Facing the 2X4 Today

Just to make clear: the lack of disclosure and deceit were all in MY family, not in T's family. She never told me anything about her upbringing.

Sky, I hope you do not mind me continuing to hijack your threat to ask hankster something.

Hankster, I'm curious-- but only if you want to share-- I was struck by this self-disclosure by your T and your prompting of it and I remembered the back-and-forth bit we had in a thread I started a week or so ago. I think you felt like my T's disclosure of his childhood trauma of his Dad beating his Mom was too much, but you are actively seeking out what I would consider a more personal disclosure (to me) about how your T relates to his or her intimate partners.

I am not trying to say you are wrong in any way, I'm just trying to figure something out for myself. I don't mean to imply that you are wrong in your assessment about what makes you uncomfortable (that's even silly for me to suggest, as this is clearly something individual) or that there is anything wrong in what your T disclosed. Also, I don't think that you said to me that there was something wrong with what my T disclosed. All this is to preamble that I don't mean to be all lawyerly and cross-examining you, and feel free to ignore this if it isn't something you're interested in discussing any further.

I guess because much of my work involves people who have been traumatized (usually by family members, as adults and/or children), I'm fairly politicized, in a way, about disclosures of childhood histories of abuse. Part of being abused almost always includes silencing of the victim-- if not literal silencing, then at least the silencing of emotions. I feel that disclosures of abuse work against both this personal (by the abuser) and our cultural silencing of abuse (nobody wants to hear about it) and that, ultimately, there would be a lot less violence in the world if people talked openly about it.

I remember something from a year or two at a community group that I frequent, who meet on saturdays to knit and eat. One woman started talking about being assaulted by her first husband many years ago, how she got out of it, how it had changed her. You could just see the opening up of other people occurring as she was talking. She probably didn't fit anyone's image of a battered woman-- high educated, very successful in her profession, very strong, a leader in her field. Some people followed that up with some disclosures of their own or people they were close to. It was an incredible normalizing of being abused that just seemed to strip away this underlying cultural belief that abuse is shameful and those who are victimized should never mention it. To me, disclosing a history of abuse is an act that is not personal in the sense that it is not about what the victim did, it was about what the perpetrator did, and the perpetrator should carry all the shame and silencing that usually people (including ourselves) assign to the victim.

Maybe it's just because of the work I do, where people tell me their traumas all the time, that I don't feel that disclosures of trauma are very personal.

And in my session this week, I was able to ask T about my perceptions of him when he did disclose to me. And, I'm not sure I mentioned it before, but he told me that his father was violent towards him as a kid probably in the first session I had with him 5 or so months ago. This wasn't new information, as those who beat their kids often beat their spouses, especially if the spouse is trying to protect the kids. But when he said that the cops had hauled his Dad out in handcuffs after beating his Mom, the expression on his face got all jumbled up and it seemed like he got pulled back into some emotional place and it took him a couple of minutes to find his way back and center himself. My guess is that that memory just evoked a bigger emotional response than speaking more generically about past trauma.

So I asked him about his emotional reaction and getting pulled away, to check my "read" on what was happening. At first he responded to my question in a way that was explaining why he was still impacted by his past, at times. Then he gave me a couple of examples from his present life when he'd been impacted by his past. I thought maybe that was TMI. He apologized for disappearing, and I said I wasn't sorry, that it made me think about why I felt like I *had* to check out whether he had really checked out. It was a very open and honest exchange and there was some more there, but it was all pretty comfortable and good. He ended our session by asking me if he had said or done anything that I wanted to check in about, which really validated my sense that it is okay to ask him about anything.

I guess I have one final parting thought about exchanges in self disclosure in therapy. It does feel like to me that his disclosures in general make me feel more comfortable about making my own. That there is more of a partnership in the process when he relates to me in that way from his own experience. From this angle, I think it would draw a pretty large circle around what I'm comfortable with. Things that would be over the line would be some kind of disclosure around experiences of sexuality or anything that fell in the category of making me feel like he was treating me like an intimate partner or potential date or something like that.

I think about the maybe TMI disclosures he made this week, and about the benefits and costs of saying something along the lines of "say this, but don't say that". I think it will chill the discussion in a way that wouldn't be productive to me. I think I don't necessarily need a lot of control over what happens in therapy because I feel safe and open. That perhaps I'm in a place where I can take what's offered to me and if it doesn't work, just leave it there. Processing every single uncomfortable moment in therapy makes me want to jump out a window. I think I could benefit by being pushed out of my comfort zone and not feeling the need to react as often.

I'm not exactly clear about what I'm getting at here, so I should probably just leave it alone. But I'm also struck when you reported your feelings in response to your T's personal disclosure:

"Me: When you said that, the smile disappeared from my face.
T: Yes, you have said, and I know, people are worried about anger from their T's. What does that mean to you?
Me: No, it was a FAKE smile that disappeared. It's a relief! My muscles are relaxed now! It was a smile I had to have to deflect / defend all the time, to prove everything was all right when it wasn't. I also sighed from the top of my chest, like from my heart."

