[Daveumansky]

Hi all,

I apologize in advance for the length of this post, and also if this is not the correct forum. It was not clear what part of the board I should post this in.

For the past few years I have been stalked -- if that is the correct word-- by an individual. I suppose the word for him is "paranoid," but I am not a doctor so I cannot say so for sure myself. It has been an occasional problem, but recently his stalking has escalated and has gotten me worried. The situation has been roughly like this:

1. A few years ago I met this person in a professional context and, in the course of that, did him a huge favor. He was extremely grateful and several times said that I had "saved his life." That is an exaggeration, but there is no question it was a big thing for him.

2. In 2000 something I did insulted him. Exactly what I don't know, as he never told me. I found out he was upset when he began writing nasty letters to third parties accusing me of "denigrating" him. The letters got worse and worse, more and more delusional --accusing me of plotting against him and "defaming" him, and being complicit in "crimes." This was back in 2000. I must emphasize that there was no truth to any of this whatsoever. I had never "denigrated" him, had no reason to do so, and had no idea what he is talking about and still don't.

3. Since then he has engaged in a sporadic letter writing campaign against me and some professional associates of mine, accusing me of bigger and bigger crimes and at one point comparing me to a "kapo in a concentration camp" (something that I, as a relative of dozens of Holocaust victims, would find particularly nauseating in anyone not so obviously sick). He accused my boss of taking a "$3 million payoff." This is really sick stuff. Since his letters are obviously crazy and delusional, they have not done me or anyone any real harm, or at least none that I know of. At the advice of a psychologist with whom I discussed this several years ago, I ignored his attacks. I was told that if I just ignored him, he would latch onto another obsession and go away.

4. My name has appeared publicly recently, and he has started again writing nasty letters about me and some of my associates (to my employer and professional groups, among others). What concerns me is not that, but that he has escalated.

He had never contacted me directly. The other day he left a threatening message on my voicemail. It was threatening in the sense of saying that "my reputation is ruined," and that I am "dead meat" (professionally--but I still don't like that word) and threatening to "sue me for defamation." All these, you will note, are things he has done against me, and not vice versa.

Obviously I would like this guy to go away, and at the very least I don't want his "hate campaign" to escalate any further, or for him to make good on his threat and force me to waste money defending against a crazy "defamation suit." (I doubt he'd find a lawyer willing to take a case based on delusions, but I can see him going pro se).

My question is this. Should I continue to ignore this person, or should I take action? Confront him in writing or by phone? Lodge a complaint against him for harassment? His phone call might be grounds for such a complaint, but I am not sure it would accomplish anything. My only aim is for him to go away, or at least to not escalate. Since he is nuts I know that ordinary and obvious things (such as a suit or threat of same) are of no value. In fact, I think he would enjoy it, as he has waged other "fights" in the past and enjoys them.

Any thoughts on this appreciated. Thanks.
Dave

[SweetCrusader]

I am in no position to offer advice on legal matters, because I'm not a lawyer or anything. But I would say that you need to get this all documented. Get the letters he is sending and KEEP them in a file. Call the police and lodge a complaint about the phone call. Just tell them you are being harassed and that you would like a record of this phone call just in case the problem escalates. I think they would be in support of that idea. You don't have to take action just yet, but if I were you, I would definitely get prepared. Document EVERYTHING you can on what this guy is doing to you. Be careful not to say anything bad about him, too, because it sounds like he is devious enough to dig up anything he can on you. Remain professional as you can, but keep a record of everything he does. And by all means, if you begin to feel unsafe, contact law enforcement immediately!

Best of luck to you!
Angela

[dexter]

I agree with SweetCrusader highly (and I also am not qualified to give legal advice).

Document everything, save it and date it. It might be good to lodge a complaint against him, even if it doesn't result in anything, just to have on the record, but be sure to lodge a complaint based on evidence so there is no chance of him claiming that you are harrassing him by lodging false complaints.

My gut instinct tells me not to try to contact him to resolve the matter. There is obviously something going in here that is distorted in his mind, and any contact you make will likely be distorted as well... possibly good or possibly bad, but why take the risk? Then again, even if it does "resolve" the issue, this doesn't sound like the kind of guy you want to be "enamoured" of you any more than you want him as an enemy. You want him to forget about you.

