Clarification of my resources Ref: obscene language, juvenile

<font color="green"> Only for those interested, I post these resources regarding the USA listing of obscenity (utterance = language) for the Supreme Court (non protected language) and also the DSM definition for ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) in juveniles:<font color="blue">

The dispositive question is whether obscenity is utterance within the area of protected speech and press. [n8] Although this is the first time the question has been squarely presented to this Court, either under the First Amendment or under the Fourteenth Amendment, expressions found in
numerous opinions indicate that this Court has always assumed that obscenity is not protected by the freedoms of speech and press. Ex parte Jackson, 96 U.S. 727, 736-737; United States v. Chase, 135 U.S. 255, 261; Robertson v. Baldwin, 165 U.S. 275, 281; Public Clearing House v.
Coyne, 194 U.S. 497, 508; Hoke v. United States, 227 U.S. 308, 322; Near v. Minnesota, 283 U.S. 697 , 716 ; Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568 , 571-572 ; Hannegan v. Esquire, Inc., 327 U.S. 146, 158; Winters v. New York, 333 U.S. 507, 510; Beauharnais v. Illinois, 343 U.S. 250, 266. [n9] [p*482]

The guaranties of freedom of expression [n10] in effect in 10 of the 14 States which by 1792 had ratified the Constitution, gave no absolute protection for every utterance. Thirteen of the 14 States provided for the prosecution of libel, [n11] and all of those States made either blasphemy or profanity, or both, statutory crimes.
[n12] As early as [p*483] 1712, Massachusetts made it criminal to publish "any filthy, obscene, or profane song, pamphlet, libel or mock sermon" in imitation or mimicking of religious services. Acts and Laws of the Province of Mass. Bay, c. CV, § 8 (1712), Mass.Bay Colony Charters & Laws 399 (1814). Thus, profanity and obscenity were related offenses.

In light of this history, it is apparent that the unconditional phrasing of the First Amendment was not intended to protect every utterance. This phrasing did not prevent this Court from concluding that libelous utterances are not within the area of constitutionally protected speech. Beauharnais v. Illinois, 343 U.S. 250, 266. At the time of the adoption of the First Amendment, obscenity law was not as fully developed as libel law, but there is sufficiently contemporaneous evidence to show that obscenity, too, was outside the protection intended for speech and press. [n13] [p*484]
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"ODD (oppositional defiant disorder)
The features of ODD are passive aggressive, and include a persistent argumentative nature with authority, frequent loss of temperament, frequent use of obscene language general anger, resentment, and irritability. Intentional annoyance is a common pattern, and when challenged, the oppositional blames others for the wrongdoing. The youth exhibits “normal” or “acceptable” behavior in many instances, i.e. during a clinical evaluation, an ODD youth misleads an unsuspecting therapist, or the school fails to understand a parents frustration because the youth is well behaved at school, or vise versa, the school complains to an unsuspecting parent. In short, an ODD "chooses" his or her yet, battleground. In most instances, the youth sees his or her oppositional behavior as justified, righting real or perceived injustices in its life. The behaviors are certainly annoying and trying perhaps, but fall short of physical aggression, physically violating the basic rights of others (conduct disorder)

Other features associated with ODD might include low self esteem/image, mood impairments, low frustration tolerance. Other ailments can complicate a positive diagnosis of ODD to the point where ODD is often overlooked. Such ailments include ADHD, Tourettes Syndrome (TS), and Dyslexia. These ailments can also accompany ODD, further complicating the diagnosis and proper treatment.

In My Professional Opinion:

An oppositional youth is striving to find ways to satisfy a "false" image that contradicts his or her perception of the" real" self. It can be often supported there is a deep-seated level of inward anger or sadness that represents weakness or vulnerability. The self perception of an ODD youth may also equate to that of a failure, a "misfit." It is not uncommon to find that youths with ODD also suffer from comorbid conditions that further supports a weakening self perception. In addition, many ODD youths qualify for Special Education status. Such status further supports their "misfit" perception especially as they experience the teasing and name calling from fellow students. In the end, the ODD youth is attempting to create a stronger outward image, compensating for the "flawed" real self. Such a mission creates a "split" in his or her identity (not to be confused with Dissociative Disorder, at least at this stage of development).

