[downsolong]

I'm not sure I will ever find help having been given too little too late by a socially grossly neglectful society and psych science in it infancy that isn't held accountable for results. I have gone through too many first interviews repeating my story looking for results and know how to succeed in life only to get shallow "support" without substance or know how. I've squandered thousands of dollars on meds that will never, I finally concluded, solve life skills deficiencies or income and appreciation problems. My work life has been squandered for lack of adequate help. I've been told by T's that that isn't their job!

I think I hate all Ts and their aplogists they impress me as just empty promise givers out for chump change according to the "real" help they've given me. The black hole money pit of therapy (from my chronically un and under employed perspective) is just one more con game until they PROVE IT! It seems to me they are guilty of simply self congratulatory back slapping for their successes while failing to take and responsibility for their failures, who just conveniently too often just crawl away to die or seek help elsewhere. They fail to police themselves and tend towards guru self delusions and group think. They find it rather too convenient to pass the buck by blaming the victims it seems to me. Ironically the funding for a mental heath system tends to dry up from not getting results.

As discussion tends to be agressively surpressed here way too often I probably won't respond to any replies, assuming anyone gets to read it before deletion. I just felt like grumbling though I wonder what's the point, I'll just be painted with some pap brush off for disagreeing with the experts.

~Down

[(JD)]

Fortunately the psychiatric field is shrinking (pun also intended.) I have never had much use for the psychiatrists, who now only bother to write meds and not offer counseling. Just as well, they weren't good at it in the first place, imo. Aren't neurologists MDs that couldn't cut it, and psychiatrists are neurologists that couldn't cut it.?

I hope you continue to search for that needle in the proverbial haystack, whether they have a degree or not, there must be someone out there who can reach you.

[Rhapsody]

Dear Downsolong, ((((((( HUGS )))))))

I am sorry you are feeling so down on all the T in this world.... while I have spent many years in therapy for my wounds and I have had some not so good T.... I have to say that the T that helped me the most in my recover (and discoveries) were the ones I truly let into my world (my mind).... I found that I had to be willing to do some of the work and not think the T could do it all for me - the T were able to help me for I was willing to seek, even when the work got painful & hard.... I stayed in it, for better or worse.

LoVe,
Rhapsody -

BTW - Please by all means VENT away if it makes you feel better.

[downsolong]

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
I hope you continue to search for that needle in the proverbial haystack

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Hmmmmm, I though for some reason that people deserved better practical efficacy than lottery odds, for themselves, their society, and the world.

Perhaps a torch of scientific accountability for results applied to the haystack of quacks would help.

[sometimes]

No offence, but you use so many words i have trouble following.

Is there a reason? Are you trying to hide something or is it anxiety?

Don't take this to mean i don't like you. Might be my own poor attention abilities.

[(JD)]

Down, if you can get all those quacks into one haystack, I'll hand you the match

downs, i've only had one "good" T. i went to her for a year and she helped me tremendously. the others just want to visit and talk about "stuff".....the Pdoc that helped me so much go the Director's job at the OU school of psychiatry and psychology. so i no longer have her to lean on........................too many quacks in the field. i went to group therapy here at the mental health clinic and it's kinda hard to get any help from a T that isn't as smart as you are. i was appalled. i didn't go back!

[JustBen]

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downsolong said:
I'm not sure I will ever find help having been given too little too late by a socially grossly neglectful society and psych science in it infancy that isn't held accountable for results...The black hole money pit of therapy (from my chronically un and under employed perspective) is just one more con game until they PROVE IT!

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

There have been dozens of studies on the efficacy of psychotherapy, down, and they support the idea that therapy works. (The meta-analysis shows that the average person who gets psychotherapy is better off than about 77% of those who don't, regardless of their diagnosis or problem.) It doesn't work for everybody, and it doesn't make everyone who tries it 100% better. (Neither do most medical treatments.) For most people it does some good. I think there are lots of things that therapy can't do and I admire therapists who are honest enough to tell clients when something "isn't their job".

How would you hold therapists more accountable for results? What does "scientific accountability" mean to you?

i'll answer part of your question, ben.........a T that is truly committed to help you has checks and balances and ways to work with you so that you are on the same page. they aren't there to chat and they aren't in it for the money. i'm older than you and i'm certain that i've been to more Ts than you have. i know you're a student, but i think it's a bit worse IRL than you are aware of. xoxox pat

[kimmydawn]

I guess I'm an odd one. After three t's (two very short term before being with the one now), I've never had one issue. I might add that I've seen a t at our Community Mental Heath Center for more years than I care to admit, have insurance and funds, but never paid a dime (for good reason that I won't go into)...all because of caring, professional t's and community.

