[curlyq]

Hello!
I just thought I'd post about something that I haven't seen mentioned here. I lost someone to an overdose of depression medicines and I think that the doctors need to closely monitor people who are severely depressed. These people are not always hospitalized. I refused hospitalization once because it was impossible for me to do so.

When I had suicidal ideation the doctor only gave me small amounts of medicine and I had to go back often. I think it was a good thing she did that but I don't know how many other doctors are doing that.

Another thing about these medicines. Quite often they work for some time and quit working. It happened to me many times. In fact, I'd become very tired after awhile and more depressed and increasing them would only increase the tiredness and depression. I know of many others who have had the same experience. That's why I think it's important to have other solutions to use if the medicines are not working or quit working or if none of them ever worked. There are some who have never gotten relief from antidepressants. Then they need to rely on something else of their choice-maybe support groups or therapy alone. I have tried just about all of the antidepressants (seriously) and with little relief.

I am going to be going to a new place that is supposed to have a great program for mood disorders and I hope they can find a medicine(s) that will help me. I have other dx besides depression, too. I have not found relief for those dx s either. I am not alone in this I'm sure. I have tried many many meds for many years. I have learned to do things to make myself feel better like distract myself from the defeating thoughts when I can. Or to try to treat myself extra special instead of beating up on myself. Exercise used to help me but I got out of the habit. It's been too hot here lately to ride my bike outside.

Having a pet to care for really has helped me to stay alive and get up every day to care for him.

On the other hand these drugs have helped many and I am glad for that. I wish it happend for me that way. All I am saying is that sometimes some people cannot find relief in them. I am one of them. Maybe that will change for me. I guess I feel disheartened at the moment from my own personal experience.

I am looking forward to going to the new place but after my experiences I am a bit skeptical. Yet, I'm willing to try again.

"Things work out best for the people
Who make the best out of the way things work out."
--- Author Unknown ---

[Caledonian]

The strategy you described - prescribing only small doses of potentially dangerous antidepressants - is actually the one that doctors are urged to use with depressed patients. They don't always use it, since if the patient isn't actually at risk of killing themselves, it can sometimes cause problems with the doctor-patient relationship (patient resents implication that they'll kill themselves, patient inconvenienced by need for constant refills, patient feels doctor doesn't trust them, etc.).

Most people habituate to antidepressants after enough time. Sometimes, they still feel depressed while on the drugs because their effectiveness has diminished, but when they stop taking them they confuse the withdrawal effects for a return of the depression and assume that they'd feel that way without the meds. I personally think that medications should only be used as temporary aids to other forms of treatment (as 'crutches', without implying the negative connotation of that term). You've pointed out another reason not to rely on meds. to cope with a depression - they tend not to work indefinitely.

Medications help most of the people who take them; if a method works for you, use it. If you can't find a medication that works, then treatment hasn't failed - it's just become somewhat more difficult.

Hey, if nothing else, your hopeful attitude is a good sign!

I hope things improve for you...

[bows respectfully]
-Caledonian

[oregon]

Prescribing medications in small doses and requiring return visits for refills is a very necessary part of treating the suicidal patient, but this may not always work. My physician tried this, having me come weekly for visits and giving me only enough for that period of time. The problems was that I kept the medications, stock piled them, adding them to other things that I already possessed and then took them all at once. He felt terrible and placed part of the blame on himself, but the truth is that I am not stupid. I researched the medications and knew what I was doing while I stock piled them.

Unfortunately there is no way a physician can stop a suicidal person from attempting, except immediate hospitalization at least until the crisis passes. Many times the practioners does not know of the patients intentions therefore preventing them from stopping the process. This is just another person who gets hurt when a individual chooses to end there live.

As for finding the proper medications it is never an easy task. Fortunately they are developing better and improved drugs everyday. I know for myself, my physician had to contend with two things after my attempt. One finding a medication that would work, and second finding one that do no harm if swallowed in large quantities. There are anti-depressants that have a very low potential for death from overdose.

Medication therapy is never easy, they are expensive and have many side effects. They can alter the personality for the good or for the bad. Adverse reations are common, and many times the effects are bad enough that the patient is unable to fulfill activities of daily living, not that the severly depressed do this well anyway.

I hope that you are able to find a combination of things that will allow you to feel better. Medication is not always the answer and do not always work for some people. Keep thinking good thoughts about this new place. Part of recovery is finding the strength and will within yourself to sustain another therapy or medication, or another change in life.

