[lacey12345]

Hi all,

I just put this in an old thread, but thinking about it, I wasn't sure it fit.

So here it is:

Dear T,

You work out of a small practice. One of the other people working there is also your best friend of several years. I'll call him Mr. X. From looking around on Google the other day, I found out that Mr. X lost his state license because he had been sexually involved with a client for a few years. Both he and the client were married at the time, and he is still married with children now. It's all very creepy to me, as well as a bit hard to believe.

I'd like to ask you about this whole business, because I'm not sure what to do with this information. I'm not sure if it makes me question your integrity and judgement. I'm not sure I want to be involved with your practice, with you as my counselor, in light of this information. After all, it's a small practice, he's your best friend. You may have known about it at the time, when Mr. X was involved in his affair. You certainly know about it now, and yet you still share a practice with him, he still sees clients. What does this say about you?

You've always been very professional with me. I think you will avoid topics like sex and men with me, or we talk about such things in vague euphemisms. Maybe it's part of your personality or mine, maybe it's because we are opposite genders, maybe it's a consequence of what your friend did or how male therapists generally approach counseling female patients--that you avoid topics of conversation that are sexual in nature because of the gray area and possibility of overstepping boundaries. I don't know. But if I'm embarrassed to talk about sex (I never had the sex talk with my parents, and I think they chose to ignore the possibility that I have been sexually active w/ boyfriends), and you avoid talking about it, that just seems... unhealthy. Repressive. Should I be seeing a female counselor where I might be able to talk about these things and consider sex as a healthy part of existence?

Ultimately, I don't know what to do about Mr. X. I find myself questioning your judgement, your integrity. Should I stop seeing you? I may be assuming too much about what you knew and when, but since the license revoking was public, I know you know now and continue to share a practice with this man. Maybe there is more to the story, maybe it's a financial thing now (though you say he is your best friend), maybe it's convenience. But what he is reported to have done is morally reprehensible. How can I trust your psychological insight and general wisdom if I am questioning your general body of ethics and morality? Should I judge you by your chosen colleague and close friend?

I also don't know who to ask about this. A friend? (Many of my friends don't know I'm in counseling.) A parent or family member? (I don't know if I could talk to them for advice without having to act on that advice. For example, my dad would likely feel very uncomfortable with the breach of professional ethics on Mr. X's part, that he doesn't want me near such an environment, and he might want me to stop seeing you, T. Dad already thinks I'm doing well and maybe it's time to discontinue therapy.) The whole business leaves me unsettled and though I've known you, T, for over two years, I'm finding myself distancing myself from you, already mentally questioning the advice and wisdom you've given me over the last several months. Which makes me sad, because you have helped me a lot. I think. Ah, I'm confused. Does this knowledge now erase what our relationship has been? It may not be fair, but emotions aren't rational. I'm also slow to trust, and now I am wondering if I have misplaced that trust.

Silently wondering,
Lacey

[swimmergirl]

Hi Lacey,

This is pretty big stuff. I think you did a great job articulating your position and explaining why you feel the way you do. This info is public knowledge. It is on the internet. You say he knew the license revoking was public. That means any person.........and most of us check our Ts out online anyway............will find out anyway.
If you really like your T and you feel you can try to stay rational and less emotional..........I would bring it up directly in your next session. Confront him on it. Heck, give him a copy of this letter. Let him tell you his side of the story. Express your concern that other people may find out, that it may affect his business, and most importantly, that it appears to you(and will to others) that he has something to hide which effects EVERYTHING. Based on that and his response............you should make your decision. If you are nervous or afraid to confront him on your own, bring someone with you. Good luck and let us know what you do.
sg

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by lacey12345

Hi all,

I just put this in an old thread, but thinking about it, I wasn't sure it fit.

So here it is:

Dear T,

You work out of a small practice. One of the other people working there is also your best friend of several years. I'll call him Mr. X. From looking around on Google the other day, I found out that Mr. X lost his state license because he had been sexually involved with a client for a few years. Both he and the client were married at the time, and he is still married with children now. It's all very creepy to me, as well as a bit hard to believe.

I'd like to ask you about this whole business, because I'm not sure what to do with this information. I'm not sure if it makes me question your integrity and judgement. I'm not sure I want to be involved with your practice, with you as my counselor, in light of this information. After all, it's a small practice, he's your best friend. You may have known about it at the time, when Mr. X was involved in his affair. You certainly know about it now, and yet you still share a practice with him, he still sees clients. What does this say about you?

