[magasanguis]

I have a friend who is a year younger than me. Sometimes it seems like more because she lacks the maturity that I have. Especially when we're arguing.

Two years ago, we were on the same level when it came to disagreements. We both enjoyed a healthy dispute once in a while.

I've grown up a lot in two years. I know how to argue effectively and kindly. I'm very empathetic in my statements. I always consider how the other person is going to percieve them. Unfortunately, my friend hasn't matured as much. She cannot fight fair.

We've had two arguments in the past month. Analyzing them, as unbiased as possible, I have made three mistakes (two of which were entertaining those disputes). I can't count hers.

Even when I was looking out for her, she attacked me and my other friends. I was trying to help her with some social issues she had, as were these friends of mine. Yet, as best as I can guess, she felt vulnerable, which is why she launched attacks on me and a few of them.

Yesterday, she took a step too far. She started an argument that eventually led to the topics of personal growth and religion. At which point she passed judgment on my beliefs. Her statements were based on opinion which she tried to argue as fact. One of her common flaws is her inability to determine the difference between knowing, thinking, and feeling. I eventually told her I was done arguing.

Her statements themselves had no effect on me. Her convictions about me were untrue.
The thing that really made me upset was that she had the intention of hurting me.

We can't fight fair anymore. I put much more thought into what I say than she does. Evidence of this is that she does a lot more apologizing than I do. I can't continue to be her friend at this point.

I'm upset that she would want to hurt me. Aside from that, her thoughts about me and my religion are all wrong. I never bring stuff like that up because I have seen her intolerance and her ignorance and her immaturity. We can't keep our relationship superficial enough not to get into it, so I'm going to have to break it off.

She's a sweet person. But I cannot be friends with her.

Feel free to advise. I especially want to know what I'm doing wrong, so constructive criticism is helpful.

[salukigirl]

not trying to be mean, but go back and read how you talk about your friend. wouldnt you be a little on edge if you were treated like that? sounds like youre pretty confident but its crossing the line into cocky. ever think that maybe your friend thinks youre abandoning her for your "maturity"? Hate to say it, but a truly mature person would move past those "flaws" and learn to love them for who they are. Sounds like you think youre too good for your friend. Maybe, instead of pointing out someone else's flaw you should look at your own. A lot of time when people point out the flaws of others it's because they are insecure with their own. And if youre boasting yourself that much it sounds like youre extremely insecure. Ego is a very dangerous thing. Be careful with it.

[sabby]

Hi maga

Let me see if I understand what you are saying here. Is that you feel you have grown in a different direction than your friend has grown? People do that all the time. Where we grow is not always where our friends grow.

Is it possible to continue the friendship but back off of the arguments (discussions) about things that cannot be fairly discussed?

If all you are looking for is a sparring partner (and I don't mean that in a bad way) then maybe your friendship has moved to a different level and you will have to find someone else to spar with that gives you similar input as you give?

Is it also possible that at some point your friend felt hurt by something you may have said? Maybe asking her if that is the case, you may gain some insight as to why she is now reacting differently towards your discussions. For that matter, maybe there is something else going on in her life that is bothering her and it's manifesting in your discussions.

Wishing you and your friend well.


sabby

[magasanguis]

@salukigirl:
I suppose I should have made it more clear how I actually treat her. What I posted is my raw feeling, but I'm constantly parsing it so that it's as inoffensive yet effective for her. It's apparent to me that we have this "age" difference... But I know better than to let her know it. I would never bring it up as "You're just being immature." I don't know anyone who would like to be told that sort of thing... Nevertheless, I keep in mind this difference when I'm talking to her so that I don't end up saying something that could be misconstrued.

And trust me, she has made me aware of all of my flaws. She has defined me, at least in her own mind, and when I try to change for her, simply to show her that I care(d) enough to do so, she not only doesn't pick up on it at all, but CONTINUES to tell me who or what I am. There's irony in the fact that she's telling me I "can't change," while her perception of me seems to be stubborn.

This is one of my issues with her. I don't want to be friends with someone who has such a narrow view of me. I will not ask her to change something as deep as a mindset, but if she wants me as a friend, then that is something that she will have to change. The choice is hers.

@Sabby:
I always thought that we were very similar people... I think we're growing in the same basic direction, just at different rates.

I don't want to argue with her over these deep issues. I never wanted to have the conversation we did in the first place. What happened was, she asked what was on my mind. I said, "Nothing, don't worry about it." She replied, "You know I hate when you don't tell me what's bothering you." So I told her, it was philosophical questions that plauge me from time to time. I never asked for her opinion, but she gave it anyway. "That's stupid. Just say that God did it."

