[athena2011]

I have a lot of trouble getting my head around the therapeutic relationship. The feeling that it is real yet unreal. If you are the kind of person who has trouble with emotional regulation - ie: strongly negative feelings towards somebody, strongly positive or total apathy, I think transference in therapy is like some kind of exposure therapy. So, like any relationship where the other person is initially really warm, accepting, caring and empathetic towards you, you are going to think the very best of your T. You get to be head over heels for your T, then the cardinal rule of therapy "don't touch" ensures you can never act on it (not even a hug if you've got a really 'by the book' one). Then they encourage you to fantasize about them, well how can fantasizing end in anything but rejection? Because if the fantasy is about being with them, reality will ultimately creep into your fantasy and snuff it out. If you're the kind of person who will make some kind of advance, your therapist is morally bound to reject you. Or maybe you're so distrustful, you don't say a word about your feelings, even if they are intensely positive. So they will eventually die, the conversations will go downhill and you will feel like they're about to abandon you just like everybody else. So, at some point - all roads lead to rejection. So if you're emotionally dysregulated, one of your huge fears is rejection (because most people run away from you). And here you are - feeling it big time.

It's like they are giving you a massive, massive dose of your worst phobia....but then what - how the heck do they get you out of it?

Can anybody relate to this?

[roads]

Originally Posted by athena2011

Then they encourage you to fantasize about them, well how can fantasizing end in anything but rejection?

Your T encouraged you to fantasize about him/her? In what context? Sexual?

Please understand, my response to this has nothing to do with you. I am totally focused on this T. I've had several over the years, from many different schools of psychology. I understand transference. But this sounds like something way different.

Are you still seeing this T? From what you said in your post, you have every reason to be angry with this person who did apparently set you up for rejection. But I may be over-reacting. Let's see what others think ...

[Chopin99]

Originally Posted by athena2011

I have a lot of trouble getting my head around the therapeutic relationship. The feeling that it is real yet unreal. If you are the kind of person who has trouble with emotional regulation - ie: strongly negative feelings towards somebody, strongly positive or total apathy, I think transference in therapy is like some kind of exposure therapy. So, like any relationship where the other person is initially really warm, accepting, caring and empathetic towards you, you are going to think the very best of your T. You get to be head over heels for your T, then the cardinal rule of therapy "don't touch" ensures you can never act on it (not even a hug if you've got a really 'by the book' one). Then they encourage you to fantasize about them, well how can fantasizing end in anything but rejection? Because if the fantasy is about being with them, reality will ultimately creep into your fantasy and snuff it out. If you're the kind of person who will make some kind of advance, your therapist is morally bound to reject you. Or maybe you're so distrustful, you don't say a word about your feelings, even if they are intensely positive. So they will eventually die, the conversations will go downhill and you will feel like they're about to abandon you just like everybody else. So, at some point - all roads lead to rejection. So if you're emotionally dysregulated, one of your huge fears is rejection (because most people run away from you). And here you are - feeling it big time.

It's like they are giving you a massive, massive dose of your worst phobia....but then what - how the heck do they get you out of it?

Can anybody relate to this?

I relate to some aspects of this. I have borderline traits and issues with emotional regulation and fears of abandonment. I don't understand why your T would be encouraging you to fantasize, that seems a bit hinky to me. I'm having a hard time with the relationship with my T...valuation/devaluation, jumping to conclusions, distrust, making assumptions (usually related to abandonment/rejection), etc. Classic Chopin style. Since I'm in the middle of it myself, I can't give you a good answer, but I can support you on the way!

[rainbow8]

I can relate, and I know that many others on this forum can also relate to what you feel. A former T told me that we have a real relationship, but it's different from any other relationship. She said that doesn't make it LESS, just different. I think the T-relationship is MORE, not less than most relationships.

Are you sure that your T encourages you to fantasize about your relationship? Mine accepts it when I do, but then she tries to bring me back to the present. She wants us to be curious about why I want to fantasize about her and what needs I'm fulfilling, and how I can meet those needs myself or how others can meet them. I have BPD so I understand about emotional dysregulation. I know I can't be with my T the way I would like, but she accepts the part of me who wants that. Talking about it helps.

I have always told my Ts that they shatter my dreams because they can't give me what I want from them. But, with my current T, it is starting NOT to feel like she's rejecting me. I'm not sure how I got to that point, though it's taken almost 2 years to get there.

