[SpiritRunner]

yes, I know it's an old movie by now
I wanted to see it because T1 saw it and told me how much it made her think of me, the King's perseverance, his courage, his triumph/overcoming obstacles......but so much happened I never had the chance to until I happened to see it available at our Library the other day. So we watched it, my H and I, and felt so drawn into the King's struggle/victory....and I found myself remembering T telling me that and just thinking, I wish I could tell her I saw it and how it touched my heart....and that it still had the power to touch my heart to think she thought of me when she saw it, that she saw me as a persevering person, an overcomer.
But I can't tell her....and there is a sort of a resigned sorrow I feel about that, a sense of poignant loss, but yet a sense of gain too.....because she did help me see something I had not seen before - that I AM an overcomer - and even though I can't tell her that, it doesn't really matter, because that truth is still mine!
I am overcoming the loss of her and overcoming the painful twists and turns therapy took with her at the end....but in an irony, I am able to overcome that in part because of the strength/resilience she helped me see I had.....
No one really needs to respond to this.....a lot of my posts about T1 are just me working toward a fuller peace and insight and healing from my experience with her and it helps me to move forward, not forget her but forgive her and myself, to let go of the pain and hold on to the love....so thanks for bearing with me!

[Asiablue]

sounds like you're processing a lot of things. And it's nice to think you reminded her of someone who had the tenacity to overcome obstacles. That's an awesome quality.

[CantExplain]

The relationship in that movie is much more like a psychotherapy relationship than a speech-language relationship. It had a lot in common with my own T experience.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

The relationship in that movie is much more like a psychotherapy relationship than a speech-language relationship. It had a lot in common with my own T experience.

you're right...I told H when we were watching it that it seemed like that to me. but then, so much of the King's issue with speech really seemed to be more of a psychological issue stemming from childhood traumas/experiences than it did an actual physical defect, so it perhaps needed that sort of approach.
the actors portrayed the nuances of the relationship excellently, I thought.
I haven't had a T relationship quite like that, but I have had a friendship that resembles that, a sort of mentor friendship that did a LOT to affect powerful change in my life when I was a teen/young adult (she's still a friend, but distance has caused drift.....)
the speech guy took all that King threw at him and kept believing in him; the King threw a ton of anger/hurt at the speech guy, but kept trusting him, defending him when others doubted. I liked that; it was a relationship that stood the test.

[elliemay]

there is an old adage that "when the student is ready, the master will appear".

It's funny the things we end up holding onto from therapy, life, people, even long after they are gone.

Sometimes I think the master doesn't appear until after the student has left them.

The journey of recovery/overcoming continues long after therapy ends.

I can't recall from your posts what transpired between you and your therapist, but it is a tribute to you and your essential resillience that you are holding onto the good the good that happened, and letting the bad fall away.

I found the king's speech to be a fantastic movie. Inspiring, and my therapist also noted that he saw a lot of the king in me. I, of course, corrected him that I was more of a queen. To which he replied, indeed the queen and shook his head.

Even though I deflected the compliment, like you, it stuck with me. The good ones have tremendous faith in the healing capacity of the human spirit, and recognize our desire to tap into that capacity.

They help us to do that, although so many times, both parties stumble and fumble along the way.

Recovery is so much a human endeavor. Frought with all kinds of pitfalls and road blocks, but somehow we make it.

[stopdog]

I hated the speech guy in that movie.

[Perna]

There are always good and bad things about our relationships; even if, at first, we only see the bad. I remember my T saying lots of things would change in me when my stepmother died and it was really true; I suddenly felt "free" and went around singing, "Ding dong the witch is dead. . ." but as time has passed. . .

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I hated the speech guy in that movie.

I can see why you might! Sometimes it was pretty clear the king hated him, or maybe not him precisely, but what he was doing and what it was causing to happen within him.....touching on sore spots and pressing on them. Sometimes it seemed like the speech guy was goading the King, pushing him ...... yeah, I hate when people do that too; I'd react like the King did and get pissed off. But the speech guy was pushing for that effect, to get the King to bring forth his deep, real emotion, because that was where his voice was.....and then the stammer was overcome in that. Sometimes the best friends (or best Ts) aren't the ones who coddle/empathize/sympathize and flood us with soft words and soft actions......but the ones who are hard on us, who push us, who demand we rise up and get our a$$es in gear and be authentic, find and use our real voices.....the ones who do NOT tiptoe around our faults, weaknesses, tender spots, wounds, but confront us and help us confront ourselves. I guess I see the speech guy in this light.....I have a friend now who can really piss me off like the speech guy pissed off the King, because she does not offer me tea and sympathy (she says, you have other friends who will do that for you; I am going to tell you the truth as I see it, and if it hurts, it hurts! I am not going to enable you....nor do I want you to enable me.... so yeah, sometimes I hate her - ok, maybe not hate, but resent, resist, because I want to deny she's right, but can't quite. grrrr. but yet, I think she loves me more than any other friend I have.....)