In retrospect, I should have left then and there.

I've felt recently that we should just keep our friendship superficial. She's fun, and we laugh a lot. But apparently this isn't possible. I've tried to control myself and reign myself in, but she desperately wants someone she can talk to about anything with.

You predicted right in saying there are things in her life that affect our discussions. That's something that I personally don't like. She said more than once, "I'm sorry. I was in a bad mood." She's in a bad mood a lot of the time, and she doesn't want me to help because she thinks I'm too judgmental. Instead, she goes to my other friend (who tells her the same things that I do, but she doesn't accept it coming from me). (By the way: said other friend was a kind of mediator in this past fight, and he defended me.)

Apparently she thinks I attacked her. She may have taken offense to something I said, but that's not my fault, because I was stating my opinion. I never attacked her, but she may have taken it that way because my opinion differs from hers.

There's a lot here... Power to you if you actually read it all.

[AlteredState01]

A whole year older than your friend, huh? Are you sure you really want to use this stat as a basis for arguing your point?

Seems kinda silly, or rather, immature, to me.

And apparently, you are taking offence to something she said, when you said something to her that offended her? And if you are so tackful in your speech so as to come across as inoffensive, yet effective for her, then why are you garnering the same response from her?

Sounds like you've changed the rules a bit, not the least of which is thinking you are so much more mature (or superior, possibly, in her mind?). Regardless of whether you leave this fact out, it would still come across LOUD AND CLEAR, just as it does to me.

A whole year...wow

If you just can't do it anymore, then let her go. It's that simple, really. Stop antagonizing each other, and for God's sake, stop trying to control how she feels.

[magasanguis]

@AlteredState01:
I didn't mean for it to sound as if the fact that I'm one year older is what is driving us apart. Like I said, I try to be courteous and empathetic... However, a year is a long time when one person is 14 and the other is 15. It probably isn't the actual length of time between us being born. Rather, I'd assume it's the lack of shared experiences that make us so different.

Perhaps I have changed the rules. But if anything, it makes me LESS biased. Using "I" statements rather than "you" statements. Differentiating between thinking, knowing, and feeling. Skills that come with maturity or rational thought. I've incorporated them into how I deal with people. I don't push these skills on other people, I don't hold them against anyone. I don't, despite what she thinks, have the whole world figured out, but I have enough of a grip on it as I need.

But the reason we can't fight anymore is because we're not playing by the same rules. I don't even know what her rules ARE, or if she has boundaries. I make a point not to attack or insult her. (In fact, I usually can't because I'm too busy defending my standpoint.) I've asked her not to attack me, but she still does a darn good job of it. If she asks for help, I'll give her my advice and tell her she can take it or leave it. I don't tell her what is right or wrong. I don't tell her the way she is or what problems she should work on. I always keep our common goal in mind.

I do wish she'd show me the same courtesy, at least the common courtesy not to degrade another person's religion.

I certainly don't want to control how she feels. It'd be wonderful if we could have a healthy debate without having it turn to what's wrong with me. But since we can't... I'm not putting up with these constant quarrels.

[salukigirl]

i was trying to beat around the bush but since alteredstate just kinda did it for me (lol) ill just come right out and say what ive been thinking. you have way too high of an opinion of yourself and that can only be from 2 things. youre either so insecure that you overblow it to feel better, or you honestly put yourself up on this pedastle. i really wouldnt be suprised if all of your friends acted this way. what is so wrong with acting 15 anyways? who cares? im 20 and i still color. who gives a crap? sounds to me like you think youre too good for her and that is a bit immature. its actually more immature to let things like that bother you. if you were truly as englightened as you think you are then you could get past little differences like that. i seriously think you should sit down and take a hard look at yourself before you go ending a friendship. i know its hard to do but if you honestly take a look in the mirror you might not like what you see.

almost like those really hot girls who constantly talk about how they hate getting attention and hate getting hit on when theyre just talking about themselves. y'know what i mean?

[AlteredState01]

Uh, oopsie

You know, you are probably right insofar as beginning to see a difference between the maturity levels between yourself and your friend.

At the stage you are at (age-wise), you are most likely to make leaps and bounds ahead of certains friends. Not everyone matures at the same rate. If you are seeing a difference, then there probably is one. And this is one more difficulty you are going to face, more and more, now.

Of course you will grow out of some friendships - that's normal! (Uh, I just got stuck on the wrong issue in my initial post - my own...)

It is difficult to leave a friendship behind, but unfortunately, sometimes it has to be that way.

