[Pierro]

Hello everyone. I am soooo pissed off at the moment. I have been taking lunesta for the last year but I dont like taking it because of the hangover effect that it has. Instead of the Lunesta I have been replacing 1 mg of Klonopin which works so well with me. I feel relaxed (Sunday morning is my "turnover day") The problem is that the doctor wont give me any more because he said I am on them too long and are highly addictive. Okay.. I get that but what is my alternative, lay awake all night looking at the clock until it hits 6:30. Get up for work feeling totally exausted from all the sleepless nights. I dont want my psychosis to come back but my g.p. brushes it off and says "try to relax". The next person that tells me to relax I am going to loose the plot. When you can feel yourself going down, and I can feel it, what do I do. My depression was adressed but my sleep issues never seemed to be taken seriously. Any suggestions without any refrence to "learn to relax" and other forms of concentration techniques because I cannot concentrate for more than 20 seconds.

[rockgal]

Originally Posted by Pierro

Hello everyone. I am soooo pissed off at the moment. I have been taking lunesta for the last year but I dont like taking it because of the hangover effect that it has. Instead of the Lunesta I have been replacing 1 mg of Klonopin which works so well with me. I feel relaxed (Sunday morning is my "turnover day") The problem is that the doctor wont give me any more because he said I am on them too long and are highly addictive. Okay.. I get that but what is my alternative, lay awake all night looking at the clock until it hits 6:30. Get up for work feeling totally exausted from all the sleepless nights. I dont want my psychosis to come back but my g.p. brushes it off and says "try to relax". The next person that tells me to relax I am going to loose the plot. When you can feel yourself going down, and I can feel it, what do I do. My depression was adressed but my sleep issues never seemed to be taken seriously. Any suggestions without any refrence to "learn to relax" and other forms of concentration techniques because I cannot concentrate for more than 20 seconds.

I am quite sure I will take a lot of flak for this, but I think benzos get a bad rap. They have been around for a long time, are well understood, and have minimal side effects for many folks. I find them infinitely more tolerable than, say, SSRIs.
I have been told by highly respected psycopharmacologists that they have patients that do well on them long term without the need for dose escalation. Do some folks run into problems with them? Sure. But that does not mean they are inappropriate for everyone. You might look for another doctor to discuss this issue with.

Another option for sleep - and the one that has worked the best for me - is low dose Seroquel. A quarter of a 25 mg tab works and does not leave me too drowsy in the morning. It feels much more natural than the official sleep meds I've tried (and hated) such as Ambien, Lunesta, and Rozerem. I usually need extremely low doses of meds, so you might need more than the 6.25 mg I take, but you can experiment to find a comfortable dose for yourself if you have a doctor willing to let you give it a go.

[-jimi-]

That is quite stupid since Lunesta is also seen as addictive. So why would it be OK? Because it is newer and more expensive I guess. Anyone seen what I see, that pricey meds are always seen as safe?

Grr..

[melania]

Benzos don't help me to fall asleep anymore if I don't overdose. Antipsychotics are strong sleeping drugs, it's almost imposible not to sleep except if you have schizofrenia or mania or something like that.

[Pierro]

Originally Posted by melania

Benzos don't help me to fall asleep anymore if I don't overdose. Antipsychotics are strong sleeping drugs, it's almost imposible not to sleep except if you have schizofrenia or mania or something like that.

Thanks for all your comments. I really appreciate them. I was on zyprexa and it never made me sleep, maybe there is something else wrong with me. I dont have a pdoc only my gp, and although he is very good and kind, he is not a pdoc, so I am at a loss really. I cant afford to go to a pdoc. So I dont know what to do.

[melania]

Originally Posted by Pierro

Thanks for all your comments. I really appreciate them. I was on zyprexa and it never made me sleep, maybe there is something else wrong with me. I dont have a pdoc only my gp, and although he is very good and kind, he is not a pdoc, so I am at a loss really. I cant afford to go to a pdoc. So I dont know what to do.

Zyprexa was the only one antipsychotic which didn't make me sleepy so I could take it at the day too.

[Altered Moment]

Like jimi said one argument you could use is that Lunesta is also addictive and only meant for short term use.

I take Klonopin for anxiety. It took me a year of begging to get it. First they said take this muscle relaxer but only take one as needed. well the problem was I had to take three before it would even touch the anxiety. so i told this pdoc this (not my regular pdoc he was off) and she say oh you are abusing them no more muscle relaxers. so she gives my hydroxyzines an antihistamine. didn't do ****. I have taken my share of nyquil and it works better than that but not for anxiety.

