DBT gives me PTSD

Suggest away! But even a blinking flower can see that!

FoolZ, lol, you are good. Like how you take off at the end there. No I'm not triggered, but finding this discussion more and more interesting.

Do they call "********" to delusional thinking? Like I have delusional thinking that makes me believe, at times, that one or a few people are controlling my life. There's a part of my mind that knows this is crazy, not to mention impossible - someone would have to spend their whole life, all their time, following me around. They'd even be in charge of traffic and TV conversations!

But when I'm too depressed, stressed or triggered that's not only what I think - I Believe it and will go off on people based on my feeling & thinking that they are doing things on purpose to make me angry, or hurt me or teach me a lesson. Like that. I feel hopeless and like I have no control over my life. Calling "********" when I'm in that zone would just make me go right off the edge and act really crazy, maybe even hurt myself or someone else.

"to ask instead of gaming"
See most often I was/am not gaming (and if I was I was not aware of it so the "********" call just baffled me and scared me, made me doubt my own feelings and motives), but I'm not asking for help either. I'm just saying what's happening with me or how I'm really feeling in answer to people's questions, or in conversation in general.

Other's will interpret it as gaming. I learned as a child that if I'm going to get anything I need, or be taken care of, I have to do it all myself. I'm still learning to ask for help when I need it. I also learned that if I do ask for help, most often the answer is NO. So I'm also afraid to ask for help, or was. I'm much better than I used to be. It hurts to have my family or people I thought of as good friends say no to a request I felt was reasonable and appropriate.

"Connections, connections! Follow the trail! lol Don't look now, but you're doing DBT already "
Okay Smarty Pants.

"Dare I suggest... that it might be neither with the therapy nor with the woman, but with what you wouldn't want either one to trigger for you right now?"

No argument there from me. I'm just figuring out MY particular PTSD and triggers. I want to stop that as much as possible. Even more though I want the delusional thinking process to stop. I'm not getting how DBT helps with delusional thinking, or if it's even supposed to? And yes, again, I do NOT like feeling uncomfortable or "out of control" - at all! So there's that re the DBT. My feeling is why would anyone want to be MADE to feel uncomfortable, I've had enough of that all my life. I'm yearning, searching for comfort and ease in my relationships.

Definitely. Of course we had no idea going in, but we found out over the course of the workshop that these guys meant what they said and were very very good at maintaining their integrity. IMO, the whole thing was staged in such a way that there was always a clean "background" against which any gaming or "********" was going to stand out like a neon sign.

In this part......you're sharing what's coming up for you, including the thoughts you're having such as "did he do this on purpose". Although you're not doing it by formula as we might have in the workshop ("I have the thought that...") you're still making it pretty clear that you recognize these as your own thoughts. Thank you for sharing them (and you're invited to continue).

In this part, though......you've switched to telling a story about yourself. Certainly in the workshop, and I suspect in DBT as well, you could expect to have that pointed out to you and (if you didn't still get it) to have "********" called on you. Get the distinction?

This is neither the workshop nor DBT, so I'm sorry your T cancelled. I'd be very, very surprised if it had anything to do with punishing you for negativity; that wouldn't be part of any legitimate therapy that I know of.

Another tangent or two, if you don't mind. What Linehan (the lion-cage lady) is up to is not so much doing DBT herself, as training therapists and those who support them. She says, for instance:
(From the book, pp. 183-184)

It's been a while since I saw this other part, I can't find it right now, and I may not be remembering it accurately. Still, I remember Linehan saying something to the effect that if, after participating in DBT for a while, a patient insists (or demonstrates? I don't remember) that it's not working for her, the therapist needs to point out that it would be unethical for him/her (T) to continue doing a therapy that's not working for the patient -- so what should they do now?

The bottom line, looking from here anyway, is that therapists don't cancel sessions arbitrarily and that if (when) they have therapy-interfering issues with their patients, they also have supervisors to help them spot those early and clear them up. The idea is for the patient not to have to second-guess the therapist or the therapy, and to be able to proceed safely until instructed otherwise.

Hope you're feeling better, Pom More later.