[stopdog]

I thought he was a bully and I wanted the king to put him in the tower or at least banish him. Seriously I was like don't let that guy do that to you, kingy. I hated him even though the king got through the speech. Then he was a smug bully. My blood pressure rises just remembering it. I had to get up and leave the theatre a couple of times while watching it. I kept wanting really terrible things to happen to speech guy.

If I feel pushed at all rather than having the info put there so I can choose it, I go straight to I would rather lose my way than win your way -which is perhaps why I am such a therapy reject.

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

I can see why you might! Sometimes it was pretty clear the king hated him, or maybe not him precisely, but what he was doing and what it was causing to happen within him.....touching on sore spots and pressing on them. Sometimes it seemed like the speech guy was goading the King, pushing him ...... yeah, I hate when people do that too; I'd react like the King did and get pissed off. But the speech guy was pushing for that effect, to get the King to bring forth his deep, real emotion, because that was where his voice was.....and then the stammer was overcome in that. Sometimes the best friends (or best Ts) aren't the ones who coddle/empathize/sympathize and flood us with soft words and soft actions......but the ones who are hard on us, who push us, who demand we rise up and get our a$$es in gear and be authentic, find and use our real voices.....the ones who do NOT tiptoe around our faults, weaknesses, tender spots, wounds, but confront us and help us confront ourselves. I guess I see the speech guy in this light.....I have a friend now who can really piss me off like the speech guy pissed off the King, because she does not offer me tea and sympathy (she says, you have other friends who will do that for you; I am going to tell you the truth as I see it, and if it hurts, it hurts! I am not going to enable you....nor do I want you to enable me.... so yeah, sometimes I hate her - ok, maybe not hate, but resent, resist, because I want to deny she's right, but can't quite. grrrr. but yet, I think she loves me more than any other friend I have.....)

yep, true that.

[SpiritRunner]

thanks for this, ellie....there's a lot of depth in what you write; I appreciate your wisdom and clarity.
sometimes, I feel like my first T is still teaching me somehow......lessons coming in the form of overcoming loss/grief/deep relational struggles, etc......even though it ended badly and she gave me pain in that, she still gave me a lot of gifts, too, and those are mine. and in a way, it's like those good gifts are still giving.....and there's gifts/lessons/blessings to take even from the hard parts/the pain, sorrow, etc. It's like without her, I see more clearly what she gave me....because she herself isn't here clouding my vision/distracting my heart, perhaps....there's no longer a struggle to maintain the relationship in the now.

Originally Posted by elliemay

there is an old adage that "when the student is ready, the master will appear".

It's funny the things we end up holding onto from therapy, life, people, even long after they are gone.

Sometimes I think the master doesn't appear until after the student has left them.

The journey of recovery/overcoming continues long after therapy ends.

I can't recall from your posts what transpired between you and your therapist, but it is a tribute to you and your essential resillience that you are holding onto the good the good that happened, and letting the bad fall away.

I found the king's speech to be a fantastic movie. Inspiring, and my therapist also noted that he saw a lot of the king in me. I, of course, corrected him that I was more of a queen. To which he replied, indeed the queen and shook his head.

Even though I deflected the compliment, like you, it stuck with me. The good ones have tremendous faith in the healing capacity of the human spirit, and recognize our desire to tap into that capacity.

They help us to do that, although so many times, both parties stumble and fumble along the way.

Recovery is so much a human endeavor. Frought with all kinds of pitfalls and road blocks, but somehow we make it.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I thought he was a bully and I wanted the king to put him in the tower or at least banish him. Seriously I was like don't let that guy do that to you, kingy. I hated him even though the king got through the speech. Then he was a smug bully. My blood pressure rises just remembering it. I had to get up and leave the theatre a couple of times while watching it. I kept wanting really terrible things to happen to speech guy.

