June 5th session, Part 2 of 3

*****Trigger for religious material*****

“I don’t deserve this.” There’s your core belief. Okay, we can talk about what’s fed it, and we have some. And maybe there’s some other big issues, incidences that you need to talk about. But we know that’s the core belief. And so the work comes in changing that core belief and choosing not to accept it anymore. And why would you do that? Because you believe now…what? What do you believe differently now than you did 6-8 months ago?
Well, I believe I am more worthy than I used to…overtly; but underlying, I realized Sunday that it’s still there.
But what does the little bit of belief that you hang onto that you are worthy what is it based on?
I don’t know.
Well, maybe that’s where the problem comes in...is that you’re trying under your own will; you are not basing it on anything. You’re just trying to do it under your will…that I’m just going to believe differently. It’s kinda like going on a diet and deciding I’m going to lose weight by just not eating…and I’ll do it with my willpower…I have great willpower…until you go all day long without eating and you’re starving and can’t stand it anymore…
And you eat the entire house.
Right. Okay, it’s kinda like that. What are you basing this belief on? What’s changing your mind about yourself?
I think it’s been this process.
In what way?
I guess just hearing for one of the few times in my life that “you are worth something“. You tell me God thinks I’m worth something.
Okay but do you…well, I can sit here and tell you that…
Do I believe it? Some days I do and some days I don’t.
Okay, which, for the most part, we all can say that, you know. But that’s the process of…if you go through each and every experience that you can think of, at the end of processing and talking about it, I can say you’re worthy, you deserve it, you’re special, you’re loved, God loves you. All of that doesn’t matter. I mean, all of these things that you experience doesn’t matter. The truth is, God loves you period. Whatever message you got from that is not true. But you have to base that…I mean whether I tell you that 100 times or 10,000 times, it’s not going to make any difference until you get to a point where you know who God is and accept what he’s offering and accept the grace. Are you a perfect person? Have you done anything wrong? Have you sinned? Absolutely. Like me. Like the rest of us. We fall short of the grace of God. We all have. But somewhere down the line we’ve got to accept the gift he’s offering. We can’t change the past. We can’t make it go away, but realize it doesn’t really matter. That the self-hatred or self-effacing or whatever it is you feel when you think of the past whether its because of something somebody did to you or something you did, you’ve got to…when you think of that…what comes to your mind? Is it, you know, I can’t believe I did that, I can’t believe they did that to me, I hate myself, I’m worthless? Or does it…what comes to your mind is…I can’t believe the grace of God and I can’t believe that he loves me and accepts me just the way I am. There’s nothing that I have to do; there’s nothing that I have to prove.
Well maybe I just don’t believe that.
Well, what’s going to cause you to believe it?
I don’t know.
Nothing. It’s one of those things…just like; maybe we look at it like this: when somebody does something to us, something harmful, painful…we look at it as we…that causes us to feel bad about ourselves, to lose ourselves.
Well, we choose to lose ourselves.
Well, not…we believe…we believe that it’s true. And we believe that if it is true, then the result is that I’m worthless, I’m unlovable, whatever our core belief is, okay. So we look at the opposite, God loving us, his grace, his mercy, how he feels about us, something has to cause us to believe that, something has to happen to cause us to believe that and like, you know, your mother being the way she was or the kids at school, whatever it was, there has to be a cause, and its not a cause, it’s what we…choose.
Then why don’t I just choose to be better?
I don’t know.
Then I can just magically heal myself.
No. You can’t heal yourself. Not from this. I can’t heal you from it. There’s only one source for that and it’s not magical. It’s truth. In my case, I just chose to accept it until I believed it. I chose to treat myself like it was true until I believed it.
I thought that was what I‘ve been doing.
Well, you stumble and fall; you’re a human being. Sunday was not a good day; you were sick.
Well, actually, all of last week was not good.
