[tkdgirl]

Is there a point to doing therapy if one is engaging in self-sabotage?

If you know you're going to self-sabotage should you tell your T ahead of time?

I'm debating if I should just quit my T. Maybe I'm not ready for this.

[CantExplain]

What does your T say?

I did that last week. I told my T in a phone call the day before what we needed to talk about in session. When we started, I told him how I had planned in the intervening day between the phone call and the session to distract him to keep him from talking to me about the things I mentioned in the phone call. He thanked me and let me know he wouldn't force me to talk about anything, but also that he wouldn't participate in the distraction. When I tried my distraction later, he smiled and waited. I was a little irritable and said, "hey, that's both interesting AND funny." He actually agreed it was funny and interesting and maybe we could talk about it later.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by CantExplain

What does your T say?

I'm not sure if your refering to the sabotage or quiting?

I think we are probably all a bit guilty of sabatoging our progress at least once. Not knowing what specifically you are doing that you consider sabatoge, it is a bit hard to know how to reply.

My sabatoge has most consistently been through suicide attempts; that's pretty sabatoging I guess. But the therapy was vital in getting me through those impulses and finding ways to cope without completely imploding. My husband would directly sabatoge his own therapy by "forgetting" his appointments on a very regular basis. But T hung in there with him to get him past his anxieties and fears that were leading to his running from therapy, and it paid off. He now attends regularly.

Therapy can work to help you drop those kind of behaviors so you can move forward. If you drop the therapy, will you be able to drop the behaviors on your own? Do you really want to continue doing this? Things to think about.

One thing my husband and I both learned is that being open and honest with T about what was going on enabled him to teach us better coping strategies so we could let go of the sabatoging behaviors. Running away from facing this really will just serve to prolong and reinforce what you already know are behaviors that need to change.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I think we are probably all a bit guilty of sabatoging our progress at least once. Not knowing what specifically you are doing that you consider sabatoge, it is a bit hard to know how to reply.

My sabatoge has most consistently been through suicide attempts; that's pretty sabatoging I guess. But the therapy was vital in getting me through those impulses and finding ways to cope without completely imploding. My husband would directly sabatoge his own therapy by "forgetting" his appointments on a very regular basis. But T hung in there with him to get him past his anxieties and fears that were leading to his running from therapy, and it paid off. He now attends regularly.

Therapy can work to help you drop those kind of behaviors so you can move forward. If you drop the therapy, will you be able to drop the behaviors on your own? Do you really want to continue doing this? Things to think about.

One thing my husband and I both learned is that being open and honest with T about what was going on enabled him to teach us better coping strategies so we could let go of the sabatoging behaviors. Running away from facing this really will just serve to prolong and reinforce what you already know are behaviors that need to change.

Farmgirl, thanks for your reply. Definately some things to think about.

I'm about to go on a liquor and drug bender. I already made a commitment to my sister. I don't want to have to choose between family and T.

My theory, if I'm not willing to help myself, I shouldn't be wasting my T's time.

[carly011]

I self sabotage too, mine is in the form of self harm, suicidal thoughts/tendencies, and continuing with my eating disorder.

I keep going to therapy, because without my T i dont even have a chance of getting better. I may sabotage, but one of these times i am going to succeed and get better!!!

I'm confused. You made a commitment to your sister to go on a bender? (I ask because you said you don't want to choose between family and T, so I'm assuming T would be against this and therefore your sister is encouraging it?)

I'm not so sure you are unwilling to help yourself or you wouldn't be asking these questions in the first place, right? T needs to know this is going on in order to help you past this. Can you find something healthier to do that won't leave you with the regrets that you seem to already be feeling?

I'm the queen of self sabotage. When things are too really or too much I try to force the other to bail... Pushing button until they leave , usually because I fear they will not
Care about me or worse care... I can't be hurt anymore
I can't take it

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by farmergirl

I'm confused. You made a commitment to your sister to go on a bender? (I ask because you said you don't want to choose between family and T, so I'm assuming T would be against this and therefore your sister is encouraging it?)

I'm not so sure you are unwilling to help yourself or you wouldn't be asking these questions in the first place, right? T needs to know this is going on in order to help you past this. Can you find something healthier to do that won't leave you with the regrets that you seem to already be feeling?

Yes I told my sister I would party with her and made a financial commitment. My T only approves of drugs/alcohol if it's controlable which for me its all or nothing, in this case all.

I can't say no to my sister, and I don't necessarily even think I want to. Your probably right that there will be regret, I most likely know this already as you pointed it out. I just don't see the point in seeing T if I already made my decision. To go complain about a choice I consciously made afterwords just seems like a waste. Thus eliminate T.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by LolaCabanna

I'm the queen of self sabotage. When things are too really or too much I try to force the other to bail... Pushing button until they leave , usually because I fear they will not
Care about me or worse care... I can't be hurt anymore
I can't take it

Glad I'm in good company. LC I wish you didn't understand it so well, its a rough path.

