[jacq10]

According to my Personality Prof, Mindfulness is the opposite of experiential avoidance.

For those of you that aren't familiar with Experiential avoidance, it is defined as a psychological process whereby a person is unable or unwilling to tolerate particular private experiences such as memories, feelings, and thoughts.

So hypothetically speaking, if you are practicing mindfulness, you are trying to counteract this avoidance.

My question then is... can you avoid things while being mindful?

I'm taking a Mindfulness course right now, and for the most part, we're focusing on neutral stimuli as a means to hold our attention - i.e., breathing, body scans, etc. The counsellor who is running this group sometimes says that if we feel comfortable, we can focus on something that it meaningful to us. Now that could be a relationship, or an event... and it can be either positive or negative.

Also, in mindfulness, you're not suppose to let the "story build up" as you are supposed to simply be observing it without judgment.

So when I go to try and focus on something, I can't help but let the story unfold, and more times then not, it only makes things worse because I get into thinking about things again.

That being said, am I not then still experientially avoiding something while being Mindful? And if I can't even try and "work on" these problems through mindfulness, how can I possibly try and overcome them?

[Jazz91]

well when you think about what ever you do you are using Experiential avoidance so you cant avoid things without being mindful as whatever you are doing you are thinking about

[pachyderm]

In mindfulness as I visualize it, you do not avoid whatever comes to your mind. You can continue to focus on thoughts as they come to you, in however long a train of thought that creates. But not everything comes up at any given time, so maybe you are avoiding things that are too scary. Anyway, it seems to be a way to get into things in a non-judgemental way -- at least that is the intention.

[Perna]

I think you have to keep bringing your thoughts back to you breathing, to "current" things when you're being mindful, especially if your head is doing a number on you :-) So, when you wander off and follow your story, I don't think you're being mindful at all, you're thinking about "something else" besides what's immediately in front of you, now.

I got into a long discussion with a therapist about that. I think I'm like you? If you imagine you are watching an assembly line, does the line move or do you :-) If you are moving along the line, "following the story" then you are not "letting go" of what comes in front of you and just moving "your eyes" on to the next item in front of you, letting the line do the work. The story is supposed to move, "you" are not. Don't know if that helps you any, that's the way I picture it.

[(JD)]

Yes, you can "avoid" while being mindful. Being mindful means paying full attention to the here and now. Memories do not fit into this scenario. In fact, using mindfulness is a great way to not allow the bad memories from taking over your thinking and thus trapping you in the past.

[jacq10]

Oh boy, this sure does seem complicated! you'd think after practicing mindfulness for about 3 months now, I'd know a little bit more about it!

I like your analogy Perna... an assembly line. Another one that I often use is like picturing slides on a movie screen. One comes, you observe it, and then it leaves and another one shows up!

Only my problems is I think i'm already thinking too much about what was on the previous slide, that i can't focus on the one in front of me, and i just keep falling further behind.

If only we could just "observe" things without getting all emotionally involved all the time!

[jacq10]

Sky - thats my point exactly!

"Memories do not fit into this scenario."

Thats what i'm trying to say! according to this def. of experiential avoidance... it includes memories. And if mindfulness is the opposite of experiential avoidance, then wouldn't that mean trying to be mindful of those memories? And in doing so, you can't help but feel the emotions attached to them... but then that completely goes against being mindful!

[(JD)]

No, memories do not fit in.

Being mindful is of what you are doing right now, in the here and now. Right now I am replying to your last post. I am typing, making typos, correcting typos, laughing at myself for making typos, and hoping I can help you figure this out. I feel good that I can reply, I am tired from my trip but wanting to respond to your posting.

[jacq10]

I like how you put that... muuuuch easier!

But what if you're trying to be mindful of the past? I guess whats where I get lost. Often times the group leader will ask us to reflect on something or someone... and thats where i get lost. Most of the time I just disregard those images and stick with the breath.

I'm glad that you responded to my post. Thank you

[(JD)]

I don't understand what is meant by "mindful" of the past. If someone is asking you to "reflect on a memory" they are no longer being mindful nor teaching mindfulness. The only way we use the past is to help us avoid pitfalls during mindfulness. If we know from the past that we have a tendency to stray towards a particular thought during mindfulness, then that knowledge of the past helps us to "thought stop" by recognizing the pitfall, and thus proceeding with mindfulness.

Thinking is the enemy of mindfulness.

[jacq10]

Hmm, sorry I guess I'm not being very clear.

It's not that she's asking us to be mindful of the past perse, but we're to reflect on an event/situation/interaction.

So for example, I'm currently still trying to work through a relationship that I had, so sometimes during class I will try and work on "overcoming" it (because I tend to constantly reminisce over it). So I'm suppose to simply observe the feelings that come with this person, so then I can try and see what comes with them, and so then (after mindfulness) I'll be able to try and not get myself upset over them.