So finally after a year of begging by pdoc gave me klonopin and went against his bosses total anti benzo policy. My anxiety was horrible and klonipin has totally knocked it out. I take .5 mg in the morning and he said take .5 mg at night to help with sleep because I have major sleep issues to. I have not had to up my dose so far.

What they gave me for sleep along time ago and what has really helped the most is Remeron. It is an AD but I take it only for sleep. It works good. I only get 4 hours of good sleep out of it and then I start waking up again but four hours is four hours. Some people say it makes them feel hung over in the morning. Not me though.

The other one they use is trazadone. I have taken it on and off over the years. It will knock you *** out in 15 minutes which I didn't like. i only got four hours out of it.

I don't know what you diagnosis is or if they would give you remeron or trazadone they are both AD's.

You could try tylenol PM which is just an anti histamine. I don't really like taking it.

So I take benzo's for anxiety and I am a recovering addict so it is risky. I could not handle the anxiety though and finally went in there and told them it was unethical to not give me something we both know will work and he knew I was talking benzo's so I walked out with klonopin. I pray to god they won't cut me off because it works sooooo good. For sleep it might take a lot higher dose and may be riskier. i would suggest Remeron

Or you could rub some lavender oil all over yourself and put on relaxing music and meditate and practice your relaxation techniques.......lol
oh and add some chamomile tea and melatonin. j/k

[Yoda]

Phenergan (promethazine) has a mild sedative effect on me and it is not addictive. But I take it in addition to xanax so I can't sleep with only the phenergan.

I don't know what your diagnosis is. I am bipolar. Two of the meds for my bipolar also have a sedative effect: neurontin and clozapine.

[Pierro]

Originally Posted by zinco14532323

Like jimi said one argument you could use is that Lunesta is also addictive and only meant for short term use.

I take Klonopin for anxiety. It took me a year of begging to get it. First they said take this muscle relaxer but only take one as needed. well the problem was I had to take three before it would even touch the anxiety. so i told this pdoc this (not my regular pdoc he was off) and she say oh you are abusing them no more muscle relaxers. so she gives my hydroxyzines an antihistamine. didn't do ****. I have taken my share of nyquil and it works better than that but not for anxiety.

So finally after a year of begging by pdoc gave me klonopin and went against his bosses total anti benzo policy. My anxiety was horrible and klonipin has totally knocked it out. I take .5 mg in the morning and he said take .5 mg at night to help with sleep because I have major sleep issues to. I have not had to up my dose so far.

What they gave me for sleep along time ago and what has really helped the most is Remeron. It is an AD but I take it only for sleep. It works good. I only get 4 hours of good sleep out of it and then I start waking up again but four hours is four hours. Some people say it makes them feel hung over in the morning. Not me though.

The other one they use is trazadone. I have taken it on and off over the years. It will knock you *** out in 15 minutes which I didn't like. i only got four hours out of it.

I don't know what you diagnosis is or if they would give you remeron or trazadone they are both AD's.

You could try tylenol PM which is just an anti histamine. I don't really like taking it.

So I take benzo's for anxiety and I am a recovering addict so it is risky. I could not handle the anxiety though and finally went in there and told them it was unethical to not give me something we both know will work and he knew I was talking benzo's so I walked out with klonopin. I pray to god they won't cut me off because it works sooooo good. For sleep it might take a lot higher dose and may be riskier. i would suggest Remeron

Or you could rub some lavender oil all over yourself and put on relaxing music and meditate and practice your relaxation techniques.......lol
oh and add some chamomile tea and melatonin. j/k

Thanks so much.
You have not lost your sence of humor!

I have posted several times about my klonopin dependency problem. Benzos are not a long-term answer. They really aren't. It doesn't take long at all to build a tolerance to benzos, then a physical dependence, then the drug stops working and thennn....you get the "paradoxical anxiety/agitation" - the benzo actually makes you more anxious, agitated, and unable to sleep. Sooner or later anyone who uses benzos regularly will face the monkey on his/her back. Benzos are wonderful for short-term (like, 3 weeks) use. Even PRN (as needed) they cause your moods to go haywire.

They are many meds that help with sleep. Talk with your p-doc about it. You shouldn't have to suffer with poor sleep.

[rockgal]

Originally Posted by Sister Rags

I have posted several times about my klonopin dependency problem. Benzos are not a long-term answer. They really aren't. It doesn't take long at all to build a tolerance to benzos, then a physical dependence, then the drug stops working and thennn....you get the "paradoxical anxiety/agitation" - the benzo actually makes you more anxious, agitated, and unable to sleep. Sooner or later anyone who uses benzos regularly will face the monkey on his/her back. Benzos are wonderful for short-term (like, 3 weeks) use. Even PRN (as needed) they cause your moods to go haywire.

