Imagine

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,
It isn't hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possessions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer,
but I'm not the only one,
I hope someday you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Written by: John Lennon
© Bag productions inc.

Love the music! But I sure can't go along with the words!!

"Imagine there's no heaven" - then what comes after this often difficult life filled with problems? What happens to our soul when this earthen vessel has served it's purpose... nothingness?

"No hell below us" - that's probably very easy for those that do wrong all their lives. What is the need for conscience, kindness, understanding, the lessons we have to learn in life that make us more than just mere robots?

"Imagine all the people living for today..." - ...going about doing as they please regardless of consequences. People living like nomads wandering around without a home or roots.

"Imagine there's no countries" - ...no cultural differences, no beautiful color differences in people's skin, nothing to learn from others that share this world with us.

"Nothing to kill or die for" - no wrong, no right, no passion; indifference.

"No religion too" - no Satan, but no God of love, either. Again, no wrong, no right, no passion... just INDIFFERENCE; the height of apathy, lethargy and unmindfulness.

"Imagine all the people living life in peace..." Peace... or apathy and indifference to each other. In other words, "STAGNATION."

"Imagine no possessions" - no cars to go from one place to the other. No homes; roofs over our heads to keep out the elements, no sofa's or chairs to sit in, no beds to lay our heads when we need to rest, etc., etc., etc.

"And the world will live as one." - It will, but not before evil is vanquished, which means a war to end all wars. There will still be a government, etc. but that's in the future. We are in the now, or at least, we're supposed to be.

To expect no conflict, no differences of opinion, no crises, no downs to counteract the ups is unrealistic and unhealthy. To expect people to continually be supportive, understanding, caring, even tempered is expecting people to be God and even God gets exasperated with us as individuals as well as a whole.

Something else I learned in my extensive years of therapy; sometimes there needs to be a crisis before there is any change or movement in one's life. How many crises do we have to go through before we take ourselves by the boot straps, lift ourselves up, dust off and continue trudging up that hill or mountain till we reach the top? Granted, it's a journey, a process, but standing still is not an option if you ever expect to reach some semblance of "normalcy." That's not to say that we can't take a break now and then, but while we take our break, we need to be thinking of what our next step will be and in which direction other than backwards.

Those of us that are on the move will and do get impatient with those that are stuck simply because we've been where they are. We point the toe holds, perhaps a very narrow and indistinct path and our outstretched hands go ignored. Not all of us are meant to forge roads or crossings or to smooth out the way. Some of us are meant to follow. Some of us fall asleep along the way. What will happen to those if someone doesn't come along and nudge them, sometimes quite strongly, and say "WAKE UP! It's dangerous to stay here for too long!" ?

When I posted "What I've learned...," it was never meant to be a judgment call as it appears some have taken it. It was simply a reminder for those that have forgotten the lessons. May I dare say that there are those that don't even know that a particular lesson needs to be learned? I posted what I have learned because that was a path I took that brought me out of the depths of depression/anxiety. It's one road, not THE road. It worked for me! It could possibly work for you.

Being as life and it's lessons is a journey that isn't finished until we breath our last, I need to remind myself of these lessons over and over. My journey isn't finished. I haven't reached "perfection" and neither has anyone else here... or there... or anywhere!

If what you are doing now isn't working, then take a different road! Change your perception of things! Leave behind your "victim role" and fake your strength until it becomes a reality! All of us that suffer from mental illness have stores of strength that we are not aware of or that we refuse to acknowledge! From personal experience I'm all too familiar with the thought "I'm sick of being strong. I want someone to do it for me for a while." No one can do it for you, but you can sure reach out for that extended hand that offers "help and support." But you have to meet that help half-way. You need to put out some of the effort! It won't get done for you. Even if someone comes along and physically picks you up and sets you in a standing position, you have to lock your knees so that they don't bend under you and you wind up sitting in the mire again!