Does your T know how you feel? I would encourage you to tell her or him what you posted.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by roadrunnerbeepbeep

Your T encouraged you to fantasize about him/her? In what context? Sexual?

Please understand, my response to this has nothing to do with you. I am totally focused on this T. I've had several over the years, from many different schools of psychology. I understand transference. But this sounds like something way different.

Are you still seeing this T? From what you said in your post, you have every reason to be angry with this person who did apparently set you up for rejection. But I may be over-reacting. Let's see what others think ...

Perhaps I need to reword. Basically he says whatever comes up is OK. No feelings are 'wrong'. So if you have an intense emotional reaction that affects you 'physically' which apparently is not uncommon (e-transference), then he encourages you to talk about all aspects of it. I didn't mean to mislead - this man is nothing but a professional but he's very comfortable talking about things I'm not comfortable talking about (he's a Psychoanalyst, which is still influenced by Freudian concepts so enough said). Boundaries are well defined. I should say he neither encourages nor discourages a particular fantasy, although does encourage them in general. He does however encourage discussion of it in whatever form it takes if it happens to be present - in more detail than I would have liked because of the nature of it, but he kept digging and hell, what do I know - I figured I'd just get with the program quickly 'cause I don't want to be in therapy forever. So I blurted out what I considered after the fact to be way too much information and didn't feel great about what that said about me.

For some reason, it's like I was able to set aside reality for a few weeks. The good aspect of it is that it was an extremely powerful positive experience - because of the emotional connection, the feeling of total acceptance and the fact that he was in my head all day long for 3 weeks and in essence 'pushed out' all the horrible intruding thoughts about my multiple ongoing crises. Just kind of a banter back and forth in my head. The validation, belief in what i told him about my crises, the empathy, etc, etc was such a relief from the persecution, disbelief, and 'just suck it up' comments I had been getting over the previous year. Anyway the simple disclosure of the physical 'reaction' coupled with reality setting in ("what the hell are you thinking girl?") sent me in the complete opposite direction into total apathy. Humiliation, feelings of rejection all came flooding in and that stopped all emotion in its tracks. Well other than perhaps very negative judgemental feelings about myself, which of course I felt he would be feeling about me as well, as is my natural tendency.

Now before you guys all think I'm totally perverted, I notice I react physically to strong emotions. Just looking at a 3-legged dog makes my leg hurt. The sight of a gash so big you can see bone makes me pass out, a threatening e-mail will turn my hands white in about 5 minutes. I'd never noticed the type of physical reaction I had with my T before but perhaps it just never got to the conscious level so I was none the wiser.

I guess the main point is - they know that many patients are going to have a strong positive reaction to them. But it can go nowhere because it's not a 'real' relationship. So eventually it gets shut down or fades. The realization eventually hits the patient that NONE of these feelings can be reciprocated or if they are, they are carefully concealed by the therapist. So it is all one way. NOTHING coming back. A big black hole. Very, very rejecting.

I hope this made some sense. I find these very difficult concepts to get across.

[unaluna]

So... can I get gross and icky here for a minute and ask some questions about breastfeeding? Is it not true that women experience orgasms while breastfeeding and the contractions help the uterus shrink back to pre-natal size? So - if all of THAT is going on during mother-infant bonding, then an argument can be made for having "happy feelings" during therapy, while you are trying to rewire the ego etc. So instead of feeling rejected that this relationship isn't going anywhere, why not look on this transference discussion you had, like a warm-up exercise in an acting class - it got you in the right mood, it introduced you to the other actors, it loosened you up, and now you're ready for class, for great experiences, that will help you do what you want to do. My previous T used to ask me, about these feelings, "and what's wrong with that?" I was too embarrassed to answer, and we did not have the rapport I have with current T. So I say, put on (or take off) your big girl pants - you're in a safe place - feel your feelings, and do the work. My T likes to say he's just an average guy - well, I don't know about you, but I am hoping to do a little better than THAT. Just think of him as a very weird dentist, that should take the edge off.