So when we have bad days, when we have bad weeks, we have a tendency to go back into the negative. But that’s kinda human nature. But it doesn’t…what we have to remember and accept is it doesn’t change anything. God is the same today, yesterday, and forever; he doesn’t have moods, he doesn’t have limitations, he’s slow to anger, the character of God is what we have to remember. Just because we don’t feel it or don’t believe it at the moment doesn’t make it…untrue. What we have to accept is that it is true, period. It doesn’t matter whether I’m having a good day or a bad day…it doesn’t matter whether my coworker has cussed me out or talked behind my back or said something ugly to me. I choose and I’m going to learn not to let other people…
Determine my self worth.
Exactly. Determine my value. My value doesn’t change, even when I do something wrong or stupid, my value stays the same.
That, I feel okay with. I’m not necessarily letting others do that to me anymore.
So you’re letting who or what do that to you?
Myself, I guess. Is there any other answer?
So you’re choosing to let your old belief system take over. I’m not worthy…
Yeah, because it’s not other people that’s causing me feel that way.
So why are you choosing that?
I don’t know.
Well I think that’s something you’ve got to discover. Why? You can say it’s because I believe I’m not worthy, but then you’re just in this vicious circle. You’ve got to take a step out of the circle and choose to do something different, choose to believe something different, choose to accept something different. What would happen if you began to believe you were worthy?
I would feel better, for one.
What else?
I would stand up for myself.
What else?
I’m not sure, but in a way, I feel like I’m doing that right now…
Okay.
…because you kinda blasted me at the beginning of the session and I’ve been off ever since. I don’t know…I just know that’s what I’ve already experienced.
Okay, that you can stand up for yourself.
And you (I) feel better (said in unison). Because, Lord knows, I did. And still do off and on.
Okay. So why would you ever avoid that?
I don’t know. It’s not logical to me.
Well, none of this is logical. Logically, why would we accept the negative instead of the positive?
I know one thing I’m trying to deal with that’s different from in the past is actually dealing with feelings. I don’t have much recent experience within the past couple of years dealing with feelings.
Okay, but what do you know about feelings?
That they can lie.
What else?
That they’re there.
And that you don’t base who you are on feelings…and maybe that’s what trips us up and I say us because I think that’s one of the hardest things for people to block out…because what’s my rule? Feelings are not good, not bad, not right, not wrong, they should never be ignored and they should never be left in charge. So we’re told, don’t ignore your feelings, but don’t leave them in charge. Well, what happens when we start concentrating on feelings? They kinda take over and we believe what we feel.
I guess the reason why I brought up what I brought up last week is because I feel…yes I feel, like there’s something there inside of me that needs to come out, for what it’s worth, I thought that could happen through grieving. I feel like there’s something that needs to be grieved, but I don’t exactly know what it is. That’s why it all came up last week. I still feel that way.
Then grieve.
*Evil look*
Don’t try to control when, where, how, and why.
When I was upset Sunday, I cried a little. Not sobbing, but I made sure I didn’t stifle it, I let it come. Lasted about 5 minutes and went away.
Well, that's okay.
I thought it was a start.
Exactly. Maybe not having expectations.
Right, I wasn’t trying to say last week that I need to cry here, per se. It needs to come out, wherever it does. I figure if I’m talking about stuff that hurts in here, then it’s likely that it would come out in here. Then I was trying to find out how it would be safe (wavery voice).
Why couldn't it...why wouldn't it be safe?
Because I've gotten used to people, places, period, not being safe.
Well, Chopin, what else do I have to do to get this...to you for you to feel safe?
There isn't. It's my problem. I know that.
Then take a chance, take a risk.
That's what was I was going to tell you, I realize that's what I'm going to have to do.
I think you are going to have to take lots of risks...and I think you've got to choose to take it whether you feel safe or not. Because you may not feel safe until you take that risk. And I want you to...eventually...not now...but I want you to take a risk somewhere where you don't feel safe because I want you to realize it's okay...
No matter what...
No matter what. That yes, don't let your feelings be in charge, but don't be afraid of them and that you have a right to them, no matter what anybody else thinks or says about them. Somebody else says, "You look weird when you cry." We all look weird when we cry, well I look weird after I cry, but we all look weird at some point in time, and if somebody thinks that...I mean, there's always somebody that's going to think we're weird, or that we look weird, or that we act weird, or that we are weird.