You've always been very professional with me. I think you will avoid topics like sex and men with me, or we talk about such things in vague euphemisms. Maybe it's part of your personality or mine, maybe it's because we are opposite genders, maybe it's a consequence of what your friend did or how male therapists generally approach counseling female patients--that you avoid topics of conversation that are sexual in nature because of the gray area and possibility of overstepping boundaries. I don't know. But if I'm embarrassed to talk about sex (I never had the sex talk with my parents, and I think they chose to ignore the possibility that I have been sexually active w/ boyfriends), and you avoid talking about it, that just seems... unhealthy. Repressive. Should I be seeing a female counselor where I might be able to talk about these things and consider sex as a healthy part of existence?

Ultimately, I don't know what to do about Mr. X. I find myself questioning your judgement, your integrity. Should I stop seeing you? I may be assuming too much about what you knew and when, but since the license revoking was public, I know you know now and continue to share a practice with this man. Maybe there is more to the story, maybe it's a financial thing now (though you say he is your best friend), maybe it's convenience. But what he is reported to have done is morally reprehensible. How can I trust your psychological insight and general wisdom if I am questioning your general body of ethics and morality? Should I judge you by your chosen colleague and close friend?

I also don't know who to ask about this. A friend? (Many of my friends don't know I'm in counseling.) A parent or family member? (I don't know if I could talk to them for advice without having to act on that advice. For example, my dad would likely feel very uncomfortable with the breach of professional ethics on Mr. X's part, that he doesn't want me near such an environment, and he might want me to stop seeing you, T. Dad already thinks I'm doing well and maybe it's time to discontinue therapy.) The whole business leaves me unsettled and though I've known you, T, for over two years, I'm finding myself distancing myself from you, already mentally questioning the advice and wisdom you've given me over the last several months. Which makes me sad, because you have helped me a lot. I think. Ah, I'm confused. Does this knowledge now erase what our relationship has been? It may not be fair, but emotions aren't rational. I'm also slow to trust, and now I am wondering if I have misplaced that trust.

Silently wondering,
Lacey

I got distracted and didnt read the whole post so pardon me if I am out of touch with this but I have a question -

the person that had an unethical relationship with their client wasnt your therapist so why would another therapist (not your own) having unethical relationships with someone that is not you, question your therapist and whether your own therapist is ethical.

in order to write this letter you already have built up a sense of trust with your therapist right and you know your therapist isnt the unethical one right and you know the sexual abuse by that unethical therapist wasnt you.

Im just not seeing the problem here unless that old thing called transference is kicking in here where you are in your mind making that unethical therapist into being your therapist and in your mind making the victim to that other therapists abuse to be you.

Also I dont know about where you are but here where we are, when a mental health provider does something like this and loses their credentials the other co workers dont always know why, what happened or anything of the sort.

therapists have to "renew" their credentials from time to time and its quite normal for a mental health providers credentials to expire and it takes time to go through the renewal process. So using my work places as an example its not unusual for me to know this provider or that one lost their credentials but still be practicing and not know it was because theirs expired and are going through the renewal process or they did something wrong and got sanctioned or must complete a probationary period and requirements before their credentials are reinstated.

if where your therapist works its the same way, your therapist may not know that mental health provider doesnt have his credentials, or maybe that provider lost their credentials and completed what ever punishment needed completing and now the credentials have been reinstated, and what ever else is involved.

your therapist may not even be legally able to discuss with you what goes on with her co workers. it you were here at the crisis center and this happened here those that work here are unable to discuss what goes on with the personal lives (having sex with their clients is considered that therapists personal life and job not up for discussion with me and my clients) of other treatment providers we work with.

your therapist though will be able to work on your issues as to why what a treatment provider not your own is making you question your treatment providers interaction with you and why it makes you uncomfortable to know a treatment provider that you dont have did this. basically keeping the conversation on you and your issues. not on the unethical therapists issues.

if you are asking for opinions about the sound of the letter, grammatical and such what I did read of it is worded ok to me.

[ECHOES]

Ask away. Information about professional licenses is public.

I had a T who did this very thing. He was arrested, lost his license.
I was devastated because he just disappeared with no warning and it was several months before I just happened to hear why he left suddenly. The community mental health center wasn't saying.