[ECHOES]

Originally Posted by athena2011

I have a lot of trouble getting my head around the therapeutic relationship. The feeling that it is real yet unreal. If you are the kind of person who has trouble with emotional regulation - ie: strongly negative feelings towards somebody, strongly positive or total apathy, I think transference in therapy is like some kind of exposure therapy. So, like any relationship where the other person is initially really warm, accepting, caring and empathetic towards you, you are going to think the very best of your T. You get to be head over heels for your T, then the cardinal rule of therapy "don't touch" ensures you can never act on it (not even a hug if you've got a really 'by the book' one). Then they encourage you to fantasize about them, well how can fantasizing end in anything but rejection? Because if the fantasy is about being with them, reality will ultimately creep into your fantasy and snuff it out. If you're the kind of person who will make some kind of advance, your therapist is morally bound to reject you. Or maybe you're so distrustful, you don't say a word about your feelings, even if they are intensely positive. So they will eventually die, the conversations will go downhill and you will feel like they're about to abandon you just like everybody else. So, at some point - all roads lead to rejection. So if you're emotionally dysregulated, one of your huge fears is rejection (because most people run away from you). And here you are - feeling it big time.

It's like they are giving you a massive, massive dose of your worst phobia....but then what - how the heck do they get you out of it?

Can anybody relate to this?

Yes, and while she sits there with her encouraging words and kind demeanor and warm smile, and wants to know about a fantasy, I want to tell her... but I know part of wanting to tell her is about wanting to make the fantasy (not sexual) real and all of her wanting to hear it is just wanting to hear it and explore it. My part is emotional, her part is therapeutic. Because of this, I can't (or won't) always share because it feels so awful to talk about it with her when she is coming from that therapeutic and curious place that feels so distant to me. I know that she cares and I know that these differences make sense on many levels. Still.

[wheeler]

I think, at least for me, just saying things outloud takes away a lot of the power and energy that some thoughts have. It has taken me a long time to believe that, although I have a million examples.

My T encourages me to talk about anything and everything with her, and then definitely is much easier said than done, but it does help. Alot of times what I think is over-the-top or crazy, she'll normalize for me, or help me understand why I think/feel a particular way. I'm assuming that's what your T is doing for you.

Good luck

[athena2011]

Wow guys - thanks for the great responses.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

A former T told me that we have a real relationship, but it's different from any other relationship. She said that doesn't make it LESS, just different. I think the T-relationship is MORE, not less than most relationships.

I like this, especially the last part. I think that deep down I realize it HAS to be MORE for real, lasting change to occur.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

She wants us to be curious about why I want to fantasize about her and what needs I'm fulfilling, and how I can meet those needs myself or how others can meet them.

I have to explore this more. My first reaction was to get into a relationship (not with my T but in a 'Someone like you' kind of way.) BAD IDEA.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

I have always told my Ts that they shatter my dreams because they can't give me what I want from them. But, with my current T, it is starting NOT to feel like she's rejecting me. I'm not sure how I got to that point, though it's taken almost 2 years to get there.

. Your first sentence - yes, that's it. Perhaps I did not get that across to him. And I'm glad to see there is hope for it not feeling so rejected with the experience.

Originally Posted by rainbow8

Does your T know how you feel? I would encourage you to tell her or him what you posted.

Yes, but I think I worded it very badly. I also think I brought attention to the wrong things. So ultimately us working through/discussing it just mucked everything up and made things worse.

Originally Posted by hankster

So... can I get gross and icky here for a minute and ask some questions about breastfeeding? Is it not true that women experience orgasms while breastfeeding and the contractions help the uterus shrink back to pre-natal size? So - if all of THAT is going on during mother-infant bonding, then an argument can be made for having "happy feelings" during therapy, while you are trying to rewire the ego etc. So instead of feeling rejected that this relationship isn't going anywhere, why not look on this transference discussion you had, like a warm-up exercise in an acting class - it got you in the right mood, it introduced you to the other actors, it loosened you up, and now you're ready for class, for great experiences, that will help you do what you want to do. My previous T used to ask me, about these feelings, "and what's wrong with that?" I was too embarrassed to answer, and we did not have the rapport I have with current T. So I say, put on (or take off) your big girl pants - you're in a safe place - feel your feelings, and do the work. My T likes to say he's just an average guy - well, I don't know about you, but I am hoping to do a little better than THAT. Just think of him as a very weird dentist, that should take the edge off.

OK, this all makes sense. A similar yet somewhat different perspective than what I had but quite useful, thank you....and thank goodness this place is anonymous!

Originally Posted by ECHOES

Yes, and while she sits there with her encouraging words and kind demeanor and warm smile, and wants to know about a fantasy, I want to tell her... but I know part of wanting to tell her is about wanting to make the fantasy (not sexual) real and all of her wanting to hear it is just wanting to hear it and explore it. My part is emotional, her part is therapeutic. Because of this, I can't (or won't) always share because it feels so awful to talk about it with her when she is coming from that therapeutic and curious place that feels so distant to me. I know that she cares and I know that these differences make sense on many levels. Still.