The best thing to do then, would be to let her go as gently as possible. The truth works! You are growing/going in another direction, and it is time for you to move on. Then do so. Do not allow her to have false hope of any kind, because she will continue to hold onto this.

I would not get into any deep explanations as to why, because, well, you will just end up in another scrap. Actually, she probably will freak out anyway, but if you can stick to the BASIC facts and try to remain calm and kind, hopefully, you will get out of there fairly unscathed...

It may take awhile for her to understand, or she may never understand, but if you are honest with her about the fact that you are becoming a different person, she will eventually accept it. If you choose to BS her (which I don't believe you want to), both of you will continue to feel guilt and shame about how the friendship ended. The truth works for BOTH of you - it sets you free without lingering feelings of guilt and shame and it helps her to process the reality of what is happening without being bogged down with the feeling of being lied to or manipulated in some way.

I hope everything goes well for you!

A whole year (huh) can actually make a big difference...

[Mouse_]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
magasanguis said:

She's a sweet person. But I cannot be friends with her.


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

You know this reminds me of a similar situation I had with a "friend" and your last statement re-her being sweet could really be saying "she makes me sick"as to much of something sweet is prone to do.

[Perna]

It is very challenging to talk with someone who doesn't fight fair and uses blaming and "you" statements instead of "I", etc. I like that challenge though, it helps me develop and mature myself better (I'm 57).

Everyone is growing at different rates than everyone else. There's not much point in trying to match wisdom or maturity levels. Are you never going to talk to a child ever again? Do you not know a much older adult who treats you with respect and as "yourself"? I have an aunt who will be 86 in April and I still remember when she came to visit when I was six and how thrilled I was because she talked to me and treated like she did everyone else, like her and my relationship and communication was special.

The only way you can truly help another person is by being yourself. You sound like you are hurt by your friend's treatment of you but I think the solution lies not in making your friend change but in becoming more sure of yourself. I applaud your learning to use "I" statements and seeing the differences in your conversational behavior and your friend's but what you can "gain" from being friends with her is not over! Were you sure of yourself, you would not need your friend's "confirmation" of you, her noticing and "copying" you. You would not need a third person to be part of your discussions so you could be sure of yourself, that you were actually practicing "correctly" and not making any "mistakes."

If I told you "your mother wears combat boots" you would not care, it could not hurt you much because you do not know me and I do not know you or your mother. Your friend saying it would bother you more though, perhaps, because you know and care about each other. However, knowing the "truth" of whether she wears them or not and how you feel about that truth is the only thing that will make you truly "immune" to that comment, no matter who says it. Currenly, if it were true, you'd probably feel a bit defensive, maybe give a "So what!" or maybe a defiant, "I know!" response to make it look like you didn't care or weren't surprised by the "attack" you felt. If a good friend were to say that to me though and my mother wears combat boots, I'd immediately be looking at the hurt I felt and Me, what I felt about my mother wearing combat boots, why that was a trigger for me. I wouldn't be thinking about the other person and what they may or may not have been trying to do in saying such a thing to me. I can't know the other person's motives and feelings unless I ask and they tell me; I'm not the other person.

It sounds to me like your friend is triggering you and you can either move away from the triggers because, face it, they're darn uncomfortable and painful to feel, or you can look at the trigger and dismantle it so it is no longer a trigger.

I think you are more mature and have grown more than your friend but I think you are not certain in your own heart that that is true or permanent or something of that nature. Were I you, I'd decide whether I wanted to get away from those triggers for a bit until I was older and felt a bit more comfortable with myself (maybe) or whether I wanted to tackle some of those hard questions/problems now and make sure that I'd be more comfortable with myself later.

[magasanguis]

Well, after I thought about my last post, I felt like maybe I could fix things. I gave everything a few days. It grew easier to ignore the constant texts I was getting saying, "This is stupid." "Why can't we be friends?" But I knew we both needed a little time to sort things out.

I approached her again. I told her that I felt that our issue was not that we fought, rather, it was that we weren't fighting with the same rules. I was right in my assumption that she really never thought about any rules or boundaries prior to my bringing them up.

So I told her the rules that I fought by. Not just with her. General rules that I keep in mind in any disagreement. Such as:

Never attack anyone outright.
Determine the difference between thoughts, facts, and feelings, and communicate all three.
Always keep a goal in mind.
Take the time to think out a response that isn't easily misconstrued.
Consider the other person's feelings.
Ask questions as opposed to making assumptions.

(And of course, I don't claim that I never break these rules. I'm human. A relatively young one at that.)