What that says to me is that your T's honest disclosure about his (?) difficulty in interpersonal relationships brought authenticity to your ability to relate to her in that moment. And that's kind of what I'm getting at, that one of my goals is to allow my T to freely "talk back" to me, including the disclosures that result from that, in the service of allowing me to be who I really am in session.

Anne

As usual, excellent questions. Man, I love this place! Okay! First, NOT THAT IT MATTERS (in my mind, anyway, but that's due to the bizarre parenting where dad was mom and mom was I dunno what) I'm a she, 59, and T's a he, 66. I've been in and out of therapy all my adult life (mostly in), and with this T for 5 years.

I would say the differences between our (Hank & Anne) situations are these:

I wasn't "prompting him for self-disclosure" as much as I was actually asking him to marry me, and he was actually telling me why it was not a good idea. I have a bad habit of asking "bad" people to marry me - so why not do it in a safe place, in therapy? We mimic everything else.

He has previously answered me, when I have made suggestive comments, "I can be your therapist or your boyfriend, but not both, and since I was your therapist first, I can never be your boyfriend." I was like, that is SO NOT what I'm asking. And that sounds like a line a therapist who WANTS to be your boyfriend would use! I said they should do a follow-up study on that.

So this is why I stressed beforehand to him the "suspension of belief" as if in theatre, and that I was not looking for DETAILS - what happened between you and X? And that I felt protective of him, not wanting him to feel he had to give of himself. He really did not say much more than what I wrote, literally maybe a sentence or two more. He did NOT, for example say, "and my anger or depression manifests in my doing xyz."

For him simply to say he has these emotions is a lot to me, because nobody talked to me at home, they didn't tell me anything. I had to guess. "OF COURSE I'M MAD! WHAT DO YOU THINK?!" And that only came long after whatever had happened. Well, I don't know unless you tell me. Somebody said phlegmatic this week. Durn tootin'.

Another difference: I don't really look at him. Not like you do. I would not be able to tell if he were here or on Pluto. We both tell each other if we are feeling teary or choked up or whatever. Something just bothered me about that between you and your T, I don't know why. I mean, I AM looking AT him, but maybe he has a poker face!

I knew about his mother from a magazine article, that was the main reason I chose him, so that was not a new disclosure. With this revelation, yes, I feel I finally know him, but that probably says more about me than him. And I decided to share it with PC because it was his ADMISSION of his anger that finally made me feel unafraid. I asked sky recently, they were so strict, do you ever get the feeling they were faking it? My mother often laughed at me for being so easily fooled. I still am. Oh - but you are not, you are vigilant. I guess I want you to feel you can release that vigilance while you're in therapy, a priori? (is that the right phrase?) but maybe that's part of the work you need to do? Again, just impressions.

Yeah, to say YOUR goal is to ALLOW your T to talk freely back to you, in the service of your therapy - a little too much like you're trying to fix him. We're BOTH trying to fix them, we're both trying to fix mummy. The question is, how aware are THEY, how in control are they, of what is going on? And how are the results? When my fake smile fell, I was stunned. I still am. Still processing that one!

SO GLAD you joined, Anne. Your questions are welcome anytime, honestly no offense taken, I truly appreciate your insights and challenges. Some of my best friends are lawyers! (and a handful of cousins)

p.s. then again, I did exactly as you said, kind of - manipulated the situation to one I am comfortable with - flirting with a cute guy who I therefore feel safe with (the cuter, the safer), knowing he's not going to take me TOO seriously, just as you are comfortable in your abuse work - in the interest of my therapy.

p.p.s. if you look at it, my T's response to my question was so generic, so IMpersonal, it could well be contrived - nonetheless, it was effective. Only he knows for sure. I don't really care; it worked.

Argh . . . I don't know what I did, but I lost my reply so I will reconstruct. Perhaps I can use fewer words this time!

I want to say first that I really enjoy the playful and humorous and insightful way you look at therapy issues.

I totally understand how your T's disclosure was helpful to you. I think it is amazing that you were so on top of your needs that you could ask for it, and could ask for what you needed and could then observe the impact of getting what you need.

You are right, I study my T. I believe that's an automatic reaction for me, at least with men. Sometimes I have to look away, typically when I'm discussing something hard or saying something where I want to avoid the kind and empathic look on his face. But when he talks, I always look at him. Nonverbal communication specialists will tell you that it is a female/submissive response to look at someone while they are talking to you, but to look away when you are talking to them. I don't feel it's submissive on my part but just based on that good ole instinct to survive. If you think that someone might hurt you, you're going to be on top of reading the signals of danger so you can *poof* escape. Or not.

When I hear you say that your mother used to laugh that you were so easily fooled, I relate to that from a place where all children, no matter how intelligent, can be easily fooled. Because they trust their parents with their feelings. They trust that the feelings their parents give to them are authentic. When parents "fool" their kids, kids learn that they can't trust their instincts about how their parents are feeling. My father was a master at getting me to avoid my natural responses to reading him and his emotions. Come here, I want to hug you. Naw, he seems angry. Using his gentle voice, opens his arms. I go. I do not get what I think I will.