It just so happened that the T that I saw after that, a T I returned to for a while, knew of my T who disappeared. He asked me how I felt about that T and I told him that I felt really bad for his family because they seemed like a close family (from photos he displayed and vacation stories he shared) and that this must have been so hard on all of them. After I told this current T how I felt, he then shared with me that the former T was in therapy and in a program at the hospital that the current T was running for situations just like this: the program was to assess the person to see if it was realistic for them to stay in the profession in any form.
So, I came away with a bigger picture than what I had initially. Former T had made a serious mistake that affected many people and his profession that dedicated so many years of education to. Like all our mistakes, I hope that he and all those involved were able to heal and work through this.

I'm confused. You can lose your license and still see clients?

[wintergirl]

A therapist in my T's clinic was in a similar situation, and his license was suspended for 21 months (or something like that). A client had been coming to him for four years, and a few months after the client terminated therapy she and her T started a sexual relationship.

[WikidPissah]

Talk to T about it, share your letter or write another, this is important stuff. But please don't blame your T for what the other T did. It is possible it was a huge 1 time mistake and thru therapy that T learned what went wrong and how to avoid that. Maybe your T is even helping Mr. X get it back together...supervising him even...you don't really know until you ask.

[sunrise]

Originally Posted by lacey12345

Should I judge you by your chosen colleague and close friend?

I do indeed think you are being judgmental about the friendship part. It sounds like their friendship was strong enough to withstand this difficult event. The therapist made a mistake, an important one. It is not being ignored by the licensing board and presumably he is being disciplined. It sounds like your T has maintained his friendship. That could potentially speak well of him, not ill. It's hard to say for sure with the limited information available.

I think the topic of your T's colleague is an important one to you and could potentially be therapy-interfering unless you bring it up. However, I would suggest a face to face conversation instead of the letter. Also, your T may not have the kind of authority to ask this therapist to leave the practice, even if he wanted to. Many Ts share office space, waiting room, and some costs (like photocopier), but they are essentially all independent practitioners. It is not up to your T to discipline his colleague; the licensing board will take care of that. If your T doesn't want to share space with him, your T could move. This does not sound like it is the case.

The part about your feeling that your T does not want to discuss your sexuality is very important and should be addressed. I don't think that is related necessarily to your T being male. Many male therapists are capable of speaking directly about sexual topics with their clients.

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by swimmergirl

Hi Lacey,

This is pretty big stuff. I think you did a great job articulating your position and explaining why you feel the way you do. This info is public knowledge. It is on the internet. You say he knew the license revoking was public. That means any person.........and most of us check our Ts out online anyway............will find out anyway.
If you really like your T and you feel you can try to stay rational and less emotional..........I would bring it up directly in your next session. Confront him on it. Heck, give him a copy of this letter. Let him tell you his side of the story. Express your concern that other people may find out, that it may affect his business, and most importantly, that it appears to you(and will to others) that he has something to hide which effects EVERYTHING. Based on that and his response............you should make your decision. If you are nervous or afraid to confront him on your own, bring someone with you. Good luck and let us know what you do.
sg

Hi Swimmergirl,

Thank you for the encouragement! This is my first "posting" for advice, and so I was more than a little nervous. I also felt like I was betraying my relationship with T by asking all y'all your thoughts/opinions on this situation. So it is very nice to hear your positive feedback. Thanks!!

Part of posting it is I don't know what to make of this information. You think I should bring it up with him?

[swimmergirl]

Hi Lacey...........

Yes I would absolutely bring it up with him. If you are afraid to say it, bring in a copy of the letter you posted here or type a new one. If he is such a great T(and I am not saying he is not) give him a chance to defend himself or at least tell you his side of the story. The way he reacts to this will let you know if you should continue to work with him. If he is angry, mad that you found out, accusatory towards you, etc. run like hell and find another. However, if he is understanding, apologetic, and can see where you are coming from..................see what he says. If that is the case I am sure there is more to the story. I am surprised he has not disclosed this to other clients who might be seeing this other therapist. And if you are nervous at all, bring another person with you if you think that might help.(if you can) Try to show you are concerned about this rather than appauled or angry as he is more likely to tell you more if you don't get his defenses up. Be sure to let us know what happens. By the way, I think you are handling this well and a lot of people would leave and never come back. Maybe this guy is a good T but a bad businessman? Just guessing.

[lacey12345]

Amanda Louise, I'm having trouble responding to the sections separately (the formatting changes and it gets all wacky looking), so I'm going to break your questions up and try to distinguish my responses. Hope it works! Thanks for your time and energy!!

Q: I got distracted and didnt read the whole post so pardon me if I am out of touch with this but I have a question: the person that had an unethical relationship with their client wasnt your therapist so why would another therapist (not your own) having unethical relationships with someone that is not you, question your therapist and whether your own therapist is ethical?