You can talk to a lawyer just to see what possibilities you have. A restraining order won't do much good because it is not "proximity" to you that is a problem (that is a good reason to keep documentation though, in case that step is ever necessary). But maybe he will have some other ideas.

Can you talk to a therapist again, maybe that same one, tell them the situation didn't go away, but instead it got worse? They might have some other ideas of how to proceed in a way to cause the least amount of damage to both yourself and to this guy.

[SS8282]

Welcome!

I agree with both SweetCrusader and Dexter. Keep everything (emails, notes, letters to third parties - if you can get your hands on them, save voice mail messages) and document everything - whom you have spoken with about this guy, when, where, who said what, etc. Should he call and you pick up the phone, hang up immediately. This is definately harassment, with or without that phone call.

I am not a doctor either, but from what I read, my first instinct is that the guy might not only have delusions, but also Borderline Personality Disorder. An issue with those who have BPD sometimes have 'relationship' issues. This means that if Person A does something 'nice' to him, then Person A is 'saint'; however, if Person A does something he believes to be 'negative' to him, than Person A is 'very bad' and deserves 'punishment'. He would do just about anything to get his way. I think it's more of a control thing. With that said, I can be totally wrong. I'm going with what you've said and my own knowledge and experiences.

BTW - is he doing the same thing to your friends or even family members as he's doing to you?

I would certainly talk to the police, lawyer, and psychologist about this - as Dexter suggested. Having those people know about your situation is not only proactive, but it may also give you a tiny bit peace of mind. The letters and threats may sound too 'crazy' to be believed, but they are serious.

Good luck. Please becareful and take care of yourself. Also, let us know what happens.

[Daveumansky]

Thanks very much for the replies (so quickly! I am very gratified).
I think there is merit to the suggestions about filing a harassment complaint--going down the police station with a tape of the phone call. But indeed, the letters (all to third parties) are not harassment, legally, and though they are actionable that is not a viable option--unless indeed they actually do harm, and that does not seem very likely. Besides, the man hasn't got a penny to his name.

I guess what I am searching for here is some kind of strategy, based upon what I've described, as to how to cope a person with the kind of sickness that he appears to have (whatever that might be). Alas, the psychologist I consulted on this was a girlfriend with whom I have since split up, so consulting her again is not a viable option!
As for the possible illness that he has, BPD is possible but I think Paranoid Personality Disorder seems to fit him more closely.
I should point out that I am not the only victim of this sicko. He has made grandiose accusations against some of my colleagues, accusing one of taking a $3 million bribe and another of illegal conduct--all absolute fantasies. One emailed me yesterday (these are all employees at a company where I no longer worked) and I get the impression that this sick person has begun escalating there as well. I was not told specifically,. but I get the impression from the emails that phone calls were made there as well. I was told that "corporate security" was notified.

Bottom line is that he is sick, and I could care less about whether the guy recovers. I just want him away, and I am trying to figure out some strategy to get rid of him.

This has been a good discussion so, please, keep the suggestions coming!
Dave

[SweetCrusader]

His letters, since they were sent to third parties, are not harassment, but they are slander. I really highly reccomend keeping them on file if you can. Couldn't hurt! Best to be safe

Angela

[Daveumansky]

Oh, they are definitely slander, and believe me--I have a very thick file. However, as a practical matter a libel suit against this fellow would not resolve the issue. As a matter of fact he has been sued for libel once before! The libel suit was dropped because the person realized it was a waste of time. He is penniless. Also, his letters are so nutty that they are not believed.

[SweetCrusader]

I'm not thinking in terms of suing the guy, though. I'm thinking in terms of covering your own a--. If you can prove he's been doing this to you, you can discredit him in court.

Angela

[SS8282]

Um, how did he get the email address or phone number or whatever of your (former) colleagues?

He may be 'sick', but he is bothering people. Unwanted contact. Put stress on you, and others, wondering what he's going to do next - especially if it's getting worse. Whether he's penniless or not doesn't matter. His behaviour has to be stopped somehow.

Also, if he has many 'victims' already, he might not stop with you and those you know. He might go after other people as well.

I had to deal with someone who was harassing me at where I used to work, though not the same way.

You mentioned "corporate security". Was that your company, or the other company? If not yours, would that be a good idea to do the same?

The most important thing is to take care of yourself - keep safe.