I'm not saying everyone has a great experience. I just wanted to share mine, especially since mine will be ending soon and I'm feeling more than grateful.

KD

[SleepsWithButterFlies]

No you are not odd Kimmy..me too ..I liked my T's and have been helped by them ..I think it's both the client as well as the T ...though I will say the cash issue is a killer even with a reduced fee for me..Once I paid 2 dollars a session but that was years ago....the bonus I was able to get out of my agoraphobia ....been out of it for eons

</font><blockquote><div id="quote"><font class="small">Quote:</font>
kimmydawn said:
I guess I'm an odd one. After three t's (two very short term before being with the one now), I've never had one issue. I might add that I've seen a t at our Community Mental Heath Center for more years than I care to admit, have insurance and funds, but never paid a dime (when I should have...for years)...all because of caring, professional t's and community.

kd

KD

</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

[kimmydawn]

((((((((((sleeps))))))))))))

((((((((((everyone)))))))))))

KD

[SleepsWithButterFlies]

Thanks (( KD ))

[JustBen]

Thanks for the response, Faye. Believe me when I say that I don't think I have any special knowledge because I'm a student. In fact, a lot of our work focuses on self-knowledge and self-development. Not that I think that stuff is unimportant, but I don't think we get nearly enough training in looking at things from the client's point-of-view. (In that regard, I've learned more by being a client and listening to you guys than I have in graduate school.)

You mentioned "checks and balances". Here's what I'm trying to get at: What would those checks and balances be like? What are they? Same kind of deal with the "accountability" down mentioned. I know there isn't a lot of accountability among therapists and I'm wondering what it would look like. What would a therapist do to be accountable in your eyes?

[(JD)]

JustBen, perhaps you could get DocJohn to post that question in his Question of the Month forum? Assuming it isn't there already in some form. Sounds like a good one.

(I think having you pose it there would be fine with me!)

[gardenergirl]

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JustBen said:
(In that regard, I've learned more by being a client and listening to you guys than I have in graduate school.)


</div></font></blockquote><font class="post">

Me too.

gg

[Rapunzel]

Ditto. Sometimes I feel like I'm in graduate school so that I'll get a degree and be able to eventually get licensed, but I'm getting my real education from T and from interacting with other people like me, and from independent reading about things that I pick up because it seems like it might have some answers for me.

I don't know how therapists who haven't been clients themselves can possibly understand what it's like well enough to be effective. I've been through several therapists, and was not helped. I'm increasingly mad about all the time wasted with therapists who gave up on me or said I was good enough to be finished or minimized my problems or just looked the other way or scared me off by confronting me without support, etc.

I'm finally starting to make some progress now that I have a T who has been through it herself. It's still not easy, and I still get mad and fight and resist. I sure hope that most clients aren't as difficult as I am, because I'm not sure I would want to deal with me as a client. Or know how to. But I guess that's exactly what I have to figure out, huh? How to deal with myself.

[lenjan]

I know for a fact that psychiatrists are REQUIRED to go through therapy themselves before licensure in their specialty. My first pdoc and I shared a couple of issues, LOL. He was open enough to tell me about them, and about what he'd been through in therapy.

I don't know if T's have the same requirement, but so far I haven't met a T (I've had 3) who hasn't had some huge issue in their life that they've had to confront, presumably through therapy, whether voluntary or not.

Just my .02.

Candy

[Rapunzel]

It depends on what program they are trained in. Some have requirements like that, but not all. I think that everyone has issues at some level, but even if they have had therapy themselves, someone who hasn't had really big issues that interfere with their ability to live their life might never be able to really understand what it's like for those of us who do.

[lenjan]

Of my 3 therapists, one was abused (I'll leave out the method), one grew up with alcoholic, neglectful parents, and one grew up a gay boy in a very small, conservative town. Plenty big enough issues for me!

[Rapunzel]

Yeah, I'd say so. Do you feel they are effective therapists?

[lenjan]

Of the 3, I really liked the two women (alcoholic parents and abuse victim), but I don't think I really got that far with them, despite being with one for 5 years and one for 2 (concurrently at some points). My current T is the gay boy, and in 2.5 years he has taken me thousands of miles farther down the road than the other two did combined.

I got/get along well with all of them, but I think my issue with the women -- and it may very well be just MY issue -- is that I was attracted to different facets of their personalities. One was in grad school at the same time I was, finishing up her doctorate so she could become a licensed psychologist instead of a professional counselor, and so we had academia in common, and all that goes with that. The other one was a very earth-mothery, huggy sort rather than an academic one, and at the points I saw her, that's what I needed.