A: Yes, the person who committed these misdeeds and the patient involved are neither my personal T nor myself. In fact, by the timeline specified on the legal documents, I was not his patient during the time when his coworker had the affair and lost his license. I think I started seeing him a few months after that.

Q: In order to write this letter you already have built up a sense of trust with your therapist right and you know your therapist isnt the unethical one right and you know the sexual abuse by that unethical therapist wasnt you.

A: Oh, I don't know that I'm giving this letter to him. I originally posted this in a different thread (things you'd want to tell your T...), and the format I saw there was a letter form, which appealed to me. I didn't write the above letter with the intention to give it to my T, but as a way to share my problem with you lovely PC folks.

Q: Im just not seeing the problem here unless that old thing called transference is kicking in here where you are in your mind making that unethical therapist into being your therapist and in your mind making the victim to that other therapists abuse to be you.

A: I don't believe that my T would ever do anything like that to me, nor can I imagine letting things get to that point in my therapy. He's a little younger than my dad, but he's very fatherly towards me, in manner, in topic, in advice. If it ever became something other than that, I would ... I don't even know. Be shocked. He's talked before about how proud my parents must've been to have me as a daughter, and he's constructed himself to be my advocate and encourager. If anything, this whole transference thing (which I'm really not all that familiar with), would more likely be that I'm seeing him as a father figure. And that dependency makes me uncomfortable.

Q: Also I dont know about where you are but here where we are, when a mental health provider does something like this and loses their credentials the other co workers dont always know why, what happened or anything of the sort.

A: This coworker is my T's best friend. They do a lot of things together, are very close. The practice is very small. There is no way my T doesn't know about the license revoking. I am not sure if he knew about the affair when it was taking place.

Q: therapists have to "renew" their credentials from time to time and its quite normal for a mental health providers credentials to expire and it takes time to go through the renewal process. So using my work places as an example its not unusual for me to know this provider or that one lost their credentials but still be practicing and not know it was because theirs expired and are going through the renewal process or they did something wrong and got sanctioned or must complete a probationary period and requirements before their credentials are reinstated.

A: Again, it's a small private practice. Just a handful of people. And these two are best friends. The other guy, Mr. X, per the settlement, could no longer say that he offered counseling, therapy, etc., so the practice likely had to change how things were written in business materials, cards, memos, etc.

Q: if where your therapist works its the same way, your therapist may not know that mental health provider doesnt have his credentials, or maybe that provider lost their credentials and completed what ever punishment needed completing and now the credentials have been reinstated, and what ever else is involved.

A: Per the settlement, he cannot be licensed again, at least not in my state. He can still provide "counseling" but he cannot call himself a counselor/licensed therapist/etc.

Q: your therapist may not even be legally able to discuss with you what goes on with her co workers. it you were here at the crisis center and this happened here those that work here are unable to discuss what goes on with the personal lives (having sex with their clients is considered that therapists personal life and job not up for discussion with me and my clients) of other treatment providers we work with.

A: This legal part--could he discuss it with me--is something I've thought about. How would this even come up in a conversation? It's not necessarily that I would expect him to tell me this. In fact, no, I don't expect that at all. Particularly since I was in a very vulnerable state when I first starting seeing him and I wasn't very receptive to the idea of therapy in the first place. Plus, I don't know what I would do with that information if he told me.

Your other point though--personal lives and what not--is... difficult for me to digest. Maybe some of the T's in PC can better speak to this than I can, but there is a sanctity to the patient-therapist relationship. It's similar to patient-doctor, student-teacher, etc. Take a look at this link: http://www.medbd.ca.gov/licensee/seven_sins-lust.html

I find this part particularly interesting: "in no instance shall consent of the patient or client be a defense." So even if the patient wants a relationship, is a consenting adult, the very fact that he/she is a patient precludes a romantic, sexual, personal relationship between he/she and the clinician. There are many reasons for this: the power disparity that is inherent to the patient-clinician relationship, the vulnerability of the patient and potential for manipulation...

Ultimately, whether you agree with me or not, I believe that relationships between clients and patients are morally indefensible. Mr. X cannot defend his actions, so regardless of the circumstances or players involved, I feel comfortable with my extreme discomfort with Mr.X's choices and actions. Now I have to figure out how/if that discomfort extends to my own T.

Q: your therapist though will be able to work on your issues as to why what a treatment provider not your own is making you question your treatment providers interaction with you and why it makes you uncomfortable to know a treatment provider that you dont have did this. basically keeping the conversation on you and your issues. not on the unethical therapists issues.