<font color=blue>"Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt" --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

You make an excellent point. There are many different roads to follow. In a self help forum we tell people of the road we have followed and we watch the path they have taken because maybe they have a new idea that can help us on our path. But we must choose our own path. For every response to the lines in the song Imagine that you made I have a totally different take on what it means to me. That is the joy of poetry, one cannot say what it truely means, Not even the creator of the poem. Once it is out there it takes new meaning for each individual who reads it. Poetry is very much alive. The same is true for the process of healing. And that is what it is, a process. Each place a person is at is a part of the process. Sometimes being stuck in the bottomless pit of despair IS an important part of the process that person is going through. Just because it is dark and painful does not mean that it isn't beneficial TO THE PROCESS. It may not seem beneficial to me or to you but to that person it is an important place to be, and only the process knows how long it will be that way. That is why it is important to remember that as a self-help group we need to excercise great patience and great restraint when it comes to responding to someone who is fighting her own demons. You never no where in the process she is or where you will soon find yourself. The process is as alive as poetry.
Carrie

<font color=green>But the implicit and usually unconscious bargain we make with ourselves is that, yes, we want to be healed, we want to be made whole, we're willing to go some distance, but we're not willing to question the fundamental assumptions upon which our way of life has been built, both personally and societally.--Bill Plotkin, Soulcraft

"Perception" also has much to do with the process, don't you think? Would it surprise you if I said that I find some comonality with this person and she with me? We don't agree with what it is, but it certainly is there!

There also comes a time when in your own life you have to draw boundaries or limits. "Above all; to thine own self be true" as I used to sign myself. In being "true" to myself it came time to say something, perhaps not very nicely, because I have also thought of taking my own life. In retrospect, nothing is worth that! When I had those thoughts, I was in a "victim role/mode." If you want to say that my button got pushed, so be it. For me it was an action of calling attention to the superficiality of the reason for taking her life, given the reason for other's wishes of self-anialation here on this board.

It certainly seems that someone was waiting for such an extreme to take place before they did something about the chat room. Throw a fit, get a reward... but only if you are a victim. Give me a break!

Perhaps you "perceive" having patience until it's threadbare as a virtue. I don't. I see it as "enabling." If you want to effect a change in your life, then at the very least ACCEPT what others say long enough to turn it over in your mind and see if it will work or ask for an explanation! Don't turn it down "just because" or tell that person for whom those things have worked that it's "wrong!"

Like I said in my PM to you, I'm not upset with you as a person. Not at all! Please take this how it was meant; a difference in opinion and something that has proven itself to me to be true.



<font color=blue>"Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt" --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

I see this very much the way you do, and add everyone is an individual, having different needs, poetry is interpreted as anyone wants to, like a painting, people can view one same picture in different ways, and they are free to do so.
What we get from music, poetry, paintings and other works of art, including nature's art is individual, personal, we can store all of this in our mind's eye.
Healing, processing, grieving, etc. need no certain schedule, it is the final outcome that matters most

DE

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON

Tomi,

You speak of passing along what you have learned. I will pass along something that I have learned. I have spent a lot of time teaching, and people say that I am quite good at it. One thing I know to be true is that a lesson will never be learned unless it is presented with respect for the person I am trying to teach. And I have had plenty of students who required the same thing to be repeated over and over again...but if I lose patience with the person and say or do something disrespectful, I know that regardless of the flaws of the other person, *I* was wrong, and I owe them an apology.

And I have also learned that it is not enabling to stay with someone who is stuck in a bad place. When I was in my own bad place, there were plenty of people who thought I had been sick long enough, and it was time for me to "grow up" and "get over it". These people refused to see my struggle, how hard I was fighting just to keep from sinking completely. If it wasn't for the other people, the ones who stayed with me, who accepted that my struggle sometimes involved one step forward and two steps back, who believed that I was in pain even when they couldn't understand it, who offered a gentle guiding hand instead of criticism...if it wasn't for them, I might not be here today. And if they are enablers, then I thank God for enablers, because they saved my life.

Well, those are some things that I've learned.

mj

I love John Lennon's "Imagine" and the meaning and inspiration that we receive from it. It's one of my most favorite songs ever. Thank you!!!

I'm going to "reply" to myself because this isn't meant for anyone in particular but more to everyone in general.

