severely inbalanced. And in this struggle the ability to have a sense of balance is so disrupted that the person who suffers "withdraws" in confusion and experiences a strong sense of inablity to "interact" normally. There is such a strong sense that being able to explain this challenge to others feels nearly "impossible". The experience is also so confusing to the person who is challenged that often they become frightened and very confused themselves, and it doesn't take long for them to recognize that this present confusion can become "very crippling" all in itself.

I would have to say that one of the biggest challenges for someone who is struggling with PTSD is how others "fail to believe how they are really struggling".

One of my biggest ongoing messages to others that struggle is the developement of a newer strong self that begins to take on the leading/guiding role of "self nurturing".
This strong self is much more "conscious" and is willing to "observe" the inner challenges with understanding and empathy and be willing to have a sense of compassion and open mindedness inspite of this "inner confusion" that takes place.
Instead of saying to self that "I am the sum total of my past and all my subconsious messages that I have utilized and considered my "sense of self", a new message forms that says, "I am going to be open minded, observe all that I had thought was "self", see all the inner weaknesses and personal confusion, and develope a new understanding of self "inspite" of this confusion".

I feel that as we continue to understand how the human brain learns how to form what we call our "unique" identity? If we understand that what this man is talking about in this video clip is how we all learn how to process information, we can find new ways to "heal" when we struggle with many of the "psychological" disorders that take place. In many ways we "are" developing therapies that work on helping a person learn how to "correct their inner messages that are unhealthy". However, what can happen is if a patient is "unwilling to consider they "can" adapt new and more positive inner messages, therapy is not helpful. Much of that is due to their not seeing "immediate improvement".

What I have come to recognize myself is that when we begin to develope "any new skill" there is a time line to actually gaining this new skill so that we can tap onto it without needing to "carefully think about it". Well, with most human beings, seeing is believing. So, for some, unless they can "see how the brain slowly developes new pathways of information and skills, they will decide that what is already there is the only way they can think and process. But it isn't.

I realize my post is rather long beauflow, but I thought I would give you some thoughts to consider as you "investigate" this topic. As I have come to know you, and that you are challenged with PTSD, I also see you are putting forth a lot of effort in "your healing".

As far as your saying "we" when you were small, keep in mind that human beings do not form a sense of "one self" until around age 5. Just so you don't get confused and think you were not normal as a child.

Open Eyes

[Douglas MacNeill]

I noticed a particularly readable and enjoyable book on the whole topic of subselves and the social situations that generate them.

The book is called Multiplicity, by a science writer from England named Rita Carter.

Here's the link to a page on Rita's web site about this book:http://ritacarter.co.uk/page6.htm

Copies of it are available on Amazon.com; just follow this link:
http://www.amazon.com/Multiplicity-S.../dp/031611538X

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by beauflow

I remember a few months ago when I felt myself tearing apart inside due to fighting with myself; I stumbled upon an article on the internet talking about two selves in one, and a theory on if the parents that a child grew up with were opposites that a lot of times the product is a person that has two dominate personalities (within one) but yet are the complete opposite of one another.
(now admitely I can some what agree- I feel many times I have at least two me's that realize that they are me, but very difficult to get along with one another and are quiet of the opposites.. and, my parents were quiet opposite on morals and other things from one another.. along with just my upbringing at home, then going out to school to be some happy kid.).

I found the article again today I see no real actual psychology base on it, but I do remember reading one time that in psychology there is an actual term for this -- I am not sure if it is different persona or sub selves, though. I was reading some things also on False Persona.... (that though sounds a bit confusing to me right now).

(please note the reason why this is not in the DID form is due to I don't believe this is a DID topic; due to everyone has subselves with in as I understand it--- but if it needs to be moved, Guess see where fit for where the mods see this to go ).

I was just wondering if any one had some good literature on the topic.

I did find this book:
http://bookstore.xlibris.com/Product...0/default.aspx

I was thinking of it; but I know some on PC have some great suggestion with reading on some topics as well- so I thought I would ask.

Thanks.

here where I live and work in New York which is in the USA, we dont call this subselves. here we say the child is very resilient and had learned how to adapt. just like a normal person would adapt to having to completely different jobs... a bartender and an author/artist. in one job the person must be able to handle working with the public, being sociable and know their liqours. where as in the other professions the person must be able to spend long hours alone, doing work that entails being alone, no social skills needed until they decide to sell their works.

we have many kids who are from divorced parents that learn to adapt their self with the two conflicting worlds...being with mommy and moms set of rules at moms house on moms time and then going to dads and have a completely different home, rules, expectations.

most of these children from divorced homes that we treat here at the crisis center havent any personality problems/disorders. they have adjustment issues, abandonment issues and conduct disorders...

so no I do not agree with the article.