I explained how to effectively use these rules. I explained "you" statements versus "I" statements. I told her the techniques I use to differentiate between thinking, knowing, and feeling. All the while, I asked for her input. "Does that make sense?" And it was good to know that she replied, "Yeah, it does."

I'm going to do all I can to level the playing field. Once that's done, I don't think we'll have any more issues. Only time will tell.

Additionally, I'm seeing a lot of criticism about my security that I'd like to further discuss. That's an issue that a few of my friends have with me, and I think most of these issues come from people not knowing my real feelings or intentions.

Here's one case. A friend of mine has always been very honest with me. So I asked him once how he felt about my musical ability. He wasn't keen on answering. He said he hated when people fished for compliments like that. Meanwhile, I was truly seeking an honest, unbiased opinion, since my own opinion and those of my parents aren't very good gauges of the truth. When I told him this, he admitted that was true and gave me an honest answer.

Now this friend that I started the topic about... She claimed that I think I have the whole world figured out, but I really don't. Of course, I'm quite aware that I don't have the whole world figured out. But I do have as much knowledge as I find necessary, and if I encounter a situation where I don't, then I learn new things promptly. The way I see it, I don't have the whole world figured out, but if I needed to, then it'd be possible for me.

Yes, I'm confident. Self-assured. I don't have the whole world figured out, but I have myself figured out.
The most common argument to that is, "Then why are you asking so many questions?" Indeed, it would seem that I'm looking for external gratification.
Meanwhile, I ask questions because I'm genuinely curious. I know who I am, but I don't take the time every day to think about how the world views me.
It's not like, "Oh my god... You think I have flaws?" It's more like, "Why do you think these are flaws?"

And @salukigirl:
Something my dad told me - "The true test of tolerance is if you can put up with an intolerant person." I definitely get where you're coming from, and it's part of why I've decided to give my friend another fair chance.

[AlteredState01]

Interesting summation, magasanguis, and I applaud your tactics and your decision.

Now, this is way off-topic, but...

I'm bettin' there is a little game-playing going on here...and I believe you are pretending you are much younger than you really are.

I'm sorry if this upsets you, but it is becoming much more obvious now. Something isn't "right" here.

There is no way to prove this, of course. And please remember, this is only MY opinion, no one elses.

[GregBauder]

I'm curious about why you're so judgmental of your friend's
maturity. Could it be your insecurity when she challenges
your philosophical or religious beliefs? No two people are
exactly the same so why do you deny friendship to her when
the world is based on different views, outlooks or rules. It
sounds like you're being a bit selfish and conceited about
deciding whether your friend is worthy of you. You should
remember your Dad's words because there may come a time when you are lonely and vulnerable and lose a valued
friendship. Granted, you recognize there are problems in your friendship but maybe focus a little more on the good in your friend instead of abandoning her because she doesn't
understand your depth of maturity. You say you're 15 - wait till you have a relationship or get married and then see if your ideals about being intimate will go over with the other person. The world is full of flawed, vulnerable people and as a bit of a perfectionist myself I can tell you I have lived to
regret rejecting friendship because what goes around comes around. How would you feel if you met a 16 year old you really liked and she decided you were too immature for her? I hope you remain friends with this girl just as you care for a younger sister or brother for example. But if you
expect people to follow your rules of friendship you are being intolerant. Talk to her in a nice way and help her mature if that is so important to you. There is no perfect
friendship. -Greg

[magasanguis]

@AlteredState...
Do you mean to say you don't believe I'm 15? XD Like you said, your theory can't be easily disproved. It's up to you if you accept my statement, but I'm not lying about my age. I'll be 16 in March, if that clarifies anything...?
I'm curious... What makes you suspicious?

@Greg
Thanks, first of all, for the advice. I must say when it comes to religion, I can be reluctant to discuss that. I don't belong to an organized faith. And while I'm confident in my philosophical views, they are easily criticized by people such as my friend who offer nothing but degradation. It's my belief that religion is personal, and I don't think it'd necessary to declare my views to the world.

I'm aware of my selfishness when it comes to friendships, but I think it's justified. I've never been a people person, and friends were always a luxury for me. I internalize others very well, to the point where if a real friendship is taxing, I don't find it necessary for me to remain in that relationship. I have a few friends who need me far more than I need them. It's a dangerous place to be, but I don't mind helping people. This friend of mine seems to take this relationship for granted... She insults me, making me feel like she doesn't value the friendship at all. So at the end of the day, I was like, "Fine, then. I'm not sticking around for this."

Maybe someone here thinks those are screwy opinions, but it makes sense to me.

But yeah, so long as she's willing to grow and change, then I'll be happy to help her along the way.