You all can go ahead and argue, can extole your virtues, etc., but I remain firm in my beliefs. No one can change my mind except experience. Also, remember that I don't have any training in teaching or psychology so don't expect me to act as if I do. I do What I can However I can.

It seems everyone is blaming me for having been unfeeling and rude to Sky. Maybe I was but I surely wasn't the only one that shared the same feelings. And I certainly wasn't the rudest! That's okay. I'll take on responsibility for her words! I'm taking the blame for them already so I don't mind.

What all of you are unaware of is that Sky and I have communicated. There is movement there. We're not bossom buddies. But we've communicated. Darkeyes, I'm sure you remember when you and I were at odds with each other. We were both able to get past that.

Something else you may or may not be aware of; at least the incessant moaning and whining has stopped and there is another conversation going which can lead to changes in everyone. It's up to each individual what they make of it for themselves. Some will choose to crawl back into their hole but hopefully, some will recognize a spark of "fighting back" or "rebellion," whatever you want to call it, and use it as a catalyst to move forward... or at least roll over on the other cheek.

Some of you may be under the false assumption that I'm new at this. I'm not. I became aware of my problems over 20 years ago although I have lived with depression all of my life. I know that I am not so unique that I'm the only one that has ever benefited from a strong nudge to "do something!" There are certainly enough "stubborn, obstinant" people on this board. Sometimes that's the only way you can get us to move. All the strength and energy they are using to dig themselves in can be used to dig themselves out. Gentleness and sweet compassion won't achieve that with us.

Maybe in a few days or weeks some of you will realize that right now, this very minute, you are still operating from the "me" possition. Hopefully, some of you will remove your blinders and accept that you aren't the only one that is right or "knows how." And before you go yelling at me that I think I do, stop right there. I don't! I've said it before and I'll say it again; what I have learned through experience is one way out, not "the" way out!

<font color=blue>"Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt" --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL. Some ppl are a figment of their own "imagination!"

<font color=blue> Character is who you are when no one is looking </font color=blue>

*Zenobia holds up both her hands in capitulation* There is nothing that I can say at this point. I think there reaches a moment when one must step back and take stock. I have reached that point. I need to think through my feelings and determine if continuing this conversation takes the well being of the entire communitiy into account. I respectfully request that others take a step back as well.
Sincerely,
Carrie

<font color=green>But the implicit and usually unconscious bargain we make with ourselves is that, yes, we want to be healed, we want to be made whole, we're willing to go some distance, but we're not willing to question the fundamental assumptions upon which our way of life has been built, both personally and societally.--Bill Plotkin, Soulcraft

And once again, she proves herself. You're right, Zen. Time to give it up. Too bad.

<font color=blue>"Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt" --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

The motto where I went to HS was one that I actually took to heart pretty seriously - it was "a higher purpose than the self".

Zen, my problems with Sky had nothing to do with "hating" her or anything like that. It was that in every post she put up, even to people who were clearly struggling, she always made it seem that her own problems were so much more important than the rest of of us.

As we all know here, hurting has no description and the pain can have no boundaries.

I become highly suspicious when one becomes "dramatic" about one's suffering to the exclusion of everything else. No one here, it is obvious, "likes" to be in the pain we are/were in. We can ALL remember how horrible those dark days were. In some ways we all need nurturing - but when every single post is negative, rude and self-serving and always brings the question back to them I have a bit of a hard time understanding if the person in question is actually in pain or simply egotistical and enjoying the attention.

At what point do we stop being a listening ear trying to help and become an easily manipulated audience? Due to our own hearts and suffering, no one here wants to think that someone else may not be of the best motives, but I think we've all been taken for fools.

some of it's magic
some of it's tragic
but i had a good life all the way......
~jimmy buffett

Sky,

Can you explain what you mean? I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt but .....it just isn't happening.

What some people may not know is that I was hurt by your comments to me a bit ago regarding my surgery. You did hurt my feelings.....your words bothered me but the difference is that I chose to let them bother me. I chose to let them go and move on.....I even pm'd you with some suggestions to help you get into chat. I also mentioned to you of how on other boards if there are people who are not getting along to just ignore each other til things blow over.

