[~EnlightenMe~]

I was reading a post and didn't want to hijack it, but I wanted to write my opinion about therapists giving interpretations. My brain has ceased to function properly, so instead of going on my memory of what I have read, i have used the book cited below to state my opinion to save the one brain cell I have left.

I'm not a fan of interpretations, because they may be designed to help the patient understand herself, but the process of interpretation from a therapist is bound to be a function of his own feelings, thoughts, beliefs, understanding of psychology from his training, and possible existing/dissociative self-states.

Example:
Say that during one session the therapist gives the patient an interpretation of something the patient did, and the patient takes it well and leaves feeling fine. Then at the next session, the patient comes in enraged/angry or otherwise emotional and the therapist interprets this behavior as resistance. In my opinion, what this shows is that the patient's self state that is now present (the enraged part) existed as a dissociated part during the "good" session. The now present self-state is enraged because it wasn't included, and then feels as if it was dismissed, of no value, and invalidated because the therapist has named it a "defense".

This part becomes enraged, and both the therapist and the part of the patient that the therapist likes best are now being attacked as having participated in a terrible session - the session where those parts colluded to exclude the nonworthy self-state. I guess one could say that the therapist was helping the healthy part of the patient while also helping the patient take care of the bad part, but I disagree with this.

Now, what is the crime that an analyst and the patient's "healthy" self have committed? It is the crime of having compromised the seamlessness, and perhaps even the integrity of the patient's dissociative and mental structure. When this fail-safe dissociative protective system is softened by a moment of self-reflectiveness, the parts of the self that are the guardians of affective stability become outraged, and the part that holds the unprocessed affect of developmental trauma caused by attachment failure becomes fearful, depressed, or both, causing distress to all parts - for which the therapist's idea of "success" is then blamed. The already existing shame is then reinforced, and the split between the parts is hardened if not torn further apart.

The dynamic of inconsistency of the patient from session to session may be seen and interpreted by the therapist, but to the patient who has a dissociative structure, there is no mental construct for consistency, thus rendering whatever interpretation that is posited null. The implication to the therapist may be that the patient is "speaking out of both sides of her mouth." However, only one "side of the patient's mouth" can exist experientially at any given time, turning the analyst's well-meaning use of conflict language into a suddenly bewildering attack on her affective stability that threatens her highly vulnerable, attachment organized core sense of self. The patient's struggle to contain hyperarousal affect in the here and now relational experience increases her use of dissociation at that point so as to prevent a complete rupture of attachment, and her capacity to think clearly is often compromised.

The Shadow of the Tