[FeelingOpaque]

Someone bought up something similar to this in the Psychotherapy sub-section and it is something that has always bothered me about the way people see mental health issues. There seems to be a trend that in order to overcome our disorders, and the diagnosis attributed to it, we must fight it and eliminate it from our identity, separate us from it. That seems very foreign to me. I have had this feeling of depression for my entire life, as far as I can remember, and didn't realize this apathy, lack of focus, and general anxiety is not something that everyone feels. So when I was seeking a way to change I assumed that I would be able to learn how to cope with emotions that I have no tools to deal with and manage. However there are aspects of my identity, some might call it my depression, that I put a lot of value to my life. My constant analysis, my sometimes productive obsessive tendencies, my sick sense of humor; these are things that are, to an extent, symptoms of depression, but they are also things about my personality that I enjoy and would love to hold on to in more productive ways than I do now. So far the mental health professionals in my area have been adamant about trying to give me medication that will numb these mental processes, as they are meant to do, when all I wanted was some way to direct these emotions and obsessions and be able to channel them into areas of my life that will allow me to improve instead of spiral down. But it became apparent to me that there are many people in the field that want you to change radically, want you to become their perception of 'healthy' instead of teaching you to be healthy regardless of your struggles. My T told me that without drugs NO ONE would be able to help me, he insisted that after the medication and therapy I would be fine and dandy and when I told him the multitude of anecdotal and statistical data that shows how even after medication and therapy people still have to deal with the same issues as before meds and he said there are no tools other than meds and therapy I can give you. When I heard that from him, and the other 'professionals' I contacted, I began to understand that so many T's want to force change without accepting what the client wants to achieve. I don't want to become someone different or better, I know more or less who and what I am, I just want to be able to control the intense negativity I feel.

This may seem rambling, but whatever.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by FeelingOpaque

Someone bought up something similar to this in the Psychotherapy sub-section and it is something that has always bothered me about the way people see mental health issues. There seems to be a trend that in order to overcome our disorders, and the diagnosis attributed to it, we must fight it and eliminate it from our identity, separate us from it. That seems very foreign to me. I have had this feeling of depression for my entire life, as far as I can remember, and didn't realize this apathy, lack of focus, and general anxiety is not something that everyone feels. So when I was seeking a way to change I assumed that I would be able to learn how to cope with emotions that I have no tools to deal with and manage. However there are aspects of my identity, some might call it my depression, that I put a lot of value to my life. My constant analysis, my sometimes productive obsessive tendencies, my sick sense of humor; these are things that are, to an extent, symptoms of depression, but they are also things about my personality that I enjoy and would love to hold on to in more productive ways than I do now. So far the mental health professionals in my area have been adamant about trying to give me medication that will numb these mental processes, as they are meant to do, when all I wanted was some way to direct these emotions and obsessions and be able to channel them into areas of my life that will allow me to improve instead of spiral down. But it became apparent to me that there are many people in the field that want you to change radically, want you to become their perception of 'healthy' instead of teaching you to be healthy regardless of your struggles. My T told me that without drugs NO ONE would be able to help me, he insisted that after the medication and therapy I would be fine and dandy and when I told him the multitude of anecdotal and statistical data that shows how even after medication and therapy people still have to deal with the same issues as before meds and he said there are no tools other than meds and therapy I can give you. When I heard that from him, and the other 'professionals' I contacted, I began to understand that so many T's want to force change without accepting what the client wants to achieve. I don't want to become someone different or better, I know more or less who and what I am, I just want to be able to control the intense negativity I feel.

This may seem rambling, but whatever.

here in NY which is in the USA a diagnosis and a person's identity are two different things....

a medical doctor gives a ...diagnosis...of having a cold. flu, broken bones.....physical ailments...

a mental health treatment provider gives a person the ....diagnosis....of having depression

A person's identity is who or what the person is...male, female, doctor, lawyer, christian, American, Yankee, lesbian, gay, bi,......

a person is not a diagnosis, they can have a diagnosis (have a mental disorder, have a physical problem, have a mental problem)

example

my identity is...

I am a mother
I am a wife
I am a lesbian
I am a treatment provider in the state of NY
I am a woman....

my diagnosis is

PTSD (I have problems with anxiety and other PTSD issues)
Bipolar disorder (I go through phases of depression, mania...)

[venusss]

Have you heard of Icarus Project. I think you might enjoy their philosophy, blogs, publications and forums.

The Icarus Project | Navigating the Space Between Brilliance and Madness

[venusss]

Btw, I agree with lot of what you said here. Part of the reason I stay away from the MH system myself.

[avlady]

That's interesting about feeling less negativiity and not wanting to be someone different or better-i understand you just want to be able to be yourself. The meds are supposed to help us cope with our illness, i am not sure that the t's advice that there are no other tools other than meds and therapy because there are things like yoga and other such things which can be helpful. I feel negativity all day long, deal with sadness, depression to an extreme level, and i think the meds are not even helping, but sometimes i do feel ok, but those days are not many. What i want to achieve is a level of consistancy in how awful i feel and to feel it not so intense, but i am so tired all day long from my meds and sleep alot, it's no good way to live but like you said, they just want to change without accepting what the client wants to achieve. I also still do have to deal with the same issues too as before the meds, but i do have to admit that the meds help when i'm not noticing it because i do feel good until the tiredness kicks in. I also have sleep apnea and have to go through another night of testing for my pressure on my machine, they need to up the pressure level and the doctor said it would help alot. I hope this helps, and i pray you can get what you want from your t and doc they are here to help us, but sometimes we have to find one that suits our true needs.

[Perna]

Medication for depression does not "numb", it either helps lift the depression or it doesn't work. Medication that numbs is probably to help with anxiety feelings and they are not part of one's personality.

I have a wonderful imagination which I enjoy but I use to "use" it in ways that did not help me live well. Worrying about the future, for example; why, since it is the future and no one can know what is going to happen, should I only imagine bad scenarios? Why not practice imagining good or neutral ones? Therapy helped me see how I was using my imagination, sense of humor, honesty, intelligence and other personal traits and I learned how to use them in ways that were helpful for me rather than that got in my way.

You should never give up something you love or enjoy about yourself but you should get to know yourself well so you can identify, truly, what and why you love and enjoy.

[lizardlady]

I believe my identity and my diagnosis are separate. I am a person with depression. I am not depression. I've been through therapy and am on meds. I am still "me". You mention your sense of humor. I have a wicked, somewhat whacked, sense of humor. It didn't go away when I got my depressive symptoms under control.

You mention that your T does not have the same goals for your therapy that you do. Have you tried having a conversation with them about what your gtoals are? Maybe you need to find a T who is willing to have the same goals as you.

Someone mentioned meds "numbing" part of who you are. My meds don't numb me. They give me the opportunity to be who I am without battling the symptoms of depression. Does that make sense?

My meds (at least the anti-depression ones) numb my creativity. I haven't really been able to compose and has caused all kinds of inability to feel things sexually (don't know the best way to say that). And I was too depressed to care when I saw my doctor, but she knows but she still ups the meds. I just don't think that's right.

[FeelingOpaque]

Thanks for the great replies!

@Venus Halley, I actually have but forgot all about it, thanks for reminding me! And how would you suggest to avoid the MH system but still teach yourself to cope with the depression and crazy ups and downs? P.S. Love your blog

@avlady, That sucks that you're medication isn't helping, I hope you can find a way out of the depression!

@Perna, I agree, for some it does help, but for the people I know, and even half the people on this thread, it doesn't. Many people I know feel it makes them to neutral, they don't feel high or lows, they say it's like everyday is the same. Some say they like not being on the meds because at least they feel something, although they wish they could find a good balance between the two extremes that seem to be offered to them.

@I.Am.The.End., why does she keep on upping them? Maybe you should go to a new psychiatrist, that doesn't sound very safe.

[reesecups]

I've been in the mental health system for about 22 years and only the PHP I have been in since March of this year has ever tried to teach skills to identify when your symptoms are getting worse. How to try to work yourself out of depression. For people who hear voices, trying to get them to realize what is real and what is their illness, etc. Of course, they push the meds. But most people in this program are disabled because of their illness. But at least it's not like regular therapy, where I'm only dealing with issues that come up or from the past. I'm actually able to now identify triggers and when I'm slipping again.

Originally Posted by FeelingOpaque

@I.Am.The.End., why does she keep on upping them? Maybe you should go to a new psychiatrist, that doesn't sound very safe.

She keeps upping them because I'm still depressed. And like I said, I was having trouble caring about anything, so since I didn't care what happened, she just kept upping the anti-depressant.

I'm not sure I can go to anyone else…she's actually covered by my insurance and I didn't think there would be ANYONE covered by my insurance.

Hopefully I'll care enough the next time I see her to ask her to take me off of at least one. It's not like they make me less depressed. Actually, they might make me feel more depressed as they're really expensive, take away my libido and dull my ability/desire to write music even more. But most likely she'll just talk me out of it and I'll have to go off of them myself.

[FeelingOpaque]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

here in NY which is in the USA a diagnosis and a person's identity are two different things....

a medical doctor gives a ...diagnosis...of having a cold. flu, broken bones.....physical ailments...

a mental health treatment provider gives a person the ....diagnosis....of having depression

A person's identity is who or what the person is...male, female, doctor, lawyer, christian, American, Yankee, lesbian, gay, bi,......

a person is not a diagnosis, they can have a diagnosis (have a mental disorder, have a physical problem, have a mental problem)

example

my identity is...

I am a mother
I am a wife
I am a lesbian
I am a treatment provider in the state of NY
I am a woman....

my diagnosis is

PTSD (I have problems with anxiety and other PTSD issues)
Bipolar disorder (I go through phases of depression, mania...)

I am also from NY. The differences the physical and mental illness is that regardless of how much treatment you get for a mental illness, you're perspective on yourself and your life won't be like it was before, it changes parts of you and the way you behave. Getting over a flu doesn't change who you are. Of course I am not arguing that we should walk around saying "I'm a depressed person, feel my wrath", but I also think it's unfair to pretend like mental illness is comparable to physical disorder. We know so little of the brain, so to come to such claims is scientifically absurd.

[Open Eyes]

FeelingOpaque,

I always like to consider someone's age when I think about a diagnosis, especially when it comes to depression and self esteem challenges. There can be so many contributing factors for "depression" when it comes to teenagers and those in their 20's. It's not unusual for someone in their teens to have anxiety issues and question their worthiness in different ways.

What is one's family situation, relationship with parents, interests that include some forms of exercising the body as well as developing the "physical connection between body and mind" in increasing increments where the person who is "growing" and believe me "you are still growing", can have some way of filling that "whole body natural desire to utilize years in physical and mental evolution where we are designed to be a very "physically active" species.

It "is" important to not just look at self, but to consider humanity as a whole and how we have evolved the way we have for our survival. It is also important to consider your own hormonal levels because that can also have a lot to do with how you feel overall as well.

I see constantly that there are so many your age that seem to think they need to have some grand life plan, know who they are, what they are going to be in life, and rarely does someone that age have enough "life experience" to really know the answer to those questions.

OE

I am not any of my diagnoses, not really.

That said, if I did not experience and perceive the world and my life the way I do and have BECAUSE of the symptoms I present, I would be a completely different person.

So while I am not bipolar or autism [oh my god an autie said they are not defined by the SPECTRUM!!!] or OCD...

My experiences, memories, challenges, successes are highly influenced by the symptoms listed under those diagnoses [the ones that I routinely endure].

However, one would not be able to look at any part of the DSM [any version] or ICD [again, any version] and understand who I am or what about me is so awesome and unique [or, well, however any given person perceives me].

We are not our childhood, we are not our house, we are not our money [or lack there of]. We are not our skin color, our height, any part of our environment. We are not our glasses, our low or high blood sugar, the body parts we do or do not have.

Still all of these things can profoundly affect who we are by way of related experiences, for better or for worse.

We do have a say in exactly how we are affected by them, though.

Originally Posted by FeelingOpaque

I am also from NY. The differences the physical and mental illness is that regardless of how much treatment you get for a mental illness, you're perspective on yourself and your life won't be like it was before, it changes parts of you and the way you behave. Getting over a flu doesn't change who you are. Of course I am not arguing that we should walk around saying "I'm a depressed person, feel my wrath", but I also think it's unfair to pretend like mental illness is comparable to physical disorder. We know so little of the brain, so to come to such claims is scientifically absurd.

I think it is inappropriate to compare depression to the flu.

Depression is a chronic illness, the flu is temporary.
Something like diabetes, kidney dysfunction, severe allergies, epilepsy etc would be a more appropriate comparison.

Having a chronic illness or health complication, mental or physical does change how you perceive yourself.

I imagine that you might possibly have little to no experience with serious chronic physical conditions. It is much the same as having a mental illness: you feel you are limited by your condition, you get constant criticism, you continually look for treatments that will work long term, you deal with crap resulting from the condition pretty much every day.

Constant maintenance, frustration, understanding of limitations, eschewing others' impression of what your limits SHOULD be [as opposed to what they are]...

It's very similar.

I would encourage you to talk to any individual who has personal experience with any one of the following:
diabetes, cancer, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, moderate to severe asthma, epilepsy, immune system disorders/severe allergies

[I have the last three as well as MI issues- I speak from experience and am qualified to make this comparison. I also have many friends who experience these issues as well.]

I think it is easy to see the differences because sometimes it feels like our situation is so damn hard that no one can possibly relate.

There are more similarities between the differing situations than one might think.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by JosieTheGirl

I think it is inappropriate to compare depression to the flu.

Depression is a chronic illness, the flu is temporary.
Something like diabetes, kidney dysfunction, severe allergies, epilepsy etc would be a more appropriate comparison.

Having a chronic illness or health complication, mental or physical does change how you perceive yourself.

I imagine that you might possibly have little to no experience with serious chronic physical conditions. It is much the same as having a mental illness: you feel you are limited by your condition, you get constant criticism, you continually look for treatments that will work long term, you deal with crap resulting from the condition pretty much every day.

Constant maintenance, frustration, understanding of limitations, eschewing others' impression of what your limits SHOULD be [as opposed to what they are]...

It's very similar.

I would encourage you to talk to any individual who has personal experience with any one of the following:
diabetes, cancer, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, moderate to severe asthma, epilepsy, immune system disorders/severe allergies

[I have the last three as well as MI issues- I speak from experience and am qualified to make this comparison. I also have many friends who experience these issues as well.]

I think it is easy to see the differences because sometimes it feels like our situation is so damn hard that no one can possibly relate.

There are more similarities between the differing situations than one might think.

I was not .....comparing....any mental illnesses to having the flu....

if you reread my post you will see that I was using them as .......examples of what a diagnosis is vs what is an Identity, which of course is the subject line question of ....are diagnosis and identity separate....

to put it in simplier and easier to understand terms....

I was saying ...

depression, is a mental health Diagnosis here in NY
the Flu is a physical health Diagnosis here in NY
I am a mom, lesbian, treatment provider, woman is my identity.

I was not comparing depression to the flu.

Originally Posted by amandalouise

I was not .....comparing....any mental illnesses to having the flu....

if you reread my post you will see that I was using them as .......examples of what a diagnosis is vs what is an Identity, which of course is the subject line question of ....are diagnosis and identity separate....

If you reread my post you'll note that I was responding to the person I quoted.
Perhaps you meant to quote/respond that individual?

[venusss]

@Venus Halley, I actually have but forgot all about it, thanks for reminding me! And how would you suggest to avoid the MH system but still teach yourself to cope with the depression and crazy ups and downs? P.S. Love your blog

Thanks. I mostly just read books and blogs (as BP person, I love Tom Wootton... but Psychology Today has good blogs too that are out of the mainstream) and try to apply what works for me.

I am big on spirituality, nature....

I am fortunate enough to have few insightful friends that get me and are able to talk me out of the bad ****.