[Daveumansky]

He basically writes letters to everybody he can--the CEO of the company I used to work for (I am now self-employed). Their addresses are easily available. Yes, it is unwanted contact. No question. Annoying, etc. etc. But, again, what does one do? That is the thorny question. No law against writing letters.

So here are the alternatives, as I see them:
1. A defamation suit. I have the grounds. But they are
prohibitively costly to pursue--so I would be victimizing myself financially! Not a practical solution.

2. Filing a harassment complaint. I guess the short answer is yes, if I have grounds. But even if I do, I am not sure this would resolve the problem.

3. Confronting him, by phone or letter. I just don't know. It has never been tried--by me, that is. A tough letter from my (former) company's general counsel did not work.

4. Continuing to do nothing. This has not worked, in the sense that it has not caused him to go away.

This is a toughie! Any thoughts on these alternatives? Have I left anything out?

[(JD)]

Welcome.

By not doing anything keeps the ball in his court, and gives him the control he demands.

IMHO you must do a few things: notify the police. You need to have it documented with them, and a case number for you. This way in case it does become face to face and a problem, they won't just give him a warning, but will already have grounds to remove him from your face! It gives them tools they need to help protect you.

you must notify him in writing that you take his contacts as harassment, stalking, etc and ask that he cease and desist immediately. If he doesn't then you will be forced to take it to a higher level, for your own protection. Make sure you keep copies of the notice, send one to your lawyer. (Or you might want to have your lawyer send the letter on your behalf.. but that'll be at least $100.)

you need to learn to protect yourself. Take some martial arts course, learn to carry a firearm and do so, or at least carry a short bat of alluminum you can buy in the sporting goods/fishing store. A license for a concealed weapon would be nice too. Make sure your home is safe: lighting, alarm, carry your cell phone ON you...

Keep documentation of days, times, events, items etc. It has a lot of weight if you do end up having to take him to court!

[SweetCrusader]

If you send him a letter requesting him to stop, make sure and send it certified. That way there is proof he received it

[Daveumansky]

I guess what I wonder is whether one instance of telephone harassment will get the police interested. Now, I just learned that he has harassed others with phone messages last week, so we may all go together and take action collectively, which will be more effective.

However, I am trying to get into this guy's mind and figure out what will work. I know the legal alternatives, and I also know that filing a harassment complaint is probably necessary. But what is the right way to deal psychologically with an obsessed and paranoid person? What "works" and what "doesn't work"?

Hey, I'm all for writing letters. Be delighted to write one, believe you me. But will it work? Remember that this is--I must repeat and emphasize--NOT a rational person! But he does have traits, symptoms I guess is the best word, and I am trying to figure out how to respond in a way that will make him go away.

[SS8282]

I'm with Sweet there - please talk to the police, and don't confront him yourself. If you want to talk to the guy, one way or another, please have a third party be there with you, or have them do it for you (ie - have the police talk to him).

If a lawyer is too expensive (and I know they are from my own experience), how about legal aid? Also, some lawyers may give a consultation free for the first hour - at least that's what happens in my area.

Can you find another psychologist to talk to him/her about all this?

Remember - document, document, document everything - people, places, dates, time, etc.

Most importantly - keep safe.

[SweetCrusader]

Ok I see where you're going with that. How to deal psychologically with him... hmmm... I don't know. I think with someone as seriously disconnected from reality as he is, you're d----d if you do, d----d if you don't, ya know? I reccomend giving him NO response. I really do. Because he is seriously not in touch with reality, and obviously hostile. He might be dangerous if confronted. There is no telling what he would do. Just do your best to stay away. That's what I would say.

[SS8282]

I second the motion - with what Sweet said - don't contact this guy. Getting together with other 'victims' may be a good idea - strength in numbers - and talk to the police. That should get their (police) attention.

[nothemama8]

Keep all documentation, register a complaint with police and notify your crisis services in your area, ask them to put an alert on this guy, you need to get this person 304rd so he can get the proper help and is not a danger to you and others.
We had a simular problem here, and that is what we had to do.
Good Luck Dave
Angie

[Daveumansky]

What do you mean by 304--am not familiar with the term.
My company just told me that they have shown his past communications to an "expert" at the police, who said they indicated the guy was no danger. But he has not heard the recording on my voicemail.

[nothemama8]

A 304 is a term for hospitalizing a person without there consent, because of immediate danger toward others

[jbug]

I have been thinking for 2 days on whether I should share this or not and decided ok I will.