Gregory is a doctoral student right now, and I get along fabulously well with him because we make each other laugh at our similarities. He's in his late 20s, young enough to be my brother (my oldest sister is 13 yrs older than me, which is what I am to him) and has an absolutely sparkling personality -- but isn't at ALL afraid to push me, hard, as needed. I work my *** off in therapy with him, but we find time at the end of a session to wind down and giggle a bit about something silly. I think I work best of all with him because, just by virtue of gender alone, he can't be a potential "girlfriend" type to me, like the women were. Toward the end with one of them, we spent more of the 50 minutes just chatting about what had been going on with each other's lives than we did in actual therapy.

Do you know the saying "when the student is ready, the teacher appears"? I think that's what happened to me with all of them. Each of them has been able to relate to me in some significant way out of their own past issues, at times when that's what I needed. I do think it's helped.

Candy

[LMo]

I have had 2 psychologists and 1 social worker. The psychologist's training was very evident in comparison to the social worker (who was very nice... just seemed inexperienced in some areas).

I only hold my T as accountable as I hold myself -- when it comes down to it, I'm the one who has to make the effort. I don't expect them to do it for me.

[HelgaDE]

[Post deleted because it violates community guidelines against the discussion of religious activities and religions. - DocJohn]

[HelgaDE]

Oh and heres my story that you two would love to read...
It's posted here but i've corrected some words.

Heres the story:

After being thrown out of a outpatient treatment center for a invalid reason. I became pissed and very frusterated as of the cause for my discharged from the outpatient center. For those who want to know what the reason. During my outpatient psychatric treatment I had an Emergency root canal done to my front top tooth.. I was nearly crying in pain while i was at the treatment center. I was allowed to call my father and to make an early appointment to the dentist A.S.A.P to get this resolved. My father manage to get an appointment on the same day. I was allowed to leave early and to get my tooth fixed. Okay... After getting my root canal done.. The dentist prescribed me 2 medications. 1 was an Antibotic (Penicillin) and the other was a Painkiller, I was still in pain but not as much. Now I had told my Case manager that I was prescribed theses 2 medications... I don't want to hide anything from my case manager. I showed her the bottles to see that I'm not getting them off of the streets. I do not know what was in the pain killer (I think I was on tylenol with codeine) but after doing a urine test... the test came back postive of opium. All hell came lose. I felt that my case manager Failed me by not LISTENING! She told me over the phone to not come in for group in the morning but to come in the afternoon (which group was already over by then). I already know whats up. I already had tons of %#@&#! that was on my mind at the time... Like the death of my mother and how it would be her first year (Feb 24th 2005) of her death. I needed FULL support this time around because I have no other support except my father... which i needed MORE than my father for support. Now the next day I became overly anxious about this ideal. I went to the treatment center and talked to my case manager. I didnt even bare to listen to what she was saying because I already knew that she was discharging me (kicking me out) I was also at the time fueled so much emotions during her lecture. I stumpled out of the office and walked home (Yes the treatment center is so close to my house that i could walk to it!) Without even telling her bye. At home I begain to abuse myself. I Took a razor blade and slashed my shoulders, and back.. I was filled with cuts. I waited for 3 hours to relax. I was on the computer playing games. After 3 hours was up I thought of going back there to try to talk to somebody from the night program (which anybody is welcome). I was doing okay until i saw my Case manager... I became extremely PISSED again! (I was wearing my trench coat at the time to hide my wounds) my emotions were raging up. I was touching my shoulders and the cutt area so i can feel the pain that i was in at the time. While I was there another person was having some problems as well.. He confessed of swallowing some razor blades (he lied about it) and so he as being baker acted... I was about to express my feelings by throwing chairs around and letting them really have it. A nice woman who works for the night program invited me to her office to talk... I was talking about how i was wrongfully discharged and how i needed alot of support for what was coming up. At the time i had my painkillers bottle on me.. I blew up and mention something and i went over and grabbed my pills and attempted to put the entire bottle of pills in my mouth but cried instead. I was in so much pain from being betraded from the program that I was out of control... Of course they baker acted me as well... I was giving the cop a hard time and manage to slip out of the cuffs once... when I was at the hospital. I was put into the quiet room where i calmed down. They gave me some time to cool off, which is what I NEEDED!

They told me to take off my bra and at the time i didn't felt like taking it off.. the nurse told me again and told her no. She threaten to call security and i said fine.. The nurse called security and what do you know... 6 to 8 male SECURITY guards came and blocked me into the quiet room and told me to take off my bra. I was so SHOCKED that i couldnt believe what I was hearing. I had always thought that it was suppose to be Females thats suppose to do this and it was required by law? I felt that i was violated and that i felt that i was sexually harassed in the psychatric hospital.