I used herbs and bach essences for some moderate control of symptoms.

Absolutely, I believe so. I don't judge someone based on if they have a mental illness or not, I judge someone based on their personality. And most of the time, even through mental illness, it's fairly easy to see someone's true personality.

Having a mental illness does not make one a flawed person; it is simply a flaw that that person has to deal with.

[venusss]

Originally Posted by GhostofLavender

Absolutely, I believe so. I don't judge someone based on if they have a mental illness or not, I judge someone based on their personality. And most of the time, even through mental illness, it's fairly easy to see someone's true personality.

Having a mental illness does not make one a flawed person; it is simply a flaw that that person has to deal with.

That is however not what OP is saying.

They rather feel that their depressive disposition may just well be their personality and not neceserily a *flaw* and they do not seek to be "healthy" in other person's definition.

(I hope I got the main feeling right).

So if I my baseline is somewhat lower, am I a pessimist, a grumpy cat.... or "ill"? Is my cynicism symptom of "illness" or is it me? Maybe some people are naturally depressive and they can learn to deal with it well and thrive. They still are somewhat less sunshiny then the ideal, but they don't use it agains themselves and can sail through or even use if for their good... (I hyperfocus. Some would call it symptom of my illness cause it kinda affects my social life... but my friend's lack of hyperfocus and social life gotten in a way of getting degree on first attempt. Genuises tent to obsesses and isolate.... but is it bad, or their way?). What about accepting ourselves for what we are and taming it, instead of completelly *killing* the quirks?

Tom Wootton compared bipolar to racing car. In order not to get hurt, you can either park in in your garage and never ever drive it... or learn how to drive it. I prefer to learn to drive my disorders, for good and bad.

The real test should be function versus dysfunction.

In theory, that is what it is, in reality the demarcation seems to be more between "comfortable for other people" versus "uncomfortable for other people".

Not always, and not explicitly, but when we look at people thinking they may have asperger's, add, bipolar, anxiety... ANYTHING, frankly- but these individuals actually do not experience difficulties with dysfunction in the day-to-day it is important to really figure out what the point of diagnosis truly is.

DX, in theory, assists with getting treatment and support that is appropriate for specific symptoms experienced. The diagnostic code assists with the financial aspect of this through insurance and assistance programs, etc.

But when people are not actually experiencing dysfunction and merely associate "quirks" and unique behavioral phenomena with a clinical diagnosis- what is the actual point of labeling someone?

You aren't treating something if it isn't causing dysfunction.

I mean, I'm a bit on a tangent here, but a bit not.

Does dark humour, extensive analysis, and highly productive [though maybe at times extremely enthusiastic] tendencies really fit the bill for dysfunction?

...I don't actually think so.
But if a doctor is trying to treat just simple overanalysis [which may introduce a sense of the awkward but can actually be highly beneficial], it's really about making everyone comfortable, including the treating professional at times.

So really, if you aren't having dysfunction, there is nothing to treat as I said.

If you are, the treatment should be geared toward the dysfunction experienced and how that limits an individual... not toward altering what makes a person unique, even if they aren't everyones "cup of tea".

Who cares if you are on either end of the bell curve if you can still be productive and happy.

[note- being constantly unhappy is actually a sign of dysfunction, being sarcstic and dark are not]

[venusss]

As for ADHD though... I really struggled until middle school with teachers who couldn't stand I wasn't religiously watching their lips and hated I drew in my notebooks.

As I was uncomfortable for them.

On HS... most of the teachers did not care. Some still ratted on me... on Uni? NOBODY cared. I need a specific environment, so probably couldn't handle ALL jobs, but I don't struggle if I am reasonably comfortable.

So is it quirk or illness? My family opted to pay me prive HS so I am in some freer and less dogmatic environment. On regular one... my "ADHD" or whatever other issues I have... might be the end of my academic career.