Maybe you could infer from this experience, I am vigilant. It is just so tough for me to let down my fences even though I really feel pretty open and trusting and I think I'm getting stuff done. I am not sure that it is inconsistent (the "it" being my fences) with being able to share and be open with my T. I think that my vigilance is as much a part of me as my arms and my legs. I don't know that I ever could let it go in the context of therapy, I don't know that I would want to, I'm not sure that my vigilance in terms of my reading of what's going on with my T is something that would be useful for me to be able to do. And although I might be vigilant, I still get fooled.

I don't agree that I'm trying to "fix" my T when he self discloses or that I want him to self disclose so I can fix him. He's really pretty well put together, he radiates a sense of deep contentment with his marriage and his life. I think maybe you didn't quite hear me when I said that I thought that his self disclosures, like your T's disclosure today, were actually useful in getting me to drop my fences.

Anne

Re your final sentence, you're right, I didn't. I think we are more alike than different. I spent my life with computers, you are with actual people, so you are more comfortable with "thicker" more palpable conversations? whereas I need to distill it to concepts? But I think we are both doing the same thing, getting them to answer our questions in a way that is meaningful to us. That sounds trivial but so not. Conversation, let alone therapy, can be so hard.

The humor thing is weird. I used to drive the 2nd husband nuts, I would either say, I never kid, or you know I'm always kidding.

I'm not your typical female, and get called sir a lot. In a dress, people think I'm in drag, it's a little distressing! Working on losing weight, but this happened even when I was young. My mother started working when I was small and really did not pay much attention to me, and I think I "imprinted" on my dad & brother, like a duckling! Plus, i've often suspected my parents were in the closet. Mum definitely wore the pants in the family and is very "sensitive" about lesbians, and my dad used to put on my coats and Easter bonnets, so... Is there an app here for THAT?!

Hankster, Anne - love your interchange, so much thought in it. I'm so happy this thread could be your host. hijack, please and keep hijacking.

I totally agree with you that we are more alike than different, maybe you're more conceptual and I'm more contextual in our distinct analyses of things. But I do feel a connection with you around how we go about finding the meaningful stuff that we need in therapy. I hope that's okay for me to say. I really appreciate that you took the time and energy to explain how you see things.

I'm not such a typical female either, even though I'm somewhat girly in appearance. I'm not really into clothes and shoes and makeup. And although I remind lots of people of a stereotypical Jewish mother, I am outspoken and tough as nails. Someone once told me that I was a "straight arrow," just like a man. I guess women are supposed to be crooked in some way.

Anne

Hankster's conceptual; Anne is contextual, I think I'm just confused. I had a dream last night in which I was driving my car and I suddenly forgot how to drive and went into a ditch. I was trying to call 9-1-1 and the whole dream was trying to find those numbers. Still, can I hang out with you smart people and maybe some of your conceptual/contextual wisdom will brush off on me? pleeeez

We always knew the Three Stooges just needed therapy!

But your dream, Sky, acc to my theory, means a) you feel you are in over your head (not being able to drive - not my theory, read it somewhere) and b) you are trying to connect right & left brain, is my theory, numbers are on the side of the brain that is not dreaming, that's why you can't find them to "dial".

Actually, Anne, I LOVE fashion, it's art to me, hair, shoes, clothes, makeup, tats. I just FEEL like a pig with lipstick (SO glad they resurrected that phrase - I couldn't find anybody who'd heard it, and not really something you wanna go around asking people. Previous pdoc probably thought I was truly nuts for it).

My (very good) friend who is a T says she (& probably i) tested out high masculine traits on the INTP whatever that test is? I think if it has it. There was a thread here a short while ago about such traits and friendships.

Sorry for the atrocious grammar - i'm trying to find my voice!

That is so interesting. It reminds me of what I always tell my son, that when you go looking for something you've lost, it is always right where you expect it to be.

Would love for you to hang out, sky. I think you have plenty of wisdom yourself.

Anne

We must always remember that "hankster be a her."

Yeah, I shoulda picked a nice ANDROGYNOUS name like CCBG! That's it, I'm changing it to something more... gurly.

I'm feel really lucky. T did not try to bring up any of those points that I read to her on Wednesday. She's so great. She knew I still am not ready to talk about them and she didn't force the issue. It feels good to be understood that well. It really really does.

But she had to force the topic of mindfulness because my mind was all over the map. I guess I defaulted again into my diversionary tactics and I had a TON of irrelevant stuff that I told her. I was on fire - telling her about the university extension class I enrolled in, the fight with H, the weekend trip, my time at coffeeshop, and especially my new studies of 'consciousness' based on the readings of a book written by a neuroscientist.

I was having a blast and then finally T said, "Sky, I've brought something for us to do."

I'm thinking, "huh, but I'm on a roll now." But I let her have the floor. Generous of me, I know.

wait did I miss an update? You saw her on Friday too?