[beauflow]

(((Thanks all for the inputs))

Douglas McNeill thanks for the links too

Amandalouise -
I can respect your disagreeing with this idea- (To be honest though, I am not sure if it is of the story of how I stumbled upon it or if the idea of on sub selves is what is disagreed with) either way though-

As the Link that MudCrab posted that is of Peter K. Gerlach, he mentions "a very alien idea to many, even some mental health professionals"
Peter Gerlach does claim to be in the mental health profession himself-

But to be honest, that is the great thing with psychology--- It will be an ever growing field.
Personally I can truly respect docs that mention there is so much to still learn with things of the brain; so they keep learning even if they have their doctorates.


And I can agree with you Amandalouise-, kids i knew back in my youth, their parents divorced and they did not seem to have struggle within themselves as I did,
- My parents relationship is very long if i went into detail, very unstable and chaotic, some times people get lost when I talk about due to how dysfunctional it actually is/was.. even after their offical divorce- they were still together playing their dysfunctional games.... with me or other siblings in the middle of it all... divorce, funny thing is- I knew some kids back in my youth that they had some troubles like I did but the house hold they lived in were like mine, chaotic and the parents still together. divorce was not the issue.

And what I mean for myself- by very conflicting rules and morals from each parent- is not that "at mom's house i had to obey her rules, and at dad's i had to obey his" To be honest, to a degree- we all that go to schooling out side of the home, have to deal with that already- at home there are rules, and at school there are different rules.

No I had two or more, conflicting rules, that i had to obey all the time, under the same roof- Not To Mention Morals of my parents were totally different....

And even then some may say they understand and simplify it... it is not simply a disagreement that many house holds do have - example "should they be allowed to go to their friend's sleep over at age 8 or should they be 12".. no not disagreements like that.

And this for me is simplifying the moral conflict even though I know there was more than just this

One that always promoted to be kind, and be true to yourself, that working was good for you to do, to take out some time to think (dad)--
while the other was- steal, lie, and deceive to get your way and what you want no matter who it hurts as long as your are getting what you want- but if you do it to me- I will get you for it type of mentality (mom)

Thank goodness for a little balance though right

no sadly for me it was much more deep and confusing than just a divorce and having to obey different rules at different houses-- think if i had that I would not be so lost with in myself as I am today. Let alone- Don't let me get into my siblings-- i have enough posts out there of last year of my brother with talking with others, with trying to cope with things that effected me of him.

But that is just my opinion of course, with my life.

((Open Eyes)) thank you; I know you know a lot of me and my situations and all....

I tend to agree with a lot you posted here... A lot of subconscious absorption that takes place as we grow;

The idea with sub selves, it does make sense to me due to I feel this-- with in me.----

Last therapist and pdoc didn't dx me with DID and I explained a little to them of my "different me's" to them; but then again maybe that is why "severe was placed in front of the PTSD for me" who knows- since they did not explain that....

I think also as I have been told with being rather introspective-- this does not scare me, due to I realize I battle with myself---

[Open Eyes]

((beauflow)),

I really think "most" people battle with themselves. And it is "common" to have a sense of "different me's". And if you just spend time trolling the threads here even, there are lots of indications of that.

I think that it is wise of you to "explore" what we have learned about ourselves as human beings. It is very easy to get tangled up on our own challenges, and consider our difficulties interacting with others, knowing how to respond effectively, and gain our personal sense of direction and well being.

By taking the time to learn about "overall human behavior" and how most human beings develope and have "common needs" you will have a much better idea of how "normal" you really are overall as a human being. This link that MudCrab posted is actually a very good link because this man talks about "common human thought patterns". Knowing these various thought patterns this man discusses is good because you can realize that some of the things you think about, even argue with interally are what "most people" do and what you do doesnt mean you are "crazy or different from others".

People have a tendency to "believe" that they are alone, have problems other people don't have and that they should not talk about their personal challenges. Somehow we all think that if we struggle to "understand" ourselves or others, we are "less than" and should be "ashamed" because we should be "well established with good communication skills and a personal strong sense of balance and know what we want to be in life and also know how to pursue what we want to be. But the truth is, we don't always truely know what we want to be right away, often we need time to explore and learn for a while, experiment, try different things and we learn and grow "all our lives".

So this is a good step for you beauflow, you are stepping away from your constant inner struggles and learning more about "what we know overall about human behaviors".

Open Eyes

[beauflow]

i do really hope i can learn something from this.