With such a negative self-concept, an ODD youth may choose to live up to the image, and against the real self. In the process of becoming the "image" self, they create the stranger within. They become, in a sense, a stranger to themselves. In an attempt to create a connection to this new image, they need external validation. This comes in the way of getting needs of approval, acceptance, and association met. External validation becomes to goal, the new mission. In most instances, this new mission takes the face of rebellion, of oppositional defiance. The associations made may include gangs, "undesirable" peers, illicit substance abuse/alcohol, delinquents. Students often face school suspensions, devaluing education, some might face juvenile probation or gain membership into the local juvenile institution.. Also many oppositional youth will be void of spiritual direction/training, a stable sense of a moral and ethical core.

Causes :

The causes of ODD are unclear. Studies show a variety of possibilities, Parent-Child Interaction, Family Dynamics/Functionality, Peer Sociometrics, Neighborhood and Sociocultural Factors, Bio-Genetic, Neurological Factors, etc. While researchers compile factors that might predict the onset of ODD, the progressiveness of ODD, and correlation with other disruptive behavior disorders, these same factors prove unreliable as determinates. More than likely, there is a correlation with all of these (and perhaps others unlisted) across the full ODD spectrum.

Without belaboring this point, I know of situations where ODD is present in youths where the families are relatively functional, from middle-class backgrounds, with sound support systems. I have also seen instances where functional youths come out of very dysfunctional systems, one parent in prison, or single family homes, povershed environments, etc. There are no concrete causal factors that explain a youth to go awry. Services Free At-Risk Youth Assessment Clinical
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http://www.lifework.cc/this_one_bak2_010.htm<font color="green">

You can search online for plenty of resources for most countries around the world,and find that they generally state the same above: use of foul,/obscene language is generally attributed to deviancy/delinquency. Thus my stating that someone who uses profanity profusely is acting juvenile. sigh.

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Students often face school suspensions, devaluing education, some might face juvenile probation or gain membership into the local juvenile institution.

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Not having the training and education that you have, Sky, it was my feeling that excessive use of profanity was partly a lack of proper education. I'm glad to see that I was partly right. It's my opinion, because I sure have the ability to, that one can use "proper" language to completely squash a person to nothing, if that is the intent. There are also very good English words to make strong points without resorting to profanity. That is, of course, if one has the education.

Thank you for helping me reassure my beliefs.

It's amazing to what lengths people will go to fuss and flutter when they can't control what someone else says or how they say it. As for me, I prefer Lenny Bruce's take on the matter myself.

In my community, everyone swears, It doesn't matter what some out of touch group concluded.
Anyway isn't this nitpicking just the tinyist bit? If I said, gork, instead of %#@&#!, would it change a thing?
As for going on about my education well I have specialised in the sciences, a lot of people who do that have poor english skills, I am dyslexic also. That aside I think my english is pretty good considering I don't get much opportunity to use it (in school all I do is calculations, and I don't have any kind of a social life, I also find it very hard to concentrate on reading these past few years.)

IMHO --

Back in the days of the Free Speech Movement, when using f*** and c********* and other, up til that time, descriptions in everyday life was verboten -- and around the time of Lenny Bruce's classic monologue on the topic -- using these terms was a POWERFUL statement. I used to have a racier vocabulary back then.

Now that so many people use f''' every second word, it no longer has much power. In fact, it has become a rather weak expression. Some people may be offended. I'm mostly offended that the user doesn't care enough about communicating with me to be creative and incisive. And I feel badly that the person doesn't care enough about others in general to be courteous toward the values of those who may find such language offensive. I've come to a place in my life where I want to be polite and honor other people as best I can.