A: I don't know if I will even bring all this up with my T.

Q: if you are asking for opinions about the sound of the letter, grammatical and such what I did read of it is worded ok to me.

A: Aw thanks But the letter is just for you guys, not for my T.

[/QUOTE]

Thank you for your advice!!!! Let me know if what I wrote makes sense and if you have any other questions....

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Ask away. Information about professional licenses is public.

I had a T who did this very thing. He was arrested, lost his license.
I was devastated because he just disappeared with no warning and it was several months before I just happened to hear why he left suddenly. The community mental health center wasn't saying.

It just so happened that the T that I saw after that, a T I returned to for a while, knew of my T who disappeared. He asked me how I felt about that T and I told him that I felt really bad for his family because they seemed like a close family (from photos he displayed and vacation stories he shared) and that this must have been so hard on all of them. After I told this current T how I felt, he then shared with me that the former T was in therapy and in a program at the hospital that the current T was running for situations just like this: the program was to assess the person to see if it was realistic for them to stay in the profession in any form.
So, I came away with a bigger picture than what I had initially. Former T had made a serious mistake that affected many people and his profession that dedicated so many years of education to. Like all our mistakes, I hope that he and all those involved were able to heal and work through this.

Do you think a T should be allowed to return to being a T after committing such transgressions?

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I'm confused. You can lose your license and still see clients?

Yes. Isn't that crazy? And some counselors never had a license to begin with!

Check out these links:

http://www.helium.com/items/158528-u...nd-a-counselor

http://psychcentral.com/find-therapi...psychotherapy/ (Specifically the licensure part)

Most insurance companies also won't reimburse non-licensed therapy.

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by wintergirl

A therapist in my T's clinic was in a similar situation, and his license was suspended for 21 months (or something like that). A client had been coming to him for four years, and a few months after the client terminated therapy she and her T started a sexual relationship.

What did your T say about it?

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by WikidPissah

Talk to T about it, share your letter or write another, this is important stuff. But please don't blame your T for what the other T did. It is possible it was a huge 1 time mistake and thru therapy that T learned what went wrong and how to avoid that. Maybe your T is even helping Mr. X get it back together...supervising him even...you don't really know until you ask.

I'm hesitant to share the letter... it wasn't written to give him, I just wanted advice from you guys.

I don't blame my T.... I just feel uncomfortable that he is still involved with this guy, as a best friend, as a colleague in a very small practice.

I've had that thought too--maybe T didn't know, or was a source for good moral help, maybe it speaks to his character that he potentially stood by his friend and let him remain in the practice. I really don't know.

But if T did feel he had acted poorly, I don't know that he would tell me. If T did know something or felt he had given bad advice or .... wasn't comfortable with the practice-share, .... I don't know.

I think part of why I don't want to ask is I think whatever the answer may be... I may need to stop seeing this T.

[lacey12345]

Dialogue with Sunset (Thanks for writing!!!):

Q: I do indeed think you are being judgmental about the friendship part. It sounds like their friendship was strong enough to withstand this difficult event. The therapist made a mistake, an important one. It is not being ignored by the licensing board and presumably he is being disciplined. It sounds like your T has maintained his friendship. That could potentially speak well of him, not ill. It's hard to say for sure with the limited information available.

A: Maybe I am being judgmental about the friendship part, but is that a bad thing? Maybe I have high expectations for people, but I'm letting him into my head. That is a HUGE leap of faith, act of trust, etc. Maybe it's a good thing he stuck by his friend, in the grand scheme of things, but if it makes me uncomfortable, I should not remain in this environment. Ah, I don't know.

Q: I think the topic of your T's colleague is an important one to you and could potentially be therapy-interfering unless you bring it up. However, I would suggest a face to face conversation instead of the letter. Also, your T may not have the kind of authority to ask this therapist to leave the practice, even if he wanted to. Many Ts share office space, waiting room, and some costs (like photocopier), but they are essentially all independent practitioners. It is not up to your T to discipline his colleague; the licensing board will take care of that. If your T doesn't want to share space with him, your T could move. This does not sound like it is the case.