It may sound silly but I am actually doing his home work he asked to be done in the first section...

I hope communications from.with.to others---- does get better-- i feel so misunderstood so many times, and some times i can "see why" other times i don't.

I do appreciate everyone's input on this

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by beauflow

(((Thanks all for the inputs))

Douglas McNeill thanks for the links too

Amandalouise -
I can respect your disagreeing with this idea- (To be honest though, I am not sure if it is of the story of how I stumbled upon it or if the idea of on sub selves is what is disagreed with) either way though-

As the Link that MudCrab posted that is of Peter K. Gerlach, he mentions "a very alien idea to many, even some mental health professionals"
Peter Gerlach does claim to be in the mental health profession himself-

But to be honest, that is the great thing with psychology--- It will be an ever growing field.
Personally I can truly respect docs that mention there is so much to still learn with things of the brain; so they keep learning even if they have their doctorates.


And I can agree with you Amandalouise-, kids i knew back in my youth, their parents divorced and they did not seem to have struggle within themselves as I did,
- My parents relationship is very long if i went into detail, very unstable and chaotic, some times people get lost when I talk about due to how dysfunctional it actually is/was.. even after their offical divorce- they were still together playing their dysfunctional games.... with me or other siblings in the middle of it all... divorce, funny thing is- I knew some kids back in my youth that they had some troubles like I did but the house hold they lived in were like mine, chaotic and the parents still together. divorce was not the issue.

And what I mean for myself- by very conflicting rules and morals from each parent- is not that "at mom's house i had to obey her rules, and at dad's i had to obey his" To be honest, to a degree- we all that go to schooling out side of the home, have to deal with that already- at home there are rules, and at school there are different rules.

No I had two or more, conflicting rules, that i had to obey all the time, under the same roof- Not To Mention Morals of my parents were totally different....

And even then some may say they understand and simplify it... it is not simply a disagreement that many house holds do have - example "should they be allowed to go to their friend's sleep over at age 8 or should they be 12".. no not disagreements like that.

And this for me is simplifying the moral conflict even though I know there was more than just this

One that always promoted to be kind, and be true to yourself, that working was good for you to do, to take out some time to think (dad)--
while the other was- steal, lie, and deceive to get your way and what you want no matter who it hurts as long as your are getting what you want- but if you do it to me- I will get you for it type of mentality (mom)

Thank goodness for a little balance though right

no sadly for me it was much more deep and confusing than just a divorce and having to obey different rules at different houses-- think if i had that I would not be so lost with in myself as I am today. Let alone- Don't let me get into my siblings-- i have enough posts out there of last year of my brother with talking with others, with trying to cope with things that effected me of him.

But that is just my opinion of course, with my life.

((Open Eyes)) thank you; I know you know a lot of me and my situations and all....

I tend to agree with a lot you posted here... A lot of subconscious absorption that takes place as we grow;

The idea with sub selves, it does make sense to me due to I feel this-- with in me.----

Last therapist and pdoc didn't dx me with DID and I explained a little to them of my "different me's" to them; but then again maybe that is why "severe was placed in front of the PTSD for me" who knows- since they did not explain that....

I think also as I have been told with being rather introspective-- this does not scare me, due to I realize I battle with myself---

sorry for not being clear.I was not disagreeing with how you came about the articles/ books you have read on the subject.

by articles I meant that I have read many articles that state pretty much the same thing....that subselves come from when children and adults have conflicting rules / standards, and that those who go through having to adjust to conflicts create alternate selves / alternate identities due to this type of conflicting rules and standards.

I know many many children that have gone through having to adjust to conflicting rules/ situations and adults that have gone through conflicting rules and situations.. none of them have created alternate selves /sub selves/ alternate identities.

those that I do know that do have alternate selves /subselves/ alternate identities have undergone extreme abuse when they were children. it wasnt a conscious choice on their part to create these alternate selves/ subselves/alternate identities.

therefore I dont agree with any articles that place the blame for subselves/alternate idenities/ alternate selves on things like the child having two sets of rules to deal with.

[Open Eyes]

" i feel so misunderstood so many times, and some times i can "see why" other times i don't." quote beauflow

This is actually "a very common challenge for all people" beauflow. We know what we feel, want and consider "important". But that doesn't mean other people have the same "values". And that is really what many of your "inner discussions are about" in your thread.

I have been having discussions with my daughter about this problem too. My daughter just broke away from a "toxic relationship" and she is now going through a challenging mourning process. One of her challenges is trying to understand why her boyfriend didn't love her enough to stop his episodes of being weak and drinking and druging himself into a blackout/passout/ oblivian. She felt if she loved him enough, and taught him how to set goals and engage his life more, that he would grow out of his old addictions and finally see the light and really value her and having a productive life.