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Malady recently started calling me "FooZe". I found I rather liked it, but I'll cheerfully answer to "FoolZ" too.

Pom, I can see how DBT could just not be for you. Do you think that you get triggered when any kind of manipulation comes up? I was never manipulated while growing up but I get a little freaked out if a person is an under the table kind of person.

When you get triggered it sends you back to being that small child again. This never feels right if there are still issues to work on.

...it might be neither with the therapy nor with the woman, but with what you wouldn't want either one to trigger for you...
Oh, good.

------------------------------------
Meant to include this earlier: in an old cartoon, Dennis the Menace announces, logically enough, that he's not afraid of the dark -- only of what's IN it.

Thought I'd share that so you could put your armchair psychology to better use instead of wasting it on me.

What are they doing under that table?

Yes Sannah, I do seem to get triggered when ever I feel I'm being manipulated, but it's range depends on the situation.

If I'm going new car shopping, I know to expect the car salesman to be a bit manipulative so I don't get as high strung, unless s/he lays it on too heavy.

But if someone seems to be using my lack of knowledge about something, or my naivety or general nice nature I get triggered by the manipulation much worse.

My mother is a master manipulator, she does not even realise she does it - giving her the benefit of a doubt. But boy can she pull the rug right out from under me and mess with my mind! It's one of the reasons I cut off contact with her. She can get really nasty. And yes, I become that little frightened child again.

When I read how these therapist are supposed to conduct themselves in DBT, it pushes those same buttons. But Fool Zero seems to be putting a more humane face on it, or explaining it in a less threatening way. So I thank him for that.

It does still strike me as sort of another fad though. Seems all types of businesses and the medical profession, teachers, etc. go through fads of one kind or another. But just because something is a fad does not mean it won't turn out to be a valuable tool or asset.

Pomegranate: But when I'm too depressed, stressed or triggered that's not only what I think - I Believe it and will go off on people based on my feeling & thinking that they are doing things on purpose to make me angry, or hurt me or teach me a lesson. Like that. I feel hopeless and like I have no control over my life.

I think a better thing to call at that point would be "time out" so that you have a chance to settle your emotions and the opportunity to reflect. More often, when we get triggered we don't reflect, we simply respond. With practice however we can learn to recognize that we have been or are about to be triggered. In a situation with a significant other, we may be able to ask them to give us some time alone. In a more formal setting such as work or a social situation, we may be able to make a polite excuse so we can withdraw from the situation.

See most often I was/am not gaming (and if I was I was not aware of it so the "********" call just baffled me and scared me, made me doubt my own feelings and motives), but I'm not asking for help either. I'm just saying what's happening with me or how I'm really feeling in answer to people's questions, or in conversation in general.

My father was a social worker and I recall years ago he used to say to myself and my siblings, "I see your game!". The trouble was, we didn't it and no one had bothered to teach us the rules. All these years later I'm still not sure what he meant and neither am I sure that he wasn't playing a game of his own. Regardless, in that particular instance, his suggestion that we were playing games only seemed to impede any communication.

Often, our arguments were in relation to household chores so it might have been more honest for him to say something along the lines of, "I feel overburdened and resentful that you kids don't do more to help out without making me make you." In hindsight it seems more likely to me that that's what he was going through and it might have been something we could grasp.

Meantime, I got curious so I went looking for some information. I was surprised to see the mention of contemplative practices, mindfulness and acceptance mentioned in association with DBT. Here's more...

Quote:

At the start of her career, Dr. Linehan set out to develop a treatment for chronically suicidal patients... The main change target of Dialectical Behavior Therapy is to help patients stop engaging in life threatening behaviors.

What if my circumstances are intolerable? How do you tolerate the intolerable? Why should I even be expected to?

I especially feel suicidal because of my delusional thinking. Meds help somewhat. But it's my decision what I want my quality of life to be. For most of the past 25 years now I've been dealing with major depression and delusional thinking. It's not really I life I want to live all that much.

I think Sannah and Orange Blossom are right, DBT is not something that would be very useful to me.