Picture the movie screen analogy. I can visualize this person (for example), and see, ok this person elicits x y and z from me - but I don't actually FEEL x y and z.. i just acknowledge them without judgment.

Does that help at all?

[(JD)]

Anytime you venture out of the present, whether into a past thought or image, or project into a future wish or thought, then you are no longer practicing mindfulness.

Changing a perspective about a past incident, especially if it causes you distress, is a good thing, but it is not a part of mindfulness.

[jacq10]

So what am I practicing then? Do I need to correct the group leader? lol... now THAT would be funny

[(JD)]

Are you sure he isn't trying to draw out the experiential aspect of reviewing perspectives of past events or something?

[nowheretorun]

i dont know much jacq.. is that a form of imagery meditation the instructor has you doing? being mindful of the image and its associated feelings?

one could intimize with the image and resolve past or present issues that way couldnt they?

[(JD)]

For mindfulness, say, in the movie theater (though isn't that the opposite as to why we go to the movies, to escape the present?) we can realize we are sitting there, acknowledge that the movie is eliciting feelings, but as soon as we begin to THINK about those feelings and why or where they come from, then we are no longer being mindful.

Does that help?

[jacq10]

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_Sky said:

Are you sure he isn't trying to draw out the experiential aspect of reviewing perspectives of past events or something?

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Pretty sure... she's pretty set on sticking with Mindfulness

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though isn't that the opposite as to why we go to the movies, to escape the present?

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I didn't actually mean going to the movies, just the act of seeing images on a blank screen in front of you.

But I see what you're saying...

[jacq10]

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nowheretorun said:
i dont know much jacq.. is that a form of imagery meditation the instructor has you doing? being mindful of the image and its associated feelings?

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Actually we have done some imagery meditation. One in particular that we did was called Love and Healing (or something to that effect) and we were suppose to imagine projecting "loving/safe/healing things" onto yourself, a person you care about, a stranger, and the world as a whole.

I actually really liked that one...

[pachyderm]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
Anytime you venture out of the present, whether into a past thought or image, or project into a future wish or thought, then you are no longer practicing mindfulness.

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What if, in the course of being "mindful" one has a memory? Is one then to ignore or suppress it?

[nowheretorun]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
_Sky said:
For mindfulness, say, in the movie theater (though isn't that the opposite as to why we go to the movies, to escape the present?) we can realize we are sitting there, acknowledge that the movie is eliciting feelings, but as soon as we begin to THINK about those feelings and why or where they come from, then we are no longer being mindful.

Does that help?

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_Sky? is that where the mindfulness (attention/focus) of one 'object' ends and begins again (attention/focus) on a 'new' object...

like a continuing stream of 'mindfulness' could occur continuously if well trained?

just wondered what your ideas are about that?

EDIT TO ADD: I hope it is okay i asked Sky this question Jacq? I am interested in this topic. Thank You.

[jacq10]

lol nowhere of course its ok that you asked Sky! I clearly don't have all the answers or I wouldn't have posted in the first place!

I emailed my prof about this, and this is how she explained it:

Mindfulness is practicing the ability to be aware (and mindful) of our experiences, our thoughts, our emotions without judgment. You are correct that when practicing
mindfulness your goal is to simply observe without judgment - however, you are not avoiding the thought or experience, just not engaging in the usual thought patterns that
surround it. Experiential avoidance is the inability to tolerate particular thoughts and feelings and the attempt to avoid the experience of them. Those who are experiential
avoiders may not be able tolerate "tuning in" to the present or would find the process uncomfortable - even when not fully engaging in the thought. I think it's the difference
between looking at something and being observant and thoughtful about something that makes you uncomfortable and running the opposite direction when you encounter something
uncomfortable

[(JD)]

Keeping focus on the here and now is why mindfulness is a skill that has to be cultivated. Pushing the thoughts out and maintaining focus on what you are doing right now is key to good mindfulness.

One can share or send energy to another person, in the here and now, and be mindful. Carrying on a conversation with someone can occur also, as long as you don't allow your mind to drift while they are talking, or that you don't go reminiscing and following your thoughts to what used to be, or visualizing into the future. Keeping focus that you are "two individuals having a great conversation over coffee on a cool sunny day" for example, is what counts.

[nowheretorun]

i really like this _Sky : )

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Keeping focus on the here and now is why mindfulness is a skill that has to be cultivated. Pushing the thoughts out and maintaining focus on what you are doing right now is key to good mindfulness.

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i'm not certain of all the names of them but there is a practice i'm aware of in which the person maintains a steady stream of mindfulness as he/she goes about the ordinary tasks of each day.... possibly focusing on a certain image or thought/energy wave which he/she believes is very good in essences and hopes to carry that thought energy within their person and place at all places and times...

i enjoy such whims! and still, some inner nature of mine 'accepts' the idea for its wholesomeness and good spiritedness...

i do enjoy a healthy meditation immensely, personally.

i think ive read that you do the same. that is great _Sky!