They are many meds that help with sleep. Talk with your p-doc about it. You shouldn't have to suffer with poor sleep.

I am sorry you have had a rough time with Klonopin. I disagree with you, however, that long-term benzo use is inappropriate for everyone. I have used Xanax for 7 or 8 years. I use only the amount needed, have never had a loss of efficacy or need for dose escalation. My dosage varies according to need but has not gone up overall during the time I've used it. It has not caused my moods to go haywire. When it wears off I do not have paradoxical anxiety or agitation. It truly can be used long term by some people without problems and may be better than other alternatives.

I think with pysch meds, it's important to recognize that we are all very different, and what works for one person is not suitable for another - and vice versa.

rockgal, what would happen if you went off the xanax, as in, decreased it for, say, 2 weeks then stopped it altogether? Do that, then we'll talk.
I'm not trying to be mean. My point regarding benzos is that they are fabulous as long as you're on them AND have not yet built up a tolerance or dependency. Going off them is the problem. You really can't know what your situation is until you stop taking the benzo.

This is an overview, but there's a lopt of info online about the horrors of benzo w/d.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodi...rawal_syndrome

[rockgal]

Originally Posted by Sister Rags

rockgal, what would happen if you went off the xanax, as in, decreased it for, say, 2 weeks then stopped it altogether? Do that, then we'll talk.

I have gone from 0.5 mg to even 1 mg per day usage during long periods of high anxiety to zero (yes zero) within days when my stress levels have done down. With absolutely no problem, no withdrawal, no ill effects.

I do not doubt your experience. Do not doubt mine. Do not use your experience as proof that everyone will have the same difficulties. Some may share your experience. Others may have the same response I do.

[rockgal]

Originally Posted by Sister Rags

rockgal, what would happen if you went off the xanax, as in, decreased it for, say, 2 weeks then stopped it altogether? Do that, then we'll talk.
I'm not trying to be mean. My point regarding benzos is that they are fabulous as long as you're on them AND have not yet built up a tolerance or dependency. Going off them is the problem. You really can't know what your situation is until you stop taking the benzo.

This is an overview, but there's a lopt of info online about the horrors of benzo w/d.
Benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Furthermore, I did take Klonopin for a long time and although I never needed dose escalation, I did need to taper off of that drug. When I decided to come off of it, it took me about a month to taper down, and I had minimal discomfort and no real disruption to my life. Benzo withdrawal is NOT necessarily that bad for everyone. I know it can be a real horror for some folks. But that is not a given at all. Everyone is different. If one has difficulties, an experienced psychiatrist can help with managing it.

[-jimi-]

I have taken the same benzo for a number of years and never increased dosage. Actually I have cut back if you compare with the start. My doc said all people do not build tolerance.

I wish I had faith that an experienced p-doc could handle my benzo w/d. I've been on k-pin for 20 years with 3 very unsuccessful attempts at withdrawal. No p-doc worked any magic for me, because there is no magic pill or substance that can help ease benzo w/d. Statistically, most people have tolerance and withdrawal problems that are hellish and disabling.

You've gone off the xanax then have returned to taking it. I would like to hear from someone who has been on long-term benzo use and successfully withdrawn and stayed off benzos. Benzo w/d is not bad for everyone, but for most people benzo w/d's are likened to heroin w/d's, except that heroin w/d does pass after a couple of weeks and is very seldom life-threatening. And there are meds to replace the opiate. Benzo w/d sickness can last for years and can be life-threatening. Look, why do you think most p-docs don't want to prescribe benzos? There are reasons. they're not just trying to be cruel to their patients, ya know?

[-jimi-]

I doubt I'd be alive if it wasn't for benzos but I've met several docs who say death is to be preferred over addiction!!

Like.... seriously??? And I'm the crazy one??????

[rockgal]

Originally Posted by Sister Rags

I wish I had faith that an experienced p-doc could handle my benzo w/d. I've been on k-pin for 20 years with 3 very unsuccessful attempts at withdrawal. No p-doc worked any magic for me, because there is no magic pill or substance that can help ease benzo w/d. Statistically, most people have tolerance and withdrawal problems that are hellish and disabling.

You've gone off the xanax then have returned to taking it. I would like to hear from someone who has been on long-term benzo use and successfully withdrawn and stayed off benzos. Benzo w/d is not bad for everyone, but for most people benzo w/d's are likened to heroin w/d's, except that heroin w/d does pass after a couple of weeks and is very seldom life-threatening. And there are meds to replace the opiate. Benzo w/d sickness can last for years and can be life-threatening. Look, why do you think most p-docs don't want to prescribe benzos? There are reasons. they're not just trying to be cruel to their patients, ya know?