But that's me. No one else has to share my tiny rock ledge of perception, and I can be okay with that.

The point is it doesn't matter why are people making such a big deal out of it? It takes protracted concentrated effort for me not to swear, and most people don't care, so I really don't see what all the fuss is about.

Honestly, I have to concur with candistyx here. Let's let it die y'all

Thing is, it DOES matter... to a few of us, anyway. There are also some that would discuss politics and/or religion all day long. However, we have been asked not to do this in respect for those that would be uncomfortable with it.

The difference between #$%& and "f***" is no difference at all! Others still know what you are saying. It triggers that word in our brain and for me, it's just as offensive as if it had been typed outright.

As the old saying goes... "When in Rome, do as the Romans do"... or NOT do.

I believe the reason DocJohn requests we don't post about politics or religion is not because of persons discomfort with the topic - but because of the fights that breakout! "People usually hold pretty strong opinions about these topics" - this had lead to hurt feelings, etc.

The Community Guidelines also ask us not to use "profane" language. I guess as long as DocJohn doesn't consider **** or %&*$ to be profane, it's fine to use it. Of course, some people have now expressed the opinion that they find it offensive. People who DO curse here will have to keep that in mind and decide if they care or not, I guess.

I DO curse....but it is a good writing exercise to attempt to use different words. Making my brain hunt around for alternatives is thinking. Thinking is exercising my depressed, lazy brain. Writing is an art. Using **** is not particularly artistic.

If certain posters curse a lot and that offends you, you can always just put them on your ignore list so the curse words aren't seen by you.

Emmy's 2 cents

I swear every so often and mainly its s.... or an occasional f.... but then again sometimes screaming them just lets the energy out I am carrying so I have to. But when I do I'm usually driving my car and I'm the only one in my car so therefore no one can be offended. I try to watch what I say just because of my beliefs but every once in awhile while I'm in the company of some of my friends a swear word will come out and I get embarrased as they don't swear and kind of look at me funny. I'm not sure what the nature of the original post was intended to say but I know that swearing for me is good.

Janniebug

Hmm, I am always late to the party? I am someone who swears to communicate strong emotion. I was slapped across the face for showing ANY emotion and swearing, now, as an adult, has a power to express that which I was NEVER allowed to express. Now, I am a parent and my dear baby boy went through a period of f the every other word. he has grown out of it, thank the stars. But it was hard for me and offensive. Go figure? But for me the use of certain language is a pretty good indicator of very strong feelings on my part. And yes, I have gotten better at finding describing words but please remember that I never had the language to express ANY feelings and this all still pretty new to me. Heck, I am half way through my life and still a baby in this area. Thankfully we can raise children who know what sad is and embarrassed and angry.

The original thread is in General (the one that's locked.) It was something about a green plastic watering can or such. Members highjacked the thread and proceeded to discuss my response, so I began a new thread (this one) trying to explain that it isn't my OPINION about using profane language profusely being juvenile, but that I use foundational materials for my view.

And yes, I understand how once in a while one can sense a need to use a certain word to clearly explain something! LOL

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Back in the days of the Free Speech Movement, when using f*** and c********* and other, up til that time, descriptions in everyday life was verboten -- and around the time of Lenny Bruce's classic monologue on the topic -- using these terms was a POWERFUL statement. .... Now that so many people use f''' every second word, it no longer has much power. In fact, it has become a rather weak expression.

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If that's the case, it would show by people ignoring it and bypassing over it instead of making a big stink and fuss about it. The desperate need to attempt to insult someone else's educational and creativity levels are a dead giveaway in this regard. I find it ironic that these directly insulting and offensive responses are deemed acceptable against people with a habit of peppering their speech, while said peppering is falsely maligned as some type of lack of consideration for others when nothing personal or conscious drives it at all. Very interesting little hypocrisy-revealing juxtaposition indeed, that.