Yes, yes, yes. Very well said. I need to get to the point where I can keep these concepts in my head and get back to the present.

Originally Posted by wheeler

I think, at least for me, just saying things outloud takes away a lot of the power and energy that some thoughts have.

This is a very frustrating thing for me. Saying things aloud on this particular experience took all the positive power out of them and yet I continue to struggle with the negative feelings I experienced after saying things aloud. In fact, that holds true for most negative thoughts I have. Telling of them puts me right back in the experience like I am reliving it, and it only magnifies the bad feelings. I was reading that the retelling of bad experiences is supposed to do the opposite. It is so so frustrating and upsetting.

Originally Posted by wheeler

My T encourages me to talk about anything and everything with her, and then definitely is much easier said than done, but it does help. Alot of times what I think is over-the-top or crazy, she'll normalize for me, or help me understand why I think/feel a particular way. I'm assuming that's what your T is doing for you.

Yes, but I think I need more help with the 'normalizing' and 'understanding why' part. I don't withhold much (as you can see from this thread) but I am not getting the benefit from the 'telling'. I am not feeling like things are being worked through enough in the direction they need to go (understanding and resolving) but rather that I am left flailing in the wind. Part of the problem could be my memory. It's never been great but now it is 10x worse because of the stress I am under. Sometimes it is so bad I can't think straight. So when I come into the session in a traumatized state and if we talk about stuff that ups my anxiety levels even further, then my thought processes are pretty much non-existent. Or if they are, I forget so much of the session that it has pretty much been useless.

Thanks again guys for the helpful responses. I think I'll have to print this off and take it to therapy when my T gets back in January. Sometimes I think much better when writing than speaking.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by athena2011

I have a lot of trouble getting my head around the therapeutic relationship. The feeling that it is real yet unreal. If you are the kind of person who has trouble with emotional regulation - ie: strongly negative feelings towards somebody, strongly positive or total apathy, I think transference in therapy is like some kind of exposure therapy. So, like any relationship where the other person is initially really warm, accepting, caring and empathetic towards you, you are going to think the very best of your T. You get to be head over heels for your T, then the cardinal rule of therapy "don't touch" ensures you can never act on it (not even a hug if you've got a really 'by the book' one). Then they encourage you to fantasize about them, well how can fantasizing end in anything but rejection? Because if the fantasy is about being with them, reality will ultimately creep into your fantasy and snuff it out. If you're the kind of person who will make some kind of advance, your therapist is morally bound to reject you. Or maybe you're so distrustful, you don't say a word about your feelings, even if they are intensely positive. So they will eventually die, the conversations will go downhill and you will feel like they're about to abandon you just like everybody else. So, at some point - all roads lead to rejection. So if you're emotionally dysregulated, one of your huge fears is rejection (because most people run away from you). And here you are - feeling it big time.

It's like they are giving you a massive, massive dose of your worst phobia....but then what - how the heck do they get you out of it?

Can anybody relate to this?

There's a great deal of truth to this. T is a blank slate ready for you to write whatever you need to write, and in that way you act out your worst fears.

It's like there is a stone in the room and you say "That stone is a spider" - because you're afraid of spiders.

How do they get you out of it? They expose you (or more accurately you expose yourself) to your fear over and over again until you get used to it and it's not so scary any more.

[athena2011]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

There's a great deal of truth to this. T is a blank slate ready for you to write whatever you need to write, and in that way you act out your worst fears.

It's like there is a stone in the room and you say "That stone is a spider" - because you're afraid of spiders.

How do they get you out of it? They expose you (or more accurately you expose yourself) to your fear over and over again until you get used to it and it's not so scary any more.

I realize there was a lot of layers to my original question and I also had the niggling sense that my main question in the title was unaddressed, so thank you Cantexplain for providing your take on it. It would appear you agree with me.

[roads]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

There's a great deal of truth to this. T is a blank slate ready for you to write whatever you need to write, and in that way you act out your worst fears.

It's like there is a stone in the room and you say "That stone is a spider" - because you're afraid of spiders.

How do they get you out of it? They expose you (or more accurately you expose yourself) to your fear over and over again until you get used to it and it's not so scary any more.

Oh I like this!!!! I'd never thought of it this way, but it's exactly like this.

Thanks, CantExplain. Gives me lots to think about.