I've never had problems getting benzos prescribed by my pdocs, nor have pdocs I've seen for consults blinked at the fact that I've taken them. And these have been among the best pdocs in the areas I have lived (major metro areas), one being a national expert. So not all pdocs are benzophobic - many do prescribe them if they think they are a good choice for a particular patient. It wasn't my idea to take them. They were considered a good option for me. I find low dose benzos far easier to deal with than SSRI's, which are problematic for me in a number of ways (I know they're fantastic for many people).

I really am sorry you've had such a rough ride, and I certainly believe your account of your experience. I do question your generalizations (statistically, most...). They seem overly broad and are not backed up by bias-free, peer reviewed literature.

Again, I certainly believe benzo discontinuation can be a real problem for some people. However, my pdocs have been of the opinion that these are well-understood, well-vetted drugs that can work very well for long term use for some people. I am an example of someone who has difficulty tolerating side effects of many meds, does tolerate benzos very well, and has very little difficulty getting off drugs (builds up little tolerance or dependence). I'm also very sensitive, which means I get a lot of effect out of a low dose. So Xanax works out well for me, and I feel comfortable that if my stress and anxiety dwindled even further, I could stop altogether with no ill effects. If I don't need it, I can go days at a clip without it, with no problems. Your experience is obviously very different and very miserable, and definitely underscores that there is a huge, huge range of responses to drugs, which makes pdocs' jobs pretty challenging I think.

Yeah, klonopin was a miracle for me for many, many years. And truthfully, back when benzos appeared on the scene there weren't any similar med options. But addiction/dependence is a terrifying reality to live with. I don't think that death is better, but I'd place bets that some p-docs and neurologists have seen cases of addiction that don't look pretty at all. The last time I tried to come off k-pin...well, life wasn't looking very promising, that's for sure. Since then, I've been facing some real hell with this klonopin thing.

[Altered Moment]

Originally Posted by jimi...

I doubt I'd be alive if it wasn't for benzos but I've met several docs who say death is to be preferred over addiction!!

Like.... seriously??? And I'm the crazy one??????

Well jimi we could argue about addiction and dependence again but...

Maybe death would be preferable to heroin or meth amphetamine addiction in someone who is an addict. I know when I was addicted to meth at the end I would rather have been dead and might have been better off.

Taking benzo's as jimi is is not worse than death.

Like I said earlier I am taking .5 mg klonopin twice a day. Totally wiped out my anxiety and no increase....yet.....cross my fingers. And I am and recovering addict and i know the risks. The thing is nothing else they tried worked on my anxiety. If I had to live with the anxiety and paranoia it was causing I would probably whack myself, game over anyway. So I am taking the risk.

And SisterRags I would like to know all these meds that work so great for sleep. I think I know what they are but there are not a ton of them and some have real problems. Like Ambien and Lunesta which are a form of benzo and addictive and can have some very bizzare dangerous side effects. That doesn't leave many.

Generalizations...I dunno....actually, the first person I heard who brought out the issue of k-pin addiction, etc. was Stevie Nicks, back in the 1990's. A family member of mine was a roadie & wound up working for Fleetwood Mac. Stevie Nicks had been prescribed k-pin for anxiety and she ended up with a bad addiction to it. She told my family member that the k-pin had wrecked her life, that it was worse than any street drug she'd ever taken (she'd had a major cocaine problem at some point). I mean...here's a person who has all the money and connections known to humankind to deal with her prescription med issues, and she had gone through HELL with trying to come off benzos. She told my family member that she'd written about the k-pin/benzo thing in a book, and there was some stuff online that she (Stevie) had written warning people not to start taking benzos.

My family member told me about her conversation with Stevie, and it was the first time I'd heard of someone else having a serious life-altering problem with k-pin. So I started digging around and found out that benzos are often extremely dangerous because of the tolerance/dependence thing. I found it rather cruel and for sure ironic, because I've never been into street drugs and here I was (am) with this huge addiction problem.

[rockgal]

Originally Posted by Sister Rags

Yeah, klonopin was a miracle for me for many, many years. And truthfully, back when benzos appeared on the scene there weren't any similar med options. But addiction/dependence is a terrifying reality to live with. I don't think that death is better, but I'd place bets that some p-docs and neurologists have seen cases of addiction that don't look pretty at all. The last time I tried to come off k-pin...well, life wasn't looking very promising, that's for sure. Since then, I've been facing some real hell with this klonopin thing.