Also... was Kafka ill or existentialist? Sure, today he'd be dragged to shrink by one of his lovers and may end up talking his childhood and inner child on the couch and be heavily medicated (one pill for obsessing with the ones living in Castle, one for fear of turning into giant cockroach, some APs for paranoia he found hard to Process, another one for being uhappy and loss in America). How about those who were not really happy, but created something greater then themselves?

oh sorry OP for the threadjacking.

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

As for ADHD though... I really struggled until middle school with teachers who couldn't stand I wasn't religiously watching their lips and hated I drew in my notebooks.

I'm not following you.

Also... was Kafka ill or existentialist? Sure, today he'd be dragged to shrink by one of his lovers and may end up talking his childhood and inner child on the couch and be heavily medicated (one pill for obsessing with the ones living in Castle, one for fear of turning into giant cockroach, some APs for paranoia he found hard to Process, another one for being uhappy and loss in America). How about those who were not really happy, but created something greater then themselves?

I'm not actually sure how any of those things made him dysfunctional in a true sense; there were clear indications of success and function- though atypical.

As well, I used an incorrect term.

I should have used the term content.
Happy is a different concept.

I find it hard to believe that a person can survive being completely miserable every single day of their life with no intervention. That such a person may be accomplished in any way indicates some form of contentedness.

We could go on with philosophy but I kind of feel like whatever I say won't be adequate in terms of function versus dysfunction so I'll withdraw as clearly I'm part of the problem.

Originally Posted by VenusHalley

That is however not what OP is saying.

They rather feel that their depressive disposition may just well be their personality and not neceserily a *flaw* and they do not seek to be "healthy" in other person's definition.

(I hope I got the main feeling right).

So if I my baseline is somewhat lower, am I a pessimist, a grumpy cat.... or "ill"? Is my cynicism symptom of "illness" or is it me? Maybe some people are naturally depressive and they can learn to deal with it well and thrive. They still are somewhat less sunshiny then the ideal, but they don't use it agains themselves and can sail through or even use if for their good... (I hyperfocus. Some would call it symptom of my illness cause it kinda affects my social life... but my friend's lack of hyperfocus and social life gotten in a way of getting degree on first attempt. Genuises tent to obsesses and isolate.... but is it bad, or their way?). What about accepting ourselves for what we are and taming it, instead of completelly *killing* the quirks?

Tom Wootton compared bipolar to racing car. In order not to get hurt, you can either park in in your garage and never ever drive it... or learn how to drive it. I prefer to learn to drive my disorders, for good and bad.

Ah, okay. My apologies. That's understandable, and I could see how it would be easy to feel that way. I was also at one point, under the impression that being depressed was my personality, as a whole. However, I don't necessarily think that it's a bad thing that they are not seeking to be "healthy" in the eyes of everyone else, or by anyone else's standards. It would be good if they would get help for their depression, of course. But not for anyone else, or to be a certain way in the eyes of others. Only if they feel they need it, or really want to.

[FeelingOpaque]

I never said I functioned, nor did I describe the severity of my symptoms. I just named three random things that I felt were by products of my depressive nature. I don't know how it is for other people who functioned normally through life and then was hit with a disorder of the mind that began to cripple their relationships and dampened the things they loved once before. I don't remember a time when my anxiety didn't make me apprehensive and scared of leaving my house every morning because I was afraid of what people would think of me as I walked through the streets, stand in the train, sit in class. My over- analysis, or more accurately my isolation of the world, has dampened all my friendships or possible friendships. I can't concentrate on much for too long and I never had a drive to succeed in anything except for the possibility of disappointing those around me. Irrational, probably, but that was/is my normal. I didn't realize this was dysfunctional until I went to college and realized how excluded I make myself and how I constantly feel uncomfortable and unworthy. So I can't really comment on the experiences of those that had a 'normal' spectrum of emotions, highs and lows, and then had the unfortunate circumstance of being hit by a disorder a way of feeling that is alien to them. But for me there is no other self than the one that was developed and ingrained in me while living through and with the symptoms of depression. So when a 'professional' tells me that in order for me to get 'better' I essentially need to become someone new person and they are unwilling to help me cope with the bad to bring out the good, it baffles me. This is my normal, I just want to learn how to make it less painful.