Good luck and best wishes.

[splash]

here is my experience with meds (well, part of my experience, otherwise this would be a very long post

i live alone, so that has to be considered. unless you are in a hospital, or similar setting, and someone else is handing you your medication and is watching you take it, there really is no way of making sure things like oregon mentioned are not happening, like just filling the prescriptions, not taking the pills, and stockpiling. an individual really has to want to get better, to endure the first few days of side effects, and to wait out the 3 to 4 weeks it takes for the medicine to take effect in order to take the medication as it is prescribed.

my current psyche doc does not know of past overdoses (didn't want to bore her with the details), but she is aware of the possibility, asks me regularly if i am feeling suicidal, and makes herself or colleagues available to talk with if needed.

i am currently on my fourth month of using effexor xr. i'm at a relatively low dose, but it seems to be working (fingers crossed). i never took meds correctly before, either not taking them or taking too much, but this time is different. maybe it's my age, maybe it's the new people i've surrounded myself with, but i really wanted to get "better" this time.

i think that's the key. the person really has to want to get better before they start taking their treatment, whatever it may be, or their life seriously.

just me,

splash

[curlyq]

Lot of good points made. Yes, Caladonian, we need other ways to cope, too, when the meds fail, as they are known to do at times. We do become habituated to them sometimes. I think the person's life at stake is more important than the doctor worrying about trust in the case of potential suicide. Later, the potentially suicidal person may thank the doctor for being very cautious. I have someone to thank for being that way.

Oregon, a person can fool a doctor but then I didn't even go to one when I tried to commit suicide once ( I tried it more than once). Like you said, when someone wants to do it they may not be able to be stopped. Hopefully, they will reach out to someone and tell them of their intentions. There may be those who didn't originally get the drugs to commit suicide but thought of it later, too. I think the idea of prescribing drugs that can do no harm is great. Sometimes, though, I think not even prescribing for someone who is suicidal may be a good idea, too. But instead, giving them intensive therapy and hospitalization may be better. Then sometimes a person cannot be hospitalized for some reason. When someone hides his intentions it is not easy to see, too. I know these things are complicated and there is no easy answer.

Personally, I tried suicide many times and it did not work-as you see I'm still here. I don't try it any more and don't think I will ever again but who knows for sure on that one for the future. When I feel that way I try to get help because I believe somehow things can get better. I'm still waiting on that, too....

Splash, I'm glad you and others have had a good experience with the psychotropics. Sounds like you have a good grip on what you are doing for yourself now and that's commendable.

I took the medicines for years at times with good results at times and then they stopped working for me. I did nothing wrong to bring on the change. Increasing the dose did not help either. Paxil and many others worked and then stopped working. I always take them as prescribed. Many medicines did not work for me as they would give me anxiety that would set off other symptoms, and then I'd have to take other drugs to combat that. The combinations would cause me big memory problems, sleeping too much, more depression, weight gain (50#). I could go on and on and on about this but I hope I get my point accross with just this. I went through 7 years of trying singular medicines, and combinations and giving them plenty of time-months. At times, I had intolerable side effects that lasted the entire time and I still cooperated and took them just as they were prescribed. I took one drug that kept me coughing and choking all the time and I wanted to get better so bad that I kept taking it for months and months! It never did the job. I also acquired seious liver test problems. I consulted with the doctor about side effects and how drugs quit many times. There are many others I've talked to who cannot either tolerate a lot of these drugs or the drugs have stopped working and who have had the same experiences that I have had. And they are people who wanted to get better, like me and you and the rest. Like I already said, though, they work well for others. I have always taken my therapy and my life very seriously and have been told I am a very cooperative person/client in rx/therapy. I am one who was told I might always need medicines for depression. I don't know that for sure, though. I have done allright at times without the medicines. I may or may not find another drug therapy that works and that worries me. I have symptoms of not being able to make any changes in my life right now and feeling helpless and hopeless. I try to keep busy and talk to people on a community mental health line and that helps. I just keep plugging away. But, I need to find other ways to keep coping, too, when the meds don't do it for me. Take care all.

"Things work out best for the people
Who make the best out of the way things work out."
--- Author Unknown ---

[oregon]

I understand the difficulty that you have had with your medications, for I have had the same problems too. The first couple that we tried were SSRI's, the new, all talked about class of anti-depressants that physicians think are great. I found that they had many, many side effects that would not allow me to be functional.