If I feel pushed at all rather than having the info put there so I can choose it, I go straight to I would rather lose my way than win your way -which is perhaps why I am such a therapy reject.

isn't there something in between lose my way or win your way? I think the speech guy and the King found some sort of compromise, where it wasn't one giving up his way/self to the other....but it became THEIR way, THEIR work. They were in it, fighting together.
Can't you do that in therapy....a middle ground, a sort of a compromise, say?
on a humorous note, I have a Tshirt I like to wear that says, I'm not stubborn, my way is just better! So I can get what you're saying, stopdog....a sort of a digging in, like, I'm not giving up my way when I think it's right for me just because YOU think your way would work better! I really DO want my way too (and I do get ticked when people call me stubborn, etc....but why not joke about it, I guess) and hate that people seem to think there's something wrong about my way of doing things or my way of being that needs to be fixed. It's like, why not acknowledge there's right in my way too?
Because the truth is, there's right in my way and wrong in someone else's way (like T's way) and there's wrong in my way and right in someone else's way....and where do you find the balance in all that?

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by stopdog

If I feel pushed at all rather than having the info put there so I can choose it, I go straight to I would rather lose my way than win your way -which is perhaps why I am such a therapy reject.

Of course you also get to choose whether or not you assume that adversarial position.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by elliemay

Of course you also get to choose whether or not you assume that adversarial position.

that's true.
you can stop and ask yourself (me asking myself, here) why am I feeling adversarial here, why am I getting into my defensive fighter's stance, and what I am really fighting here? the other person presumably pushing me, am I reacting to them doing that or just perceiving them as doing that ....... or am I really pulling away so something in me doesn't get pressed/pushed/exposed/criticized/condemned/controlled or even, god forbid, changed?
I get adversarial too.....but no one really MAKES me be that way; no one chooses for me to be that way except for me. It's one of my coping mechanisms, one of my old survival tools ...... only I need to learn that many times it comes out, the situation isn't really a battle situation that calls for that tool to be used or that stance to be taken.....

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

that's true.
you can stop and ask yourself (me asking myself, here) why am I feeling adversarial here, why am I getting into my defensive fighter's stance, and what I am really fighting here? the other person presumably pushing me, am I reacting to them doing that or just perceiving them as doing that ....... or am I really pulling away so something in me doesn't get pressed/pushed/exposed/criticized/condemned/controlled or even, god forbid, changed?
I get adversarial too.....but no one really MAKES me be that way; no one chooses for me to be that way except for me. It's one of my coping mechanisms, one of my old survival tools ...... only I need to learn that many times it comes out, the situation isn't really a battle situation that calls for that tool to be used or that stance to be taken.....

Of course, I totally agree with you. I might go on to add, however, that even if someone is deliberately pushing you, or even outright accusing you of something, even then, there is no need to assume a hostile stance. It may, in fact be wholly counterproductive to do so.

I know I have certainly found that effective communication really only takes place if I can get myself out of the way. I bring a whole host of baggage to the table, as does the other person, and, as such, everything gets filtered, interpreted, and ultimately judged.

Even the most hostile attacks may hold a bit of truth in them - some nugget of truth about myself or the world that I didn't realize. You've just got to ignore the medium so to speak and hear the message.

I also know that I have missed a lot of opportunities because I got in my own way. It was a shallow, immature, and unwise way to live.

I'll never stop that gut reaction to things. It's like trying to stop a train. I'm getting much better though at ignoring it.

See, right now, some may think I'm being pedantic and know it allish.

True. Sorry about that.

[SpiritRunner]

yeah, the gut reaction, the inner emotional response/instinct, remains....there is something indelible that can't or isn't necessarily going to be changed in us, but the outward reaction CAN be changed. sometimes, where I get derailed though is condemning myself because that gut reaction is still in there, and I start thinking, ohmygod, I am just as bad as I ever was, I haven't/can't change, same ol' defect, same ol' nasty defective beeotch ...... that is being hostile to myself, and I guess I have to learn to stop THAT adversarial reaction to myself, to my own emotions/feelings/thoughts. I think sometimes the thing is accepting that the inner depths of who you are/your personality/your emotional tendencies, etc may remain ..... while learning better ways to deal with/use/counteract those in communication/relations with others ..... that's what CAN change.
no, I don't think you sound pedantic/know it all ish ...... I think you are speaking from the voice of experience and with tact.
now, sometimes I react to my H because he DOES sound that way to me .... and he is sometimes; he can sound like an exasperated parent telling a teenager what he thinks should be so clear and simple! But sometimes that's just my reaction to what I perceive, not to what is. Or even, my reaction to myself, as it were ......because I am well aware I DO sound know-it-all and smarta$$ sometimes, even to myself.....but I feel resentful having the tables turned perhaps when I think someone else sounds that way to me.
sometimes I wonder if there really is reality.....or if it's just perception on each side and reality is something not quite seen because of the perceptions, layers of perception, judgment, reaction, instinct....or if reality is actually a combination of all the layers of perceptions, etc.
but then, our perception is reality to us.....a subjective reality, but a reality, nonetheless. so the trick might be trying to be objective about our own subjective perceptions, as well as understanding that others' perceptions of themselves/us is also subjective, and being objective about THAT, and balancing our reactions (and our reactions to our reactions) accordingly.
all right, now that I've twisted myself into a mental pretzel, I'm going to stop and go to the gym.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

that's true.
you can stop and ask yourself (me asking myself, here) why am I feeling adversarial here,

.