Oh, I don't doubt that they've seen some pretty tough cases. I'm sure if they could figure out the physiological differences that allow person X to transition off without too much misery while person Y goes through utter torture, well, that would be hugely valuable. I definitely *felt* my Klonopin taper, but I found it extremely tolerable and relatively short-lived. I set the pace myself depending upon how I felt, and it ended up taking about a month. I went off Paxil cold turkey with only a few days of mildly irritating head zaps, while other people suffer longer. I'm really grateful that Xanax works out for me so cleanly because I am so ridiculously prone to side effects and feeling overmedicated that I really don't have other good, flexible options for managing generalized anxiety.

What kinds of strategies have your doctors tried for helping you ditch the Klonopin? And in the meantime, are you wishing to stop it because it causes you side effects?

zinco, I don't have any great answers and I'm sure not trying to be anything but helpful with regard to your sleep issues. I've been given lunesta, ambien, and the other similar one (can't recall the name - another "thank you" to benzos for causing severe cognitive/memory probs for me) - I've had severe sleep issues for nearly 30 years. I take Seroquel and Remeron at this time and they help me sleep. The k-pin no longer makes me sleepy. Hey, if benzos work for you GREAT. I'm not here to argue with anybody. I am a strong believer in the power of psych meds because without them I wouldn't be alive. But mental illness and the drugs used to treat my mental illness have most definitely robbed me of major pieces of life. I've been at this game of trying to combat my mental illness for over half a century. Forgive me if I'm a little worn down. When I hear someone in their 20';s, 30's., even 40's talk about how amazing benzos are I can't help but worry and warn. What good is experience if I don't share it? But, whatever. We all do what we have to do to get through and, hopefully, to have some decent quality of life.

[ZehR]

The benzo discussion again..

I don't see why my pdoc took me off the clonazepam 1mg. He's very anti benzo. I have been studying benzos and reading stories on them for over a year. I know what I'm in for and I don't get addicted. I went cold turkey and nothing happened. Just the same anxiety as when I didn't take them.

I can easily stop a panic attack on my own. Last panic attack I've had was years ago but its only stopped right before I pass out so I would consider them to be severe anxiety attacks. It would be nice to have a prn benzo. I wouldn't take it long term because that's just ridiculous.

So ya I can't have any atm which is really stupid. I think that I have a high tolerance to anxiety because I'm usually hyper anyways so its just always there and I try to ignore it. I wouldn't care much about my anxiety attacks if it wasn't for the hyper awareness of my heart and how I could get heart failure.

I'm not going to even bother asking for anything anymore from my pdoc because I just end up getting humiliated and anxious talking about it.

Benzos are basically the only thing that will help me sleep during very severe anxiety attacks where I stay up for days and most sleeping pills are benzo derivatives anyways so there's really nothing that we can do.

And I'm not afraid of getting addicted because I know what I'm doing and I have good self control when It comes to: Suffer through anxiety or.. get addicted. I mean it's hard for 99% of people but not for me.

Well, one HUGE thing to consider is diagnosis. I've been bipolar since I was a teen, and had severe GAD/OCD since I was a little kid. One of the probs with benzos is that they cause mood swings. Ack. Bad news for me, because my biggest challenge is battling mixed states (depression/agitation/anxiety/mania all happening at once).

No, I have no more side effects from the k-pin. Those stopped years ago. The bad effects come only when I drop the dose, even by a tiny sliver. Starts out with weird brain zaps - onto flu-like symptoms - onto puking - onto HORRIBLE fear/psychosis/agitated anxiety...yes, at that time death IS preferable. Anyone seen the movie "Candy"? The part where they're trying to w/d from the heroin? Well, the k-pin w/d is, for me, that and worse because of the psychotic s-hit.

The reason I need to go off, or at least cut back, is because I'm experiencing what's known as "paradoxical anxiety" - i.e., the k-pin is causing me to feel anxious....it's kind of like working in reverse, due to damage to brain receptors from being on the k-pin for so many years.

I've seen about 30 p-docs in my life. Out of those, about 12 have told me I need to decrease/go off of the k-pin. They say this: "Decrease it very slowly over a few months. You will feel worse at first, but eventually you'll stabilize." Yeah. Right. The "feel worse" means, for me a psychotic-suicidal-depressed-anxious-agitated-INSANITY. When I've asked the parade of p-docs for a med to HELP me come off the k-pin they tell me there "isn't really one".

Welcome to 20 years on a benzo

Anyway, I'm getting down even thinking about this. So have a good evening, you all