Thanks everyone for your input, this is conversation while interesting, is stressing me out. I think I need to not read about or think about DBT.

lol!......

Hi, all,

I read this thread with great interest, and really want to say that there are some very smart, wise, and caring posters on P.C. The entire exchange is very impressive from that aspect. Wow. I really am impressed at the level of the exchange.

That's all I've got to say about it for now. Got to let it all digest for a while.

Love and thanks to all who posted, for a very interesting and enlightening exchange.

LizzyB

Thought balloon:
oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Officially not posted by Fool Zero:

I'd ask her what she meant, but it sounds to me
like she doesn't really want me to know.

oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

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I didn't say anything.

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Editor's note: The used above may look just like the standard [Roll Eyes (Sarcastic)] but was specially processed to strip away the sarcasm, then recycled for use here. I sometimes look at the ceiling when I'm thinking and that's what this smiley looks like it's doing.
I may have neglected to "clean" another one used similarly earlier in this thread; if so, just ignore the "(Sarcastic)" part.

{{{{Pomegranate }}}}

I'm sorry you're so stressed about all of this and I apologize if I had any part of it.

I hope you are doing okay today.

Your feelings, regardless of the topic, are totally valid and I wanted you to know I heard you.

We'd love to hear more from you, after you do.

But earlier:
Pom, until you tell me otherwise I'll assume I'm off the hook for the "More later". I do still hope you're feeling better.

I also enjoyed the thread for I'd not known much about DBT and I know more now. As for what will be the most appropriate treatment for any individual -- chances are, it's going to be one they're receptive to and feel comfortable embracing. Sometimes, it can be helpful to be challenged (such as Elysium shared) but when that does happen, it seems best if the challenge is backed up by some degree of loving feeling. Elysium likely wouldn't have risen to her therapist's challenge if there hadn't been some mutual caring in place. By the same token, there are some forms of treatment I consider to be wholly inappropriate for me and I don't feel badly for rejecting them. I know what feels good for me and what doesn't.

As for "armchair psychology"... Well, aren't we all doing that very thing here at psychcentral?

Sometimes we may not appreciate or care for what we hear but we are always free to pick it up and carry it with us for a while or to leave it lying there. I've picked up Fool Zero's words on more than one occasion and walked with them for a while. I certainly found it beneficial but as always, individual mileage can vary.

~ Namaste

A few more meandering thoughts...

I don't believe the intent of this topic was to talk anyone into engaging in DBT but I did think it was admirable of you to raise the issue Pomegranate because it brings up unpleasant feelings for you. It's been my experience that it's beneficial to hang out with unpleasantness for awhile to see what it's all about for us.

You seemed to be expressing your own unpleasantness quite succinctly when you said: What if my circumstances are intolerable? How do you tolerate the intolerable? Why should I even be expected to?

These seem to be common feelings for people who have been through experiences we identify as traumatic. There is a keening cry which resounds in a voice that says, very loudly: NOT FAIR!

Any human being might face circumstances they find to be intolerable or unjust. Sometimes the surprising thing is, we make it through and discover that what we thought was intolerable was tolerable after all, even as it was also brutal, painful and highly unpleasant.

A practice which I found helpful when I got stuck in such places of my own is tonglen. I've shared this around before but it's mostly been in the schizophrenia topic -- I don't know if you read there so you might not be familiar with it. Note that I'm not sharing it with a sense of "shouldness". There are no "shoulds" when it comes to what's going to work best for us as individuals. I found the practice helpful because it took me out of my sense of aloneness. I also found that if I was stuck in a painful place, it became more bearable if I could find some purpose for that pain. With those modest disclaimers in place, I share it with you in the same spirit. If you don't find it helpful, I suggest you simply leave it lying there. If you do find it helpful, pick it up, carry it and walk with it for awhile...

I also just realized... there is a Social Group here devoted to DBT Discussion and Support. Obviously, not everyone would feel comfortable participating or reading there but for those who found this thread interesting and might be seeking more information, they could try there. I just peeked in and there's an article shared there as related to mindfulness that caught my attention.