A: I don't know the intricacies of their lease agreement and financials. It's just... the presence of Mr. X seems like a condoning of past actions.... for whatever reason. Maybe convenience, maybe loyalty to a friend, but it feels like some values are being subverted in doing so, and that's giving me a bad feeling. As for the letter, it's for you all, not him. As for the possibility of this interfering with my therapy, yes, I agree, but I also worry that the conversation that results may lead me to terminate my therapy. And with losing my mom a few months ago, my T has been a constant presence in my life (one that was there before her death and after). I don't know if I am ready to cut ties with him. He's a link to the past, to my relationship with my mom when she was still alive, and thinking about ending therapy makes me think about grief, death, loss.

Q: The part about your feeling that your T does not want to discuss your sexuality is very important and should be addressed. I don't think that is related necessarily to your T being male. Many male therapists are capable of speaking directly about sexual topics with their clients.

A: Eh, I'm kinda asexual right now anyway. I'm feeling like it's overrated and I don't really care. I just notice that I don't care and find it unusual.

[amandalouise]

Originally Posted by lacey12345

Amanda Louise, I'm having trouble responding to the sections separately (the formatting changes and it gets all wacky looking), so I'm going to break your questions up and try to distinguish my responses. Hope it works! Thanks for your time and energy!!

Q: I got distracted and didnt read the whole post so pardon me if I am out of touch with this but I have a question: the person that had an unethical relationship with their client wasnt your therapist so why would another therapist (not your own) having unethical relationships with someone that is not you, question your therapist and whether your own therapist is ethical?

A: Yes, the person who committed these misdeeds and the patient involved are neither my personal T nor myself. In fact, by the timeline specified on the legal documents, I was not his patient during the time when his coworker had the affair and lost his license. I think I started seeing him a few months after that.

Q: In order to write this letter you already have built up a sense of trust with your therapist right and you know your therapist isnt the unethical one right and you know the sexual abuse by that unethical therapist wasnt you.

A: Oh, I don't know that I'm giving this letter to him. I originally posted this in a different thread (things you'd want to tell your T...), and the format I saw there was a letter form, which appealed to me. I didn't write the above letter with the intention to give it to my T, but as a way to share my problem with you lovely PC folks.

Q: Im just not seeing the problem here unless that old thing called transference is kicking in here where you are in your mind making that unethical therapist into being your therapist and in your mind making the victim to that other therapists abuse to be you.

A: I don't believe that my T would ever do anything like that to me, nor can I imagine letting things get to that point in my therapy. He's a little younger than my dad, but he's very fatherly towards me, in manner, in topic, in advice. If it ever became something other than that, I would ... I don't even know. Be shocked. He's talked before about how proud my parents must've been to have me as a daughter, and he's constructed himself to be my advocate and encourager. If anything, this whole transference thing (which I'm really not all that familiar with), would more likely be that I'm seeing him as a father figure. And that dependency makes me uncomfortable.

Q: Also I dont know about where you are but here where we are, when a mental health provider does something like this and loses their credentials the other co workers dont always know why, what happened or anything of the sort.

A: This coworker is my T's best friend. They do a lot of things together, are very close. The practice is very small. There is no way my T doesn't know about the license revoking. I am not sure if he knew about the affair when it was taking place.

Q: therapists have to "renew" their credentials from time to time and its quite normal for a mental health providers credentials to expire and it takes time to go through the renewal process. So using my work places as an example its not unusual for me to know this provider or that one lost their credentials but still be practicing and not know it was because theirs expired and are going through the renewal process or they did something wrong and got sanctioned or must complete a probationary period and requirements before their credentials are reinstated.

A: Again, it's a small private practice. Just a handful of people. And these two are best friends. The other guy, Mr. X, per the settlement, could no longer say that he offered counseling, therapy, etc., so the practice likely had to change how things were written in business materials, cards, memos, etc.

Q: if where your therapist works its the same way, your therapist may not know that mental health provider doesnt have his credentials, or maybe that provider lost their credentials and completed what ever punishment needed completing and now the credentials have been reinstated, and what ever else is involved.

A: Per the settlement, he cannot be licensed again, at least not in my state. He can still provide "counseling" but he cannot call himself a counselor/licensed therapist/etc.

Q: your therapist may not even be legally able to discuss with you what goes on with her co workers. it you were here at the crisis center and this happened here those that work here are unable to discuss what goes on with the personal lives (having sex with their clients is considered that therapists personal life and job not up for discussion with me and my clients) of other treatment providers we work with.

A: This legal part--could he discuss it with me--is something I've thought about. How would this even come up in a conversation? It's not necessarily that I would expect him to tell me this. In fact, no, I don't expect that at all. Particularly since I was in a very vulnerable state when I first starting seeing him and I wasn't very receptive to the idea of therapy in the first place. Plus, I don't know what I would do with that information if he told me.