Then we tried the anti-anxiety medications but they made me feel like I was on a roller coaster all the time. Nauseating, dizzing times when I could not get out of bed I felt so sick. Then the atypical anti-depressants with little chance of suicide success, but these always made me feel ill.

When we finally found one that worked my physician upped the dose until we were maxed out. But the more I took the worse I felt. Eventually I stopped taking them all together but this caused a decompensation that almost ended in another suicide attempt. Luckily I have a good physician who has allowed me to research and determine for myself what I would like to do. Know I take a minimal dose most of the week and then a couple extra 2 days a week to keep the levels theraputic. This has been working well, though I know that eventually I will become tolerant to this medication and we will have to restart the process all over again.

You talk about the medication ceasing to work. This is not an uncommon problem with medications whether they are anti-depressants or other class of drugs. Tolerance and dependence are common problems that are not easy to conter-act. If you take something long enough, eventually your body will require more to create the same effect. There is really no way around the problem.

As for compliance, most patients, whether they have medical or psychological afflictions, have problems with compliance. I too have been told that I will have to continue with the medications for at least the next 2 years. The thought of this is sickening, having to think about it everyday, plan my meals around my medication therapy, and knowing the consequences of not being compliant. I work with patients every day and before all this I could not understand why they would miss doses and forget medications. Now I understand the time consuming horror of being on daily medication for a long period of time.

I know that you have not found something that works at this time, but I truly believe in the future you will again find something that will help you get through the day just a little bit easier. Never give up trying since this is the downfall of all depressed people, giving up that is. I will be thinking about you and I hope that you find the peace that you are seeking.

Oregon

[curlyq]

Hi Oregon,
I appreciate your wishes for me. That made me feel good! After the last combo. of medicines not working for me, and singularly not working either, I stopped taking the medicines in February. I gave them plenty of time to no avail. I told my doctor the effects and how nothing seemed to be helping any more. He was overworked, overbooked and not helping me much any more to say the least. So, I stopped going to him. The last meds I took were the icing on the cake. After I went off the drugs I was feeling alright until about June when an especially stressful thing happened that triggered another bout. I will be going to the new program in a few weeks and will hang on. This place and program were highly recommended by people who also had my experiences with the medicines. They told me it's a great place. When I called they were very nice and it's not too long a wait. They also told me I could see a therapist to talk if I feel too horribly before my appointment. That was good to hear.

I've also been living under circumstances that are not good for me and hope to be able to make some major decisions after I get some help. I realize it will take time. I'm holding on to hope and it helps to know that others care and know what this is like and are trudging along the same path. I'm glad that you found something that is working and I hope it will be one that won't quit on you. The only antidepressants I haven't tried are the MAOs and I'm afraid of them. I have been doing a bit of research, too, and have a drug I want to ask about. I hope I get a doctor who will hear me like yours does. I'm thinking that a support group might help me, too. I think there are some for people with depression yet I'm not up to that now. Thanks again for your post-it made me feel less alone and crazy.

"Things work out best for the people
Who make the best out of the way things work out."
--- Author Unknown ---

[DOBY]

I think it was splash who said that you really have to take this seriously to get better. Not that any of us aren't taking this seriously enough. I was first diagnosed in May and have been on meds since them. I was first on prozac and I am now on luvox. I have been so frustrated with this whole experience that I have recently stopped taking the meds. I finally refilled my prescription but just keep on "forgetting" to take them. I want to get better more than anything but I still have a lot of anger and I guess this is my way of rebelling. I keep on sabotaging my recovery because I think deep down I might not want to get better. Maybe I want to die. I don't really know. I am very confused with the way all this works. My therapist knows I am suicidal yet she doesn't realize that I have a months worth of luvox. I don't know enough about luvox maybe you can't overdose from it. I got my wisdom tooth pulled recently and I wasprescribed vicadin for the pain. I felt like jelly whenever I took it. It felt so great I fantasized about taking more than my prescribed dose. So I decided to save them. I would hold the pain from the wisdom tooth because I didn't want to waste the vicadin. I never took anymore since I was saving them but I did feel guilty about it. I knew that it was a bad thing so I decided to tell my therapist and her answer was quick and cold. She said "you know, I am probably not the right person to talk to this about. Maybe you should ask the doctor who prescibed them." I was shocked......how could she suggest I speak to my oral surgeon about my suicidal thoughts? I felt very alone because I trusted her and I thought she could suggest something constructive. She could have suggested I give her the pills and she could destroy them, but she didn't. Instead I am walking around with a bottle of vicadin in my purse. For some reason I can't bring myself to throw them out. I was also pretty shocked that my oral surgeon would prescribe these strong pain killers. Well I was in a lot of pain physically burt before he prescribed them he asked if I was allergic to anything. I said no but I did say that I was currently on meds just in case he prescribed something that would interefere with the luvox. I told him I am on luvox...you would think that it might be a little dangerous to prescribe something so strong to someone who is taking a drug for depression. My body is disgusted by all the pills I have had to take in the past few weeks. Thank you for listening.