[rainboots87]

If we were already doing things right, why would we need therapy? My T's major message to me over the past few weeks has been not to sabotage myself. I'm not trying to mess things up for myself, but it's hard to do things differently. I hope to keep working on this as I transition to another therapist. I think therapy is worth it if you want to change and you're willing to try your best. Sometimes it takes a few (zillion) tries, but as long as I keep trying, then yay me.

[edit] Just read mroe of the thread and saw the bender "committment" thing. Who says you can't change your mind about that? If nothing else, at least be aware of what you're doing and why. For my own issues, just being aware of my habits and putting some distance between the urge and the action helped a lot. It made it less automatic and slowly helped me make changes. If drugs/alcohol are something you want to be different in your life, I would encourage you to explore what you're getting from it and how else you might get the feeling you're looking for (in a healthy way) or just a substitution that probably won't feel the same at all but could be an improvement to your quality of life. I hope you think about what you're wanting in your life and how you want to use therapy as a means to achieve that.

[stopdog]

The client is not wasting the therapist's time. You pay them for it. You may be wasting your time and money, but not that of the therapist.

[unaluna]

why throw good money after bad? what if this is the "bender" that gives you a stroke? WHAT KIND OF SISTER DO YOU HAVE??!! Why is she more important than you? if the money is already gone, then it's gone - you don't HAVE to have the hangover, too - what good would that do?

(full disclosure - I get such miserable hangovers and depression and do such idiotic things under the influence, like get married, that I do not have a drug and liquor problem. food and exercise, however, are issues for me.)

I totally get the self-sabotage. I just spent the last five years afraid to do anything because even if I thought I was doing something positive, it would turn negative, that's how sneaky a self-saboteur I am. this at least is fairly out in the open. I would say, keep going to T. some will ask you to stop abusing substances. mine asked me to stop seeing my family origin. for thirty years they asked me to stop seeing my family of origin. they were so right, I was so wrong. you're not choosing between T and family, you're choosing between YOURSELF and your family.

[lostmyway21]

I self sabatoge through self medicating. I tell him every time I do it. It must drive him crazy too. I only do it because I hate being stable for too long. BUT at the same time one of biggest goals of therapy is stability.

[SpiritRunner]

Who says you have to do this with your sister? If it's not a commitment in your best interests, or even in hers, and it doesn't sound that way, you do not have to keep a commitment like that.
And who says you have to be committed to self-sabotage either?
Self-sabotage is like a self-fulfilling prophecy, you end up doing/being what you think and what you think you'll do/be ... you think, oh well, that's what I do, I sabotage myself, so then actions follow thoughts/beliefs. And then you think, see, I sabotaged myself again; that's just what I do, guess that's the way I am/it is.
But why stay stuck there? Why not stay committed to a course of action, like therapy, that will help you learn how to stop making such self-fulfilling prophecies?
I think everyone makes mistakes and sabotages themselves, intentionally and/or unintentionally both. God only knows how many times I have done both! But it doesn't need to be allowed to be a pattern, a belief, a label you've given yourself .... and if it is pattern and a belief, why, it's a pattern and a belief that can be changed! Why sabotage that hope of change by not giving it a chance to happen in you?

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by hankster

why throw good money after bad? what if this is the "bender" that gives you a stroke? WHAT KIND OF SISTER DO YOU HAVE??!! Why is she more important than you? if the money is already gone, then it's gone - you don't HAVE to have the hangover, too - what good would that do?

(full disclosure - I get such miserable hangovers and depression and do such idiotic things under the influence, like get married, that I do not have a drug and liquor problem. food and exercise, however, are issues for me.)

I totally get the self-sabotage. I just spent the last five years afraid to do anything because even if I thought I was doing something positive, it would turn negative, that's how sneaky a self-saboteur I am. this at least is fairly out in the open. I would say, keep going to T. some will ask you to stop abusing substances. mine asked me to stop seeing my family origin. for thirty years they asked me to stop seeing my family of origin. they were so right, I was so wrong. you're not choosing between T and family, you're choosing between YOURSELF and your family.

For the record my sister is awesome and is in no way forcing me into anything. She is the only person who is unconditionally supportive of me and would do anything for me. She took a lot of crap, so that I wouldn't have to. It's only right that I support her in however she wants to be supported now that she is struggling.

[unaluna]

i'm sorry, but if you guys were fat, would you feel the same way about going on an eating binge with her?

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by tkdgirl

For the record my sister is awesome and is in no way forcing me into anything. She is the only person who is unconditionally supportive of me and would do anything for me. She took a lot of crap, so that I wouldn't have to. It's only right that I support her in however she wants to be supported now that she is struggling.

The line "it's only right" really troubles me. No matter what, a healthy person has boundaries around what they are willing to do and what they are not willing to do. To be able to say to those we love, "I love you and I would do anything to help you, but I won't do THAT" is perfectly acceptable. And then there's the question of really whether joining in on a drug and alcohol binge is really supporting someone, as opposed to colluding in their self destruction.

I think that your distorted thinking about what love and support means is something you could fruitfully address in therapy. Maybe this binge is an opportunity to explore with your T about how you think about these things.