I was a member here for a long time before I even knew there were Social Groups so if you're like me and don't know where to find them, look to the message: Welcome, your user name at the upper right of the page. Below that you'll see a link called Quick Links. If you click on that a drop-down menu will open and you can select Social Groups from that link.

((((pomegranate))))

than you for starting this thread. the philosophy & theory behind DBT triggers me also. i will personally scratch anyone's eyes out who ever tried that sort of stuff on me.

edit: as for your question of why you should tolerate the intolerable - i read an article on DBT a while back (not sure if it was by the devil-woman or not) which said that this is one of the preliminary goals of DBT: figuring out whether your circumstances really are tolerable or not. e.g., no good therapist is going to try and make you continue to live in abusive situation by making it "tolerable". if your life really is untolerable, they would want to help you make the changes necessary to make it ok (actually, devil-woman said that the therapist should call the px's bluff and ask them why they don't just kill themselves right that day. i hate her, i really do).

but if external safety and basic needs are being met, then they might work with you to help tolerate all those triggers that we find in normal life. e.g., someone asked me out recently and i flew off the deep end - this is something i imagine a DB-therapist would want to make more 'tolerable'.

Don't know much about DBT.......only that it seems to be the therapy of choice for BPD nowadays........Give me CBT anytime!! Works for me.......

(((Pomegranite))) hope you feel better soon - take care

Im coming late to this thread but i wanted to throw somthing into the pot

My T takes bits from everything CBT, TFT, DBT, he is a kind and caring person and has never played games with me - he is always striaght with me and I would not be able to trust him if he werent -

I think there are good and bad bits in most therapies - the DBT things he has gone through with me are Radical acceptance - emotion regulation and distress tolerance and that has helped me - although not easy to do - I have been to the DBT chats here and found them useful and am a member of the DBT group - eek! dont shoot me ok!!!! I am interested in all and every therapy - most of the time I am hanging by a thread (no pun inteneded! ) and would find out about oooh kitten therapy if I had the faintest thought it might work -

I saw a Marsha LIneham video and I must admit she made me angry - she seemed to be condescending but I think that was just her way of speaking -

I must admit some of the comments you guys (and gals ) have said she says in her book have made me angry (havnt read and it and dont want to now grrr!)- I have been manipulated and I have a built in Bull manure meter that goes off if someon tries to play me - and so the idea that she would tell someone to do what it says in her book makes me angry - tell someone who was suicidal to go do it? !!!!!!! grrrr !!!!!!!! is that supposed to be shock treatment? - but hey it may work for some... not me though

I treat all therapy in the same way - taking what works and leaving the rest and T does the same - if somthing makes me angry or triggery I look at it and try to find out why so I can prevent it from happening again - somtimes that helps me move forward.

Anyway, interesting thread and I think we all have to find what works for us- - take care one and all - be safe be happy be well P7

Why does a person feel the need to use that type of approach at all?

Offhand, I'd say that maybe the person has a certain amount of discomfort with the behavior a sufferer presents, and wants to make it go away. I can see that this kind of approach might have value if done with exceeding care and self-awareness, but it could also slip very easily into abuse. I feel this is true of most "treatments" that I see in psychiatry these days: whose symptoms are being addressed, the patient's, or the therapizer's? Is the purpose of a treatment to reveal, to open up -- or to conceal, to suppress, symptoms? Must the patient's fears and bad memories be recaptured, brought into the light, or must expression of them be avoided -- in whose interests? Are we protecting the patient, or the one giving "therapy"? My impression of "behavioral" treatments, the ones that permanently avoid delving into the past, is that it is primarily the latter, the "therapizer" who wants to avoid confronting his/her own fears. This may not be necessarily so, but I think without a high order of mindfulness, of awareness of the therapist's own motives, therapy can slip from true healing to merely covering over the patient's distress (temporarily) -- all in the name, of course, of "helping" (somebody).

One of the comments at the bottom of the page starts with this:

"Individualized therapy in DBT has been the reason people get better NOT steadfastly following every exercise in her training books."

I agree with this. It depends critically on what the attempted therapist is actually doing, not on some recipe.

(BTW, it's Linehan, not Lineham.)