What is bothering me now are you other recent posts here on the board still with a negative tone to them and while you are not mentioning names....you are calling this person names. That to me is not being fair. I remember the initial contact between you and Tomi and if I am correct it had to do with religion ?.....here is the link...
<A target="_blank" HREF=http://forums.grohol.com/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=generalmh&keyword=generalmh&Number=37018&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&part=>http://forums.grohol.com/showflat.pl?Cat=&Board=generalmh&keyword=generalmh&Number=37018&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&part=</A>

When I read this post....I do see where Tomi apologized to you but you chose to keep it going....sigh ....and even bring it up again 2 months later.

Just had to give my 2 cents worth and my thoughts on this.


Heather

I have never heard this song before, but I like it..

Thank you for sharing it.. (btw I am staying out of everything else.... )
Does anyone know where I might be able to listen to the song??????

<font color=green>
The Toa pours our everthing into life --
It is cornucopie that never runs dry.

It is the deep source of everything--
it is nothing and yet in everything.

Sky, I'm choosing to respond to your PM publicly. I'm sure you and others will see it as yet another attack. I'm sorry for that. I want to post this publicly because I know there are other people here that could benefit from my response. It's not kind. It's not gentle. Although some disagree with me, that's okay. They have their opinions, I have mine.

Now, in response to your extensive PM:
You know, your perception of things is SO skewed! What you really need to do is begin, after all these years, to work on your anger over what happened to you. You are so full of resentments, self-pity and bitterness! You automatically respond in defense with whatever is said to you! That is why you can't find anyone in 3D to help you! You push people away with your attitude!

You think I'm attacking you when I'm NOT. We clash because you sense the same strength in me that you have but refuse to acknowledge. Possibly, you see someone that has pulled themselves out of a hell-hole and the possibility of you doing it is scaring the hell out of you! Once you come to terms with what happened to you, you can use the energy you use being angry for your own good. It can fuel your climb out of that hell-hole you are in. And how do I know? Because I've been where you are! I used to respond to everyone and every situation with defensiveness and anger. Bitterness used to spew out of my mouth with everything I said. And if that didn't get accomplished what I thought I needed, I whined and moaned about my situation trying to find some pity somewhere. No one wanted to be around me!

I am not attacking you.

I am not lying about a relationship we don't have. We have communicated through PM and may I remind you, you PMed me first!

Your life doesn't irritate me, it's your whining and anger that pisses me off... and you wanting to correct what I say. You can't accept that my truth is MY truth.

I hardly answered "every" post you made. On the contrary, I tried to stay away from you.

If I have called you names, it was "childish" because children respond to things they don't like is anger, because they don't have the mental capacity to deal with unpleasantness in any other way.

And give me a break! I'm attacking you because you are "Christian???" Who am I to judge whether you are or not?! I did warn you about posting religious matter because there had been some dissension on the matter. It was nothing more or nothing less than a "head's up," just like I said. Not an attack.

I can't believe that you think I follow you around and "rebuke" everything you say while all the time I'm trying to stay away from you! If I had "just" stated what I felt, you still would have seen it as an attack on you because that's what you expect.

Yes, you have been a victim of circumstances. Yes, you took a very tough break. But the "incident" is OVER. You've had plenty of time to rage at fate, to mourn your deep losses. Yes, you've had a life-long struggle to overcome the devastation. You have every right to be angry at what happened. What you need to do is use the energy your anger produces and use is constructively, not negatively. All the people around you aren't the ones that caused your situation but yet you spew that anger at anyone that comes close to you. You deal with people that could possibly help you as if they were the ones that took your life away from you.

The way you are dealing with your problems isn't working, Sky. It's time to change the way you perceive things. Be open to suggestions, listen to them, think about them and then weigh them in your heart of hearts. You'll be surprised what you find.

<font color=blue>"Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt" --Shakespeare</font color=blue>

Everbody, ENOUGH NOW !!!!!!!!!!!
This thread is closed, it is time to move forward. . . a time for peace.

In giving advice seek to help, not please your friend
SOLON