I have been trying to help her understand that his problems are not about how much he loves her, instead it revolves around how he feels about himself. And what I had noticed about him is that he needed to feel he was in "control" so much that he did not know how to let go and just "relax". In fact he was so challenged that he could not sit in a movie theater and relax and watch a movie without her constantly rubbing his arm or leg to help him "relax". My guess is that he suffers from some kind of "hyperactive" disorder and has OCD tendencies. I had met his father who showed these symptoms as well, and the family pattern was more about "denial" of these troubled symptoms and not really about "addressing them" properly. (this is a common problem in families)

What my daughter is slowly realizing is that for a long time she was more of a "victim" than she realized and since she has been away from that constant challenge and had time to calm down and feel her own space again, whenever she sees him she begins to experience anxiety and fear and even that he now "hates her". So I had to explain to her that what her years with him were about was she developed a victim mentality that gave her the sense of safety around him, and now that she is no longer "his victim" she doesn't have that "victim safety" she used to have with him. She began to cry and say, "My god, this is like muchhousens, isn't it?" And my reply, sadly, was "yes".

*Sigh*...it was a really difficult conversation to have with her beauflow because what I am seeing is that she is showing some signs of PTSD like symptoms. But the one thing I am so grateful about is that my time here at PC as well as being in therapy has allowed me to understand so much more about "victim mentality" and how so many people are challenged in so many ways.

One of the things I was always very worried about is how my choice to stay with her father who also had some of these problems and was a binge alcoholic could teach her to do the same. My husband did quit drinking, joined AA and he learned how to handle his personal problems and develope healthier ways to "deal with life and let go of that need for control". So he didn't "just" quit drinking, he learned "why" he developed that problem and how to better understand and manage himself as a person.

My daughter thought that because her father did love me and her, he chose to get better. So she thought that her ex could learn to do the same. But what she didn't realize is there is a lot more to it than that. A lot depends upon our personal history and how we each develope our sense of self. It also depends on what kind of people we grow up around and what kind of messages these people send us that can contribute to how each of us feel about ourselves and our capacity to feel we have good coping skills and can communicate well with others.

When I stop by your thead beauflow, much of your inner challenges revolve around trying to help yourself find ways to process all the different ways people around you interact, often disregarding your input or efforts to do your job well. Alot of your inner discussions that you are sharing also revolve around how you are trying to find ways to not have troubling emotional responses to other people who don't respect you or your boundaries. This also includes your boyfriend's family who tend to be disrepectful and your own family members who try to manipulate you into absorbing their personal problems.

This thread is a good place to start to help you understand the "sometimes when you don't know why other people misunderstand you".
And the reason for that is that what you now need is a better understanding of "human beings overall".

The other thing that would help you imensely is DBT and CBT therapies.
Now I understand you are doing some "penny pinching" in your life, but you also need to find ways to put yourself as a priority and find ways to "nourish" your mind so that you can finally make more "gains" that will help you build healthier skills so that you can "progress in your life".

The people I have a tendancy to be drawn to here at PC and even in my life, are people who "want to work at life, who want to try, instead of just continueously being satisfied with chanting negetive messages to themselves. And you beauflow stand out to me because you are trying "very hard". What it takes to "truely heal and grow" is always the "strong desire to do the work" and it is "work".

Any good teacher, coach, therapist, professional will tell you that the people that tend to really make it are the people who "want to work at it". In my own experience with teaching children how to ride, it isn't always the child that has a "natural ability" to ride that sticks with it and makes amazing accomplishments, it isn't the child that feels entitled to have it, it is the child that is that little chubby not so athetic girl that is willing to do whatever it takes to do it that makes it. Often it is that lowly barn girl that cleans stalls and works at whatever way she can to get a lesson, a girl that can't afford her own horses, will ride the ones that are unpredictable and even put up with the other girls that belittle her as just a barn girl, that often jumps up with some big time win at some point. I have seen this happen enough that I have come to realize that talent can pop up from some very unusual and unexpected places.

You have been looking in the right places beauflow, however, you now need some more "input" and "information" so you can "finally fix what you are trying to fix".

Open Eyes

[GirlOfManyFaces]

I think everyone has a subself. And sometimes that "self" can turn into a different person. I have a different person in my than some people would say is just a schizophrenic thing. Some people would say its an imaginary friend (enemy) and some people say its a subself

Just my thoughts

[Hatter08]

I've been looking for a way to explain this, I haven't read the article yet but thanks for posting it. I don't feel like its DID, just a different part of me.