When I was in High School I was a stalker. I stalked my high school history teacher. He was nice to me and I decided that meant he loved me and wanted us to be together. So out in left field that thinking was. He was happily married and had 2 kids. Any way I drove by his house a gajillion times a night. At Christmas time stood out with a friend and sang Christmas carols to him etc. He made me mad one day ( I can't remember what happened to make me mad) but I told him I know where you live and I will run over your dog and kill your kids. Ok this is where I take a deep breathe and try to stay calm. He was the sponsor on our senior trip to the Soviet Union and he jarred my world by saying if I came within 50 feet of his house again he would call the police and I wouldn't get to go on the trip. Well that was enough to make me stop but to this day I can't stop thinking about what I put him and his family through.

I have borderline personality disorder and I know this is no excuse but its the facts. I have since apologized to him and he has forgiven me and I plan to never see him again. I think to make this person stop harassing you you need to push him by getting the police involved. Having a policeman tell you to quit contacting someone is a pretty good wake up call. I can tell you from experience that ignoring him won't make him go away it kind of tells him its ok to be doing what he's doing since it can't make you mad.

Janniebug

[dexter]

janniebug

{{{{{{janniebug}}}}}}

Thank you for sharing that. I know it must have been difficult but I think it will help a lot of people, hearing your story, and this is a safe place to share it.

I think Dave you have a lot of votes for "contact the police," maybe even if there isn't enough to file a report, they will still talk to him and maybe scare him into stopping... even if not, you want a police complaint on record.

Keep in mind though that this may be a little different as he isn't infatuated with you (at least not outwardly) but may think in his twisted way that he is "doing his duty" to inform everyone of your "wrongdoings."

And you also have a lot of votes for "don't contact him yourself." I think this person is able to twist any contact you may have with him to fit his own view of the world. If you talk to him nicely he may decide that you are not bad but are now a supergood friend to him again which might be just as bad. Of it might make him even more angry and determined. The goal is to make him forget about you and I think any form of contact from you will stoke the coals so to speak.

Even if he is not a danger, you don't want him disparaging your reputation for the rest of your life. People may understand now but suppose he wrecks your credit or something. In any case you don't want to have to be worrying whether he is dangerous or not for the rest of your life.

Good luck...

I agree with Angela.....get everything together and do not say anything bad about him. Be calm, cool and collected, but do share your numerous concerns with law enforcement people. I've been stalked and ignoring her, did not make her go away. I had to involve law enforcement to get it stopped. Please be safe. Pat

[SweetCrusader]

((((Janniebug)))) You are so brave for sharing that! I'm amazed! I think it shows how much you care to help other people, too.

I think the vote is unanimous here! Contact him THROUGH law enforcement and tell him it needs to stop!!!

Best of luck to you!!

[Daveumansky]

I hear what you're saying--and it makes sense to contact the fellow through the police and get him to lay off. But.... I have some misgivings. Basically they are as follows:
First, it would be contrary to the accepted wisdom, such as it is, encapsulated in the book The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, who deals with this precise type of situation in a chapter entitled, suitably enough, "Persistence, Persistence." I don't recall if I mentioned this book before--I've been corresponding with a bunch of people so I forget.
Secondly, this is New York City so it is hard to get the police to deal with such situations. But even if I do, according to deBecker such contacts actually make such things worse.
Is anyone out there familiar with deBecker's book? It is really quite good, and also jibes with the advice that I received, separately, from a psychologist a few years ago.
Anyway, I am still wrestling with the thing and have not ruled anything out.
By the way, if you think this is bad, he accused my former boss of taking a $3 million bribe and he accused another former boss of being in league with criminals.
His accusations are so wild that nobody takes them seriously. He accused me in one recent letter--I just got a copy of it today--of "covering up" for serial murders, rapes and narcotics trafficking.
I am less worried about the letters than I am about him turning violent. The letters just make him look nuts.

[SweetCrusader]

I didn't realize you were in NYC. Yes that could be problematic!

I think the reason we are all pressuring you toward doing something about the letters IS BECAUSE of the potential he could escalate.

I personally am not familiar with any literature, no. Just trying to advise you on how to keep yourself safe. I don't think I have any more info to offer. But I think this person is probably actively psychotic. Meaning he is not in touch with reality and needs to be medicated.

I feel for you. Wish I knew what to tell you!

Angela