Gee, Em, what a concept, pushing the ignore button! Why didn't I think of that?! Guess I've never been one to slink away from unpleasantness, but so be it.

In the business world, profanity is a rarity. Does that mean people in business act more maturely than say, people at a construction site or at university? No, not really. They just do a better job covering up their immaturity and have to find other ways to express it (usually in a more negative, subtle and deceptive manner).

Profanity is looked down upon in any community of people from a wide range off backgrounds, age groups, and even nationalities (this isn't just a USA-only place!). Why? Because language is difficult enough to use for many to express themselves adequately online. Adding profanity to the mix usually means your message is going to be lost on some who can't get past the profanity.

The software automatically substitutes the universal $#!#!%&amp; symbols for profanity when it comes across a banned word. These are the mores that guide our community... you can use it when you feel the need, but you shouldn't abuse the ability. If you really need to express your profanity, PM yourself or post a website of profanity or go post it in a newsgroup (Google &gt; Groups).

Learning how to communicate even the most angry, upset feelings you can without profanity can be a challenge, and I won't say everyone can do it. Practically everybody swears in their lives, so it's a bit ridiculous to single out people for doing it here. I just ask that it's always kept to a minimum.

Thanks,
DocJohn

Speaking of cursing in the business world....when Emmy was fresh outta college in 19xx....I had this real jerk of a boss. He was always over editing my writing - just looking for something to criticize and mark up with his big red pen. One day, his secretary dropped off one of my proposals on my desk with his handwriting across the top. In big red letters it said, "F U Emmy!" Well, I was steaming! I was thinking.....well F U too buddy!! I marched my young self into his office, tossed the note on his desk, and said, "What is THIS supposed to mean??!"

He said, "That means Follow Up on this with Emmy".

Oh.

Talk about feeling stoooopid!

hmm I think that seems kind of vauge to write something like that!

Emmy - LOL - thanks for bringing a fresh air of lightening up into this thread. And DocJohn, thank you for your objectivity on the matter. Hopefully everyone now feels validated and we can get on with supporting one another. I know for myself despite the fact that I can get really hostile when negatively triggered I honestly do not like confrontation and conflict and prefer to make friends rather than enemies or "mutual ignore parties". I do not express myself well when I'm triggered and unfortunately I am subject to stronger compulsion to speak than to be silenced, though on occasion my Guardians will Censor me.

Emmy, maybe he was being passive aggressive? jk

Seriously, though, I would think he'd be smarter than to write that and not expect you to think it meant "F--- You, Emmy"

Strange fellow. Hmm...

LOLOL that is funny emmy, and does show how, depending upon what vein we are functioning within (our environment , background, common resources) colors what we see or expect to see!
Along that same vein, I tell a story (perhaps you've heard it?) about how in another, though hostile, community, I kept receiving "GFU"s. I passed that along to others, thinking GOOD FOR YOU while doing so. It was quite a while before someone took me "aside" and said it was GO *** yourself! It never crossed my mind!

[I think that 's correct above: the gfu and gfy. Anyway, now I tend to spell it out LOL] Since this is a support site, I sure don't wish to be telling someone a non-supportive phrase!

He was definately a goober, but I think his real problem was working with women. He was very "old school". His secretary was the last to get a PC. Sky, ya remember the type? He did NOT like that I was a college educated female, and ...eeek....SMART!!?! (Of course, I didn't know my memo from my stapler, and it took me years to learn the difference). But by then, he'd retired, I was promoted, and his secretary got her PC. And we all lived happily ever after.

F U, Emmy.

LOL

F U Emmy! you are positively hilarious as well as adorable.

ARGH! So much for respect for other's feelings and consideration! Oh, well... I don't have to read, do I?

Um, did you read Emmy's post about what F U Emmy means?

that would be: Follow Up with Emmy

Yes, I did. Today, right at this very moment, in my present perspective, it seems that it's just being rubbed in. But like I said, that's just me.