Your other point though--personal lives and what not--is... difficult for me to digest. Maybe some of the T's in PC can better speak to this than I can, but there is a sanctity to the patient-therapist relationship. It's similar to patient-doctor, student-teacher, etc. Take a look at this link: http://www.medbd.ca.gov/licensee/seven_sins-lust.html

I find this part particularly interesting: "in no instance shall consent of the patient or client be a defense." So even if the patient wants a relationship, is a consenting adult, the very fact that he/she is a patient precludes a romantic, sexual, personal relationship between he/she and the clinician. There are many reasons for this: the power disparity that is inherent to the patient-clinician relationship, the vulnerability of the patient and potential for manipulation...

Ultimately, whether you agree with me or not, I believe that relationships between clients and patients are morally indefensible. Mr. X cannot defend his actions, so regardless of the circumstances or players involved, I feel comfortable with my extreme discomfort with Mr.X's choices and actions. Now I have to figure out how/if that discomfort extends to my own T.

Q: your therapist though will be able to work on your issues as to why what a treatment provider not your own is making you question your treatment providers interaction with you and why it makes you uncomfortable to know a treatment provider that you dont have did this. basically keeping the conversation on you and your issues. not on the unethical therapists issues.

A: I don't know if I will even bring all this up with my T.

Q: if you are asking for opinions about the sound of the letter, grammatical and such what I did read of it is worded ok to me.

A: Aw thanks But the letter is just for you guys, not for my T.

Thank you for your advice!!!! Let me know if what I wrote makes sense and if you have any other questions....[/QUOTE]

Thank you very much for explaining things to me

the part you wrote of Your other point though--personal lives and what not--is... difficult for me to digest. Maybe some of the T's in PC can better speak to this than I can"

I am a therapist and do understand whats in that link thanks.

heres I was trying to get at lets use you and your therapist, me and my therapist, lets make it that we go to the same agency -

you see your therapist at "#1 counseling agency"

I see my therapist at "#1 counseling agency"

my therapist is friends with your therapist.

what goes on in your therapy sessions is personal and private between you and your therapist. it doesnt matter what you and your therapist do behind those closed doors its a therapy session and therapy sessions are covered by confidentiality rules.

you and your therapist can plan a bank heist and if its done in therapy sessions no matter what my therapist cant tell me what is going on in your therapy sessions. you and your therapist can fall in love and have sex in that therapy room and still my therapist cannot tell me about it because what goes on between you and your therapist is private and personal to you and your therapist and is covered by confidentiality laws.

even if you and your therapist meet after hours for your affair together, even though what goes on outside of the therapy sessions is your own personal life and no matter what the therapist does after ours is his personal life, you and he are client and therapist so its covered by confidentiality laws and ethics laws.

even if my therapist and yours are friends what goes on for you and your therapist inside and outside the therapy room is covered by confidentiality laws.

even if your therapist tells my therapist you and he had sex my therapist still cant tell me about it because he is your therapist so confidentiality laws apply to anything and everything including any contact between you and your therapist is covered by confidentiality laws.

my therapist and your therapist possibly being friends doesnt change that. what ever goes on between you and your therapist regardless of if you and he have an abusive situation happen to you caused by your therapist its still covered by confidentiality laws so my therapist cannot tell me anything about what happened between you and your therapist.

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by amandalouise

Thank you for your advice!!!! Let me know if what I wrote makes sense and if you have any other questions....

Thank you very much for explaining things to me

the part you wrote of Your other point though--personal lives and what not--is... difficult for me to digest. Maybe some of the T's in PC can better speak to this than I can"

I am a therapist and do understand whats in that link thanks.

heres I was trying to get at lets use you and your therapist, me and my therapist, lets make it that we go to the same agency -

you see your therapist at "#1 counseling agency"

I see my therapist at "#1 counseling agency"

my therapist is friends with your therapist.

what goes on in your therapy sessions is personal and private between you and your therapist. it doesnt matter what you and your therapist do behind those closed doors its a therapy session and therapy sessions are covered by confidentiality rules.

you and your therapist can plan a bank heist and if its done in therapy sessions no matter what my therapist cant tell me what is going on in your therapy sessions. you and your therapist can fall in love and have sex in that therapy room and still my therapist cannot tell me about it because what goes on between you and your therapist is private and personal to you and your therapist and is covered by confidentiality laws.