Stay tuned for our exciting conclusion (not really )...

Am I overreacting in being so triggered by this? Admittedly, there's still one more section to go, but...?

She kind of preaches a lot. I used to have a Christian T, so this brings back some memories.

I don't think you are overreacting. Being triggered isn't something we have a lot of control over.

She has some very valid points, from a Christian perspective, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be triggering. It is okay to be triggered, particularly when discussing how our habits of thinking are often very skewed and how giving it over to God's grace is what we need to do for ourselves. So much easier said than done; she knows that; we know that and it is frightening to give over that control. This is hard stuff.

The problem I have here is that while I am a Christian, my views are a bit different from hers (I am a liberal, progressive Christian; she's a more traditional, moderate evangelical Christian), but I feel as if she wants me to ascribe to her way of thinking...that I'm not going to heal until I do.

To me "truth" is somewhat relative. If we "know" truth, what is the point of faith?

maybe i'm anticipating, but so the whole point of her giant speech in part 1 was that time running out was unsafe?? idk.

plus she disproved her point about belief herself with the diet example! we build self-esteem and worth by meeting small challenges, not by one big decision, not in one fell swoop.

this is not a good r/s, chopin. I wouldn't even call it therapy, not this session. you're never allowed to speak, barely finish a sentence. you're diminished. you don't live up to her expectations. This is just a repetition of your past relationships with women. And from what you've told us of her r/s with her H - well, she's locked into something too, idk what exactly. I know she has her good moments, but this is not one of them. And if this is typical, I say get out, get a MAN. I think a man could be safer for you. You feel safe with H, right? I think that is more important. I am sorry to be so negative, but I do mean to be supportive.

I couldn't handle this "therapy," Chopin. The T I see is a cognitive behaviorist and he's helped me to change my negative thought patterns (many of them anyway), and I think he's mentioned God twice. Once in response to something I said, and once to mention that he struggles with his belief in God, but people coming out 'normal' from a childhood like mine are one of the reasons that he has for believing in God.

My T went to seminary and I told him from the get go...I didnt want to hear any fire and damnation, as I can get that anywhere around here. We rarley discuss religion unless I bring it up. I too am a Christian, but thats as far as I label it. Your T is older and her belief system is therfore probably a little more old school then yours, not to mention your past vs hers. Her way is not the ONLY way. Your relationship with GOD is between you and GOD. She is NOT a better Christitian then you , shes a sinner just like the rest of us and unless she has a red GOD batphone and speaks to him directly..... then your faith is just as valid as hers. Wishing you wel my dear. You are a good person and you are worthy in the eyes of many and GOD. SO "but I feel as if she wants me to ascribe to her way of thinking...that I'm not going to heal until I do." So I call BS in this one.

My t and I have the same religion (Buddhist); it's one of the reasons why I chose her. But, we never talk about religion- or at least very rarely- so I find the idea of talking about god in a therapy session rather off putting. Especially all that preaching at you she is doing. Don't you go to church for that?

I agree with Hankster that- while I know you love your t and she clearly feels deeply for you- this is not a good therapeutic relationship. Actually, I have thought this for quite a while. I disagree with H that I don't' think you necessarily need a male t, you do just someone who will work with your thought processes and not dump all her cr@p all over you during your paid session.

Thanks for putting this out there, it's really interesting to get a peek into someone else's session. As always, I greatly admire the hard work and thought you put into your therapy.

As an aside, as a trained scientist (before I went into medicine) I think it's fine to pick things apart. Some people are "lumpers" and some people are "sorters". Neither is right and neither is wrong. You don't miss the forest for the trees, you just see trees. And flowers, and squirrels and blades of grease. The forest-lookers miss all that

I'm not religious so I don't know what to make of the references there.

But one thing that strikes me overall is that she gives you a LOT back, which you are interpreting as talking too much. The thing that usually irritates me in T with all of my T's is that they don't say ENOUGH to me, don't get me enough feedback, are "stingy" with their words. So I guess I see her general approach as generous.

I am not sure I see where she is interrupting you. To me it seems like a very flowing conversation. But by all means you should tell her to STFU when you want to talk.

WOW! wow. so there was a study a few years back, that showed men interrupted women more than vice versa. so this is interesting - you say you like all the info given, because usually your T's are stingy. But the value of what was said is far below the level of advice you yourself have offered here many times. but you discount the subject matter right away. so, my analysis is (not that anyone asked for it!) is that you primarily identified with the manner of speaking of the T, whereas the women took the interrupting correspondingly HARDER. of course, this is only anecdotal evidence, but... interesting!