Because therapy is adversarial. I am not saying anyone makes me respond any way. But it is an adversarial process from what I have experienced and read (and seen in the movie).

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Because therapy is adversarial. I am not saying anyone makes me respond any way. But it is an adversarial process from what I have experienced and read (and seen in the movie).

it can certainly be that way and be experienced that way, and I have definitely had moments it was that way for me. but I don't suppose it ALWAYS has to be, or is, that way ..... if we change the way we view/react to the experience, perception of the experience.
I tended to think of therapy as that it's supposed to be working partnership or some sort of alliance, where T was working for and with me, rather than a battle where I was fighting her - or that we were fighting on the same side, with the purpose to help me overcome in the battle within me. Yeah, T2 turned into a sparring partner sometimes, but that was fun mostly, humor and wit ..... and she also challenged the heck out of me. And sometimes I think I found myself pushing, arguing, trying to influence or yes, manipulate, and see if T would really take the bait and it would turn into an outright battle ..... but neither of them let it become a battleground.
The battleground/battle (war) was/is in ME......

[stopdog]

I still wanted the movie to end with the speech guy banished. Or impaled.

[pbutton]

Originally Posted by stopdog

Because therapy is adversarial. I am not saying anyone makes me respond any way. But it is an adversarial process from what I have experienced and read (and seen in the movie).

Generally, from what I've read, therapy is supposed to be an alliance, not an adversarial process.

I'm speaking as someone who fights it, but I know the distrust and fear is something in me that needs to be repaired. Most therapists are not dangerous. Only the really crappy ones contain an element of danger.

[unaluna]

Law is adversarial. I was trying to do therapy as I did systems analysis and programming - it's really better now that i'm doing therapy as therapy. Like they say, Pi are round, cornbread square.

[SpiritRunner]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I still wanted the movie to end with the speech guy banished. Or impaled.

were you perchance thinking of your T then (I don't know how long you've been with)?
personally, I was happy to learn at the end that they remained good friends till death (ha, you know, the happily ever after thing, yadda yadda, but not entirely that). I guess I was happy about that because I thought that with 2 people who had done such intense work and shared so much together that it made sense for the bond to continue and to benefit both of them ..... not just be intense and then screech to a halt, or dissolve and drift away, or end up divisive and fractured and abruptly, angrily cut off. I like that the bond was deep and real and lasting.
The speech guy really did do a good service not only for his king, but in doing thus for his king, he helped his country, because the king was able to accomplish what he could not have without the speech guy's help. And there was the added factor of the king not really having or knowing what it was like to have a friend, to be liked/accepted/treated as a regular person, to have a real connection man to man (not king to subject), and the speech guy fulfilled that need, I believe. So I suppose I was happy to think the king got that benefit out of it, as well.
There were lots of things the speech guy helped the king overcome besides just his speech.....like the stuff, psychological stuff, behind. I suppose I liked that deeper aspect of the whole story.
The king would have, in my humble opinion, been cutting his own nose off to spite his face if he had behaved nastily and ungratefully toward the speech guy ....
But then, to each their own in their choice of friends and helpers ...... someone viewed as a friend by one because of certain actions/words/character, can be viewed very oppositely by someone else. The same thing comes off differently to different people ......
(for instance, some people like me and think I'm a good friend, some people think I am a selfish beeotch and would probably like to see me impaled too or at least go away where they can't see/hear me - that is what it is. can't be liked by/have approval from all.....though I don't always manage to be as nonchalant as that might sound about it....)
anyway, this all was a good discussion....thanks

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by SpiritRunner

The king would have, in my humble opinion, been cutting his own nose off to spite his face if he had behaved nastily and ungratefully toward the speech guy ....

See, I would not equate a good impaling with ungrateful. Plus they get paid so I do not worry about gratitude.

I sat there thinking it was only because the king put the duty to country before himself or speech guy totally impaled.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I hated the speech guy in that movie.

He was manipulative for sure.

The movie took great liberties with their actual relationship. The book doesn't show them as nearly as close as the movie did, and Jeffrey Rush was definitely playing the part much more strong minded and manipulative than the man actually was. (I don't really recommend the book though. Not nearly as interesting as the movie. Nothing like a little poetic license.)