[unaluna]

thanks lmtl. I really am sorry, tdkgirl. I didn't mean to insult your sister, I was just meant to ask why she wasn't more aware of how this would hurt you. also, I wonder if we are triggering people on the couch by talking about such things so freely, I am also guilty there. but I see from another thread title maybe someone has already brought that up?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by tkdgirl

For the record my sister is awesome and is in no way forcing me into anything. She is the only person who is unconditionally supportive of me and would do anything for me. She took a lot of crap, so that I wouldn't have to. It's only right that I support her in however she wants to be supported now that she is struggling.

When the the annals of codependency are published, let this be the inscription at the beginning of the book. Dude, that is not healthy relationship behavior. Like LMTL, the "it is only right." caught my interest as well. Your mental work here is interesting. You are sending the message that the behavior you're planning is self-sabotaging and self-destructive, but we find out that your narrative is that you are only doing this because you are so deeply virtuous and selfless and committed to doing what's right.... for your sister.

Part of the twisted fun of a codependent, in contrast to a truly pure addict, is that they find a way to call their illness virtue. I, personally, am an expert at it, and I applaud your skills. Honestly, though, I think it's far more likely, though less romantic, that you just want to get wasted to numb your feelings which is the opposite of T, and if you can find an excuse to run further from your feelings by abandoning T altogether, even better.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by hankster

i'm sorry, but if you guys were fat, would you feel the same way about going on an eating binge with her?

You totally lost me here. I don't understand the comparisson.

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

The line "it's only right" really troubles me. No matter what, a healthy person has boundaries around what they are willing to do and what they are not willing to do. To be able to say to those we love, "I love you and I would do anything to help you, but I won't do THAT" is perfectly acceptable. And then there's the question of really whether joining in on a drug and alcohol binge is really supporting someone, as opposed to colluding in their self destruction.

I think that your distorted thinking about what love and support means is something you could fruitfully address in therapy. Maybe this binge is an opportunity to explore with your T about how you think about these things.

Yeah I have session tomorrow, that I'm still debating whether I should go to or not. I suppose this could be an interesting topic. Your viewpoint definately sparked something.

Originally Posted by hankster

thanks lmtl. I really am sorry, tdkgirl. I didn't mean to insult your sister, I was just meant to ask why she wasn't more aware of how this would hurt you. also, I wonder if we are triggering people on the couch by talking about such things so freely, I am also guilty there. but I see from another thread title maybe someone has already brought that up?

Hankster no worries, I didn't feel insult. I actually appreciate the different views, your making me think. I think my sister is more broken than I am and honestly I act like the toughest most bulletproof person around everyone IRL. Thanks for the trigger notice, I will add one.

[ListenMoreTalkLess]

Originally Posted by tkdgirl

Yeah I have session tomorrow, that I'm still debating whether I should go to or not. I suppose this could be an interesting topic.

I don't see any reason, except being a chicken (I say this in the nicest possible way, I am not mocking you), for you not to go. Except the one that Snuffle articulated so beautifully in her post. If you can construct a choice where you can truly believe it's T versus your sister, well then of course you will choose your sister. Because you are so virtuous and all that.

Seriously, though, go to your appointment and deal with this like an adult. Talk to your T about what you are planning to do and why. I don't think the issue is so much whether you go on a bender (although, as others have pointed out, it has the potential for one or both of you to become really hurt), but to explore what's underneath it.

[tkdgirl]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

When the the annals of codependency are published, let this be the inscription at the beginning of the book. Dude, that is not healthy relationship behavior. Like LMTL, the "it is only right." caught my interest as well. Your mental work here is interesting. You are sending the message that the behavior you're planning is self-sabotaging and self-destructive, but we find out that your narrative is that you are only doing this because you are so deeply virtuous and selfless and committed to doing what's right.... for your sister.

Part of the twisted fun of a codependent, in contrast to a truly pure addict, is that they find a way to call their illness virtue. I, personally, am an expert at it, and I applaud your skills. Honestly, though, I think it's far more likely, though less romantic, that you just want to get wasted to numb your feelings which is the opposite of T, and if you can find an excuse to run further from your feelings by abandoning T altogether, even better.

Wow, your post just made me laugh, in a good way, I can use a little humor right now. Seriously though I really appreciate your insight, I totally was not seeing it like that.

Originally Posted by ListenMoreTalkLess

I don't see any reason, except being a chicken (I say this in the nicest possible way, I am not mocking you), for you not to go. Except the one that Snuffle articulated so beautifully in her post. If you can construct a choice where you can truly believe it's T versus your sister, well then of course you will choose your sister. Because you are so virtuous and all that.

Seriously, though, go to your appointment and deal with this like an adult. Talk to your T about what you are planning to do and why. I don't think the issue is so much whether you go on a bender (although, as others have pointed out, it has the potential for one or both of you to become really hurt), but to explore what's underneath it.

LMTL - I don't get offended very easy so no worries about the chicken comment. Thanks for the encouragement.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by tkdgirl

Wow, your post just made me laugh, in a good way, I can use a little humor right now. Seriously though I really appreciate your insight, I totally was not seeing it like that.

Good, I'm glad you took it in the spirit it was intended. Sometimes I can't see myself until someone can get me to laugh at myself.