[splash]

hi everybuddy,

i just woke up, so my brain's a little fuzzy, but i wanted to post anyway.

i can, i'm looking for this word, sympathize? with everyone. it's like, i know exactly what you mean. for example, i'm on a med now that i've taken since may, but before then, i've been on probably every single antidepressant, several antipsychotics, and a few antianxiety meds. i think the only antidepressant i haven't been on is prozac. why, i don't know. i'm telling you this cause i want you to know that i know how frustrating it is. i've been on and off meds, mostly off, since 1986. it is a very long road on this journey toward better mental health.

and i know about stockpiling. i've been doing it for years, and for some reason, i can't bring myself to throw anything out. that's a lot of pills. i used to keep them thinking i'd need them someday, you know, when i no longer wanted to be around. but now that i'm feeling better suicidal ideation is just a memory. not since i've been on this last med.

before i started taking getting better seriously, i was very close to death. i thought about it constantly. i thought, i have nothing to lose since i don't have anything anyways. no family, really. no friends. i had a new job that, at the time, i thought i didn't like. new co-workers that i didn't think liked me. but once i started feeling better, and could interact more with others, and i started to enjoy my job, and i picked up some new hobbies (photography and feeding the ducks , i no longer thought of death. i was more interested in other people and their well-being than thinking about myself and how depressed i was, because i guess, i was no longer depressed. and that in itself was scary because it was all ever knew for a very long time (my whole life).

one time, i took zoloft and that seemed to work, until i got manic. so taking meds for me is a crap shoot. now that i'm on effexor xr, once in awhile i think about the possiblity that they will stop working. but then i think, what if they actually aren't working and it's been a placebo effect, and the reason i'm really feeling better is that my perspective on life has changed? (i think that because i don't want to believe totally that medicine can make much difference, but i don't want to find out by not taking it.)

well, i've spewed enough. thanks for listening, and take care everybuddy.

splash

[curlyq]

Hi Doby,
Thanks for your contribution. I read it earlier but was really tired at the time and thus didn't reply. I took some time off from here, too. I, too, have had other doctors prescribe stuff that could've hurt me when combined with the other medicines I was on. Vicoden was one of them. I was prescribed it for pain when I pulled my back out last year. Under it's effects combined with my meds., I recall lying on the couch and talking to myself as I was going in and out of consciousness. I was in outer space for awhile on that. I don't think I was asked if I was on anything else either. I guess I have a pretty strong constitution because I'm still here after that episode when I was on about 5 other medicines.

That was strange that a therapist would want you to talk to the oral surgeon about suicidal thoughts. Maybe you were misunderstood? I don't know but the therapist should have addressed suicidal thoughts. I would not be very happy about that if it were me.

I understand your frustration with the process of adjusting to medicines and feeling that therapy isn't doing you any good. I have felt that way before and also have felt rebellious at one time. When I look back, I think I should have found another counselor because, in my case, it was not working. I stayed with the therapist much longer than I should have. We really were not a good match as therapist and client. I just wanted to prove I could stick with it. I did that twice and think it was a waste of time for me. I liked the therapist even though he was not very nice to me and he was very burned out. Now when I see those indications I first try to address the things that bother me with the therapist and if things do not go better after that, I'm outta there!

All I can say is that I hope things will go better for you. cq

"Things work out best for the people
Who make the best out of the way things work out."
--- Author Unknown ---

[curlyq]

Thanks Splash. You hit on a lot of good points and we're all in the same boat, for sure. It is a rough road but were not alone. One day we feel on top of the world and the next day in the gutter. Hopefully, though, we will find the things that will help us feel our best. take care all.

"Things work out best for the people
Who make the best out of the way things work out."
--- Author Unknown ---