I know you're trying to be supportive, Hank.

This session was typical in some ways:
1. She tends to talk a lot and ramble.
2. She believes my healing will only come through God...not by anything she or I do.
3. She is big on her "feelings" rule.
But rather aberrant in others:
1. She usually does not interrupt me.
2. She is usually not actively argumentative.
3. She usually doesn't lose her cool.
4. She is normally not "short"...i.e. "I feel like I need to grieve." "Then grieve."

Something (call it God, providence, a sixth sense, whatever) told me to record this session. I'm starting to think she was triggered. The way she emphasized (through voice tone) how much she thought about my last session, I think she was triggered. Control freak vs. control freak.

That being said, in part 3, you'll see that she was actively trying to push me. I'll get to part 3 sometime this afternoon, after my boss leaves.

She doesn't profess to be a better Christian; she usually talks about how unworthy of God's grace she is herself. She usually says that she considers it a privilege to be involved in my healing process. I stand firm that my healing is a collaboration between God and me with T as the facilitator.

Actually, I don't attend church. There is no church that believes the way I do. I do like your analogy of lumpers vs. sorters. I definitely like to sort!!

Some places where I trail off like this... That's the interrupting, or at times she started talking before I finished, but I finished my statements, brief as they were. I don't mind her "talkativeness" most of the time.

I am amazed at how much your T talks. Mine mostly listens and then asks a question. Any time I ask him a question, he asks a question right back & helps me find my own answer.

Does she let you talk at all?

Read my comment above.

Did u want to talk about religion with her? The way I read the first part, you want to feel safe with her in the office so you can(cry?) feel your feelings. Right?

Chopin...are you ok?? I am a little concerned...I would freak out if everyone was critiquing my session. I know you posted it for support, and are open to peoples insights, but I guess I just want to make sure that doesn't trigger you more than the session itself.

Yes, I sought out a Christian counselor on purpose, but like I've said, there aren't too many people who believe exactly like me.

I'm fine, but I really appreciate your concern. It's not triggering, it's actually helping me see where some issues are and how I need to handle them. I don't let what other people say influence my opinions, per se, but the feedback is helpful. Even T has said that I shouldn't even care what she thinks when it comes right down to it.

Something was wrong in yesterday's session. I'm trying to figure out what it is.

I have some thoughts but I would really like to see how it concludes first so I don't stick my foot in my mouth.

I've read it, still this doesn't look like any therapy I've ever seen...
First part- I was kind of lost
Second part- reminds me of the talks my pastor gives- and they are for free.

I don't believe Ts should be talking that much and TBH if my T told me only God can help me I would ask him why then I should go (and pay) him. But that's just me.

Looking for the last part- cause man this is interesting. Cheers.

Don't be skeered! Chime in.

Last part will come a little later.

Her answer to the purpose of T's in a Christian world (because trust me, I've asked what you said ) is that they are there for guidance and support. She said once, if it was as easy as opening a Bible, there would be no need for therapists. Just her two cents.

Chopin- my XT rarely talked and my new T talks a lot and I prefer it that way , it feels more interactive.... We bounce ideas amoung us and I like it that way.

I don't fully understand all the religious stuff and therapy here, but I hope you figure out what is bothering you.

Iam with SD I don't understand the religon thing either. Still looking forward to part 3 though. Hang in there chop.

I haven't read the threads yet Chopin, but I was just wondering something. What do you think your T would say if she saw your threads? It seems kind of unethical to me for you to post the transcripts of your sessions, especially if your T doesn't know you're recording them. I think it's fine to post what we remember about our sessions, even the details of what T said, but this seems like "too much" to me. I don't know. It's just my opinion and has nothing to do with your need to tell, and to get support. It's probably not against any PC rules, but I feel embarrassed for your T unless she gave you her permission. Sorry if I'm being a downer on this. You can tell me to mind my own business about it! And I DO support you because I know it's important for you to process your session this way.

My T is a talker too. I prefer it that way. A T that just sat there would be terrible uncomfortable for me. I need the interaction and discussion and I don't mind if T does a lot of the talking.