[vonmoxie]

I wanted to share something I found that I think could be a good tool for self-care around what I have found to be a troubling symptom of complex PTSD, that is, cripplingly negative self-talk that has so become second nature that we may not even realize all the times and ways in which we are doing it.

A self-reporting form for noting negative self-talk is provided in the book Cognitive Behavioral Therapies for Trauma, of which some portions are made available on the web; I first came across it while doing research on distorted trauma-related beliefs. Included is a section on "Modifying Guilt- and Shame-Related Self-Talk", and the program that is suggested for doing so seems to me to be one that could be well managed by some individuals.

A favorite term of mine is "cognitive distribution", as a synonym for the simple act of getting information onto paper and out of one's head at the same time, and I think that with certain information this can become an especially powerful tool. I am expecting to discover some detail about the negative self-talk that I am running in my own head, elements of which are not quite so apparent whilst they only exist in that space, that is, in my head!

If interested, you can view the self-monitoring form provided here, and read more about how to successfully use it here, but basically the idea is to note the only the first instance within delineated 4-hour periods, within each of three categories* of negative self-talk that you might have (otherwise it could be quite exhausting, trying to note them all sometimes, right? ). It is my own pre-existing belief based on what I perceive now, that I am more prone to negative self-talk earlier in the day, however it may just be that I get better at resolving the thoughts later in the day. Who knows how setting the information out in this way will be revealing; perhaps some thoughts I'm having are actually much more prominent or frequent than others, and will stand out as being those with the greatest potential reward to work on.

I don't much like the term cognitive distortion, as there seems to be some potential amidst the psych community at large to erroneously apply the term to things that are not distortions per se, but perspectives that can be valid in their own right. That said, I know that there are things I am telling myself at a deeper level that are not helpful to me, and that I wish to change, whatever their level of validity.

I'm all about well-directed cognitive distribution though; I journal a whole lot already on my own and it is indeed helpful, but it is quite unstructured, and I think this program will give me something positive and specific to work towards. I need a goal post, or throwing the football can be quite pointless. (Does that analogy even work? It's been so long since I watched a game..)

yours truly

---------------------------------
* The three categories of negative self-talk referenced:

1: I shoulda/coulda;
2: Self put-downs of entire personality or character such as I'm stupid, I'm inadequate, there's something wrong with me;
3: "I feel" statements that end with words that are not emotions such as ..obligated ..responsible

Thanks for this interesting overview, vonmoxie. I certainly have plenty of negative self talk myself. So this may be helpful. I also find my negative self talk seems to be at its worst early in the morning. I suppose this may have something to do with serotonin levels or something of that sort. But also it probably has to do with the fact, when I get up in the morning, I always feel like I was run over by a herd of bison!

[Open Eyes]

I think that is a good idea and I also think "cognitive distortions" can be used wrong and you are right, a person can have a perspective on something that is really not a distortion but "that person's" reality that they themselves may find unbelievable but true.

Yes, one of the symptoms of PTSD is shame and guilt and anger at one's sense of need and helplessness when experiencing a trigger that turns into a cycle. It is VERY important to learn "not" to feed into the negative feelings that can present with a cycle too. It is also important to think about one's dysfunctional parent/parents/family members that interact in a way that discards emotions or sharing emotions or even the right to have one's individual choices/tastes/hobbies/desires to do different things for one's self. Understand daily that just because there has been dysfunction and lack of support from family that it never means one is truly unworthy in any way.

[vonmoxie]

This is just my own observation and perspective, but I think that when the brain has been delivering a negative message for a long time (and I have a lifelong array of traumatic experience upon which my hindsight bias can blithely feast, although it is only a few choice recent-ish events that have thrown my CPTSD into an especially difficult spiral), it becomes so adept at doing so that it happens too quickly for the conscious brain to easily discern, let alone prevent. Over the last year I've started experiencing falling into a state of absolute dread literally within seconds of waking up.. it's sort of 1, 2, 3, and there it is. Only very recently have I felt the presence of a glimmer of optimism, albeit precariously teetering cliffside. But the dread is still very much present; and massive. I suppose, with my glimmer of optimism though, I am hoping that I can deconstruct and dismantle it.