even if you and your therapist meet after hours for your affair together, even though what goes on outside of the therapy sessions is your own personal life and no matter what the therapist does after ours is his personal life, you and he are client and therapist so its covered by confidentiality laws and ethics laws.

even if my therapist and yours are friends what goes on for you and your therapist inside and outside the therapy room is covered by confidentiality laws.

even if your therapist tells my therapist you and he had sex my therapist still cant tell me about it because he is your therapist so confidentiality laws apply to anything and everything including any contact between you and your therapist is covered by confidentiality laws.

my therapist and your therapist possibly being friends doesnt change that. what ever goes on between you and your therapist regardless of if you and he have an abusive situation happen to you caused by your therapist its still covered by confidentiality laws so my therapist cannot tell me anything about what happened between you and your therapist.

[/QUOTE]

Hi Amanda Louise!

Your examples and information are great! Thank you for sharing them with me!

Reading over your post, I realized I should clarify something.

I am not surprised that I wasn't told, that this didn't come up in session. I would kinda be shocked if I was told. I don't think it would be my place as the client of one therapist to hear of the doings of another therapist and his client. And I agree with all of that in your post.

Here's the thing. I actually came across the information/public documents because I was emailing something to my T and the website I was on listed the other two providers in the practice. I wondered what their specialty was, as my guy is a clinical psychologist, and I knew a little bit about one of the other people and her credentials, but I wondered if Mr. X was also a clinical psychologist. So I clicked his name for a google search to see his licensure record--expecting to find sites showing him to also be a clinical psychologist. I did not expect to find anything incriminating or really anything at all. A lot of people I know in healthcare are very very careful about putting things up online (or rather, NOT putting things up online), so I thought the only thing I would find would be relating to his credential, which is public knowledge.

But I know now. What do I do with this knowledge? What has been seen can't be unseen.... especially since I'm sober these days, so I don't have those addictions to aid in forgetting...

I'm in a vulnerable place these past few months. I miss my mom terribly, and I wish I had her to ask for advice, for reassurance, to tell me the right thing to do for me. She might say, she'd want me safe and secure, and nowhere near an environment where something like this happened. She could say that Mr. X and his actions are not the same as T and his actions/character and I should trust my long-time, beneficial relationship with T.

So overall, no, it's not information that I, T's patient, should know, but I do know. And I feel sad because I'm feeling like I can't continue our partnership in mental health...

[lacey12345]

Originally Posted by swimmergirl

Hi Lacey...........

Yes I would absolutely bring it up with him. If you are afraid to say it, bring in a copy of the letter you posted here or type a new one. If he is such a great T(and I am not saying he is not) give him a chance to defend himself or at least tell you his side of the story. The way he reacts to this will let you know if you should continue to work with him. If he is angry, mad that you found out, accusatory towards you, etc. run like hell and find another. However, if he is understanding, apologetic, and can see where you are coming from..................see what he says. If that is the case I am sure there is more to the story. I am surprised he has not disclosed this to other clients who might be seeing this other therapist. And if you are nervous at all, bring another person with you if you think that might help.(if you can) Try to show you are concerned about this rather than appauled or angry as he is more likely to tell you more if you don't get his defenses up. Be sure to let us know what happens. By the way, I think you are handling this well and a lot of people would leave and never come back. Maybe this guy is a good T but a bad businessman? Just guessing.

I really like that: "maybe this guy is a good T but a bad business."

This gave me a lot to think about.

[wintergirl]

Originally Posted by lacey12345

What did your T say about it?

I haven't asked him about it yet, but I am very curious about the whole situation. Maybe someday I'll have the courage to ask him about it!

Prior to actually entering therapy, I would have been very judgmental, but now that I've experienced the intimacy of the sessions, it's much easier for me to see how lines can be blurred (not that I'm excusing or condoning the behavior - I can just see how deceiving our emotions can be in such an intimate, raw setting). We're all humans with lots and lots of flaws.

[lacey12345]

I went to the appointment today. We talked for a while about his colleagues, and I asked him why he was friends with Mr. X.

[wintergirl]

Originally Posted by lacey12345

I went to the appointment today. We talked for a while about his colleagues, and I asked him why he was friends with Mr. X.

How did he respond? I think it's great that you were so open about your concerns.

[lacey12345]

I've canceled the next six weeks of appointments.

[lacey12345]

I don't know anyone here.

I doubt my absence will be missed.

[Kacey2]

Lacey,
Can you elaborate on what your t said in response to your questioning him on this issue? I have been following your thread and am hoping to hear what transpired. What lead you to cancelling the next 6 appointments?