[Open Eyes]

Yes, you react just as you would with any injury though because with a physical injury we "hurt" to let us know "where" we are hurt right? Well, that is what complex PTSD triggers do too. Ususally you would feel "pain" to let you know where the hurt is, well, that is what the complex PTSD does too, and only afterwards can you identify the pain and work through it and "self sooth and self care and use your adult mind/wise mind to help you work through it". Yes, you noticed a "glimmer", that is what you want to grow and develop within yourself for "your" own healing.

Triggers are not always enemies you know, cycles are not always "punishment" either. Everything that comes forward has to be recognized and you need to spend time with sorting through so you can heal and allow these emotions to finally be heard to where you can finally "grow" emotionally too. You want to pay attention to your negative talk too because all that does is prevent you from "emotional growth".

If we grew up or spent a lot of time around "dysfunctional" people who did not nurture us, which is really about helping us develop "emotional maturity", we don't want to keep those negative messages by also saying those same thing to ourselves right?

If you "feel" guilty because you need emotional comforting or help is that right? Would you really tell a child who needs your emotional support to go away they don't deserve that emotional help? Well, you most likely have an injured child in you because that is basically what complex PTSD is about, so how are you now going to help and nurture that hurt child in you? You need to seek out the people that can understand this healing journey and be supportive and "help you to help you" right?

[vonmoxie]

I've never been that fond of the word "trigger", since it can imply that its invocation occurs as the unstoppable flipping of a switch -- and while it can indeed feel quite automatic, reinforcing the idea with the language hardly seems helpful.

What you've so kindly and thoughtfully just written, OpenEyes, caused me to ponder how much more creatively we might consider their existence if we simply referred to them as navigational trauma checkpoints, or something along those lines.. as they are merely directing us to where the pain is located as you say, however dramatically, and getting into a space of observation instead of reaction will be, I believe, a key component for me. If I can pull it off that is.

Because I'm certainly not saying that I don't at times feel abso-*$%^ing-lutely, unstoppably triggered. I can't even peel myself off the ceiling most of the times it happens. But I've just got to fix it. Even if I have to create a cognitive distortion or few to do it! But let's hope it doesn't come to that.

Thank you.

[Parley]

That was an interesting read. I never considered obligated or responsible to be negative self talk. I'd see it if I were blaming myself for someone else's actions but it's so subtle when taking responsibility for my own actions in hindsight.

Thanks for the link Vonmoxie~

[Open Eyes]

It took me time to develop that way of observing. I did not understand it at all, nor did I know how to explain to others how challenged I really was with it. If one looks up PTSD, sure, there is a list of symptoms described with it, but even that doesn't help the person struggling nor does it help the people around them understand it and actually what can happen is other people can read the symptoms and be even more unsupportive and pushy. For example, the desire to isolate, well, people can try to push the person struggling to get out there and be around others etc. But, that is like telling a person with a broken leg to ignore it and go for a long walk.

I don't know if it is just me or not, but I found that it triggered me "more" when I was around my family than strangers. I think that is because it was easier to distance with strangers whereas with my family, I was expected to be the me before the PTSD, and I honestly did not know "how, or even if I could or even why I struggled so much".

What continues to bother me when I look back is how badly I was treated, even by professionals. And I "did" ask for grief counseling and I did talk about a big loss and I did express all the clear red flags that screamed "trauma patient". And when one reads about how badly soldiers that had it were treated and called cowards until it was recognized they really were not cowards but were really suffering, well, I was treated like a "coward or lazy or whiney or making too much of something" and that was wrong. I keep wondering "why" and why were my family members not instructed on what I was challenged with and how to support and help me?

Honestly, how I was treated "after" the traumatic situation that took place traumatized me more than the traumatic situation. And this is something I tend to see taking place with others that present in this forum too.

That is why I hover here so much and try to help others not feel so alone and to learn how to slowly develop the part of them that is trying to figure out what to do and what it all means. With everything I have experienced, I know what has helped me the most and having a person one can feel safe with and even go through some periods of emotionally venting without being ashamed, but instead allowing whatever it is to happen and then engage the part of the person that is what I call the "wise mind", to see it and have permission to learn about it, understand it better, and work on it with help.

I genuinely feel that PTSD is an "injury" and as with any "injury" there is a healing process and some kind of rehabilitation that has to take place. This opinion I have is nothing new because it is what Judith Herman learned years ago and wrote about in her book "Trauma and Recovery".

What I noticed about my own treatment that was very wrong is how the therapist/psychiatrist decided that I should not be so upset or value what I valued either. What surprised me about that is these individuals knew "nothing" about me or even what I did or the value of what I did and had either. One can understand how someone who knows nothing about human psychology might not know better, but from someone who is supposed to know better?, sorry but that is very wrong. Quite honestly, I think labeling is often worse and more stigmatized with professionals than it is with the general public. Too many Professionals "label" way too fast and don't spend enough time actually listening. That is like telling someone they only have a sprained ankle when they actually are suffering from a broken leg, or telling someone they have a broken leg when they are only suffering from a sprained ankle.

No, when someone is struggling with PTSD, they are already very confused, frightened, angry, ashamed and often disoriented, they don't deserve to have that added to. Instead, the person really needs to have a lot of understanding and support to help them develop that "wise mind" and learn how to slowly work through the different areas where they were "injured" and have to get support while they learn more and work on their rehabilitation.

OE

[vonmoxie]

There's so much in this post I want to respond to.. Despite the length of this response, I'm actually keeping it to a minimum here.

Originally Posted by Open Eyes

I don't know if it is just me or not, but I found that it triggered me "more" when I was around my family than strangers. I think that is because it was easier to distance with strangers whereas with my family, I was expected to be the me before the PTSD, and I honestly did not know "how, or even if I could or even why I struggled so much".

It's this way for me too, and unfortunately when my husband died I made the bad decision to move back to my hometown, from which I'd been estranged living in another state for 15 years. I don't make the best decisions when I am in crisis.

But just being around my mom is triggering. Her platitudes now, about other things, are the same ones she made then, about my awful childhood. And although she knows about almost everything that happened, she is married to the idea that her teaching me about things like which fork to use should have been enough of a foundation for me to counteract all the abuse I endured. She's still annoyed with me, that I'm not able to idealize my childhood in the way that she does. But the sad truth is that her presence has been one of the big factors in reactivating my PTSD.

She did save my life once, when my father was literally within an inch of ending it, which I suppose is what keeps me in touch with her. He might have only seriously maimed me, had she not pulled him away, which would have changed my life forever, so I'm thankful. But moving back here was a tragically bad idea.. I'd quite forgotten, after all this time, how crippling her words can be for me.

I agree it is an injury.. and in reading an excellent 2006 paper "The Influence of Organized Violence and Terror on Brain and Mind – a Co-Constructive Perspective" have been learning about how there are actually differences in the hippocampus in those with PTSD, shrinkage essentially.. and learning about Hebbian neuroscientific theory which is about metabolic changes occurring to cause "Cells that fire together, wire together". How we get rewired. As one friend of mine is apt to say on occasion, Sh%t is real, yo.

Here's an excerpt that I found especially compelling:

PTSD symptomatology can be understood as a consequence of plastic changes in memory through stressful, traumatic experiences. Life experiences are stored in autobiographical memory. The autobiographical context memory has been called “cold memory” (Metcalve & Jacobs, 1996). It contains knowledge about life-time periods and specific events. The sensory-perceptual representations of a traumatic event have been called “hot” or non-declarative (implicit) memory. It comprises emotional and sensory memories of all modalities. Cold memories (e.g., on March 24 at 3:30 I was living on my farm in Djakovica, we had three cows) are usually connected with hot sensory memories (e.g., black-masked, dark night, shooting, burning smell) as well as with cognitive (e.g., I can’t do anything), emotional (e.g., fear, sadness), and physiological elements (e.g., heart racing, fast breathing, sweating).

In individuals who are not affected by trauma or fear, hot memories are linked with autobiographic, declarative memories. However, in traumatized persons, sensory and emotional memories are activated by environmental stimuli without being related to autobiographic, declarative items (i.e., dates and places of autobiographical occurrences) – those autonomous hot memories form a fear network. An example of such a network is outlined in Figure 1. The activation of a single memory item (e.g., seeing a man in a uniform or feeling ones heartbeat) will cause the whole network to be activated. According to Hebbian learning, this will not only strengthen the interconnections between existing network units, but will also lead to an inclusion of additional network element, namely of those that are synchronously activated.



Figure 1: Example of a traumatic memory structure: the hot (non-declarative) memory builds a fear network. With each additional traumatic experience this fear network gets more and more extended, while the connections to the specific cold autobiographic events come more and more loose or even get lost.

I'm struggling with the negative self-talk work. I have, like, fear about fear about fear; wheels within wheels.. and it's so overwhelming at times, preventing me from even trying to do anything positive for myself. It's so hard to get my head wrapped around how it could develop so intensely into what it is now, but this Hebbian theory, how "Cells that fire together, wire together", does make sense of it. It's describing what I'm experiencing. The grooves of CPTSD. The way that it gets worse with every instance. This is from Wikipedia:

Hebbian theory concerns how neurons might connect themselves to become engrams. Hebb's theories on the form and function of cell assemblies can be understood from the following:

"The general idea is an old one, that any two cells or systems of cells that are repeatedly active at the same time will tend to become 'associated', so that activity in one facilitates activity in the other." (Hebb 1949, p. 70)

"When one cell repeatedly assists in firing another, the axon of the first cell develops synaptic knobs (or enlarges them if they already exist) in contact with the soma of the second cell." (Hebb 1949, p. 63)

Anyway, I so appreciate your input on this forum, OE. I'm encouraged by your approach, and by "where you're at".. and as you are clearly and intimately aware, encouragement is hard to come by with this affliction.

[Open Eyes]

Oh, thanks for posting that information vonmoxie.

It's important to keep in mind that the information above is a "theory". It does make sense, I can see that. And I have been "trying" to explain that too (as you have noticed).

When I talk about what happened to my horses and ponies from my neighbor's dog, that did not only change "me" but it also changed all of them too. They began to literally "panic" even seeing my neighbor's dog, and that was never a problem before. When I say panic, one of the horses upon just seeing my neighbors dog out and barking and running a little because he was tied, caused him to panic so badly he tried to jump out of his paddock and did not make it and bent the gate in half and was stuck on the gate. I wish I knew how to post pictures to show you what he did to that gate that had a plywood backing to it, good thing he had a winter blanket on, his body would have suffered severe lacerations. I had to figure out how to put up a huge screen to block his view and for a really long time none of them would stay out at night either, I had to get them all in before dark. (my neighbors electric underground containment system was not working so knowing I did not want their dog on my property they let it out late at night or when they saw I was not home. It targeted the horses every time which resulted in several chokes, colic, torn suspensories, fractured pelvis, destroyed hip joint, and torn ligaments, all kind of damages. My neighbors response? "Shoot the dog" and trying to throw the blame on me.

What I see in what is discribed above, is what comes over me when I go out there and am around them now, I don't want it to happen either, but by the time I am finished I am exhausted and often I feel like someone beat me up because my arms especially hurt so bad. My lesson ponies were basically destroyed and when I tried to train other ones I have flashbacks and it's very painful. I never imagined the one thing I loved so much woud hurt so much and become something my brain wants to avoid and it's not even a conscious decision. People don't understand that challenge. I still struggle to believe it happened it sure wiped me out. I was basically in constantly hyper vigilance for 5 months addressing all the damage before I just crashed and pretty much went into shock because I could not stop the chills, I could not get warm and I could not get through another day and I never really slept either. But I was literally abandoned in that psych ward and there was no rest there either, they intruded on me every 15 minutes and they let my older sister come and see me and yell at me to "get with the program and get it together or I will lose my marriage, family and farm?" I still can't believe I was treated so badly for being traumatized and so grief stricken, I was treated like I was a "bad person", that was so wrong and utterly cruel.

I honestly don't know whether I should move or what, but what do I do with these ones I have left? It's not their fault, and I know they love and trust me, they really "are" just like children you know.

Oh, I do work at this every day, I feel so bad for others that struggle and don't have help and support. I was so alone when I joined PC tbh, I didn't have help at the time either. When I joined PC, I was in this environment I just could not interact with and I could not seem to explain it to anyone either. I was sitting at the computer trying to give my mind some place to go and it was the only place really where my mind could function because it was "different" and not connected to the trauma. I had never done anything like PC before, I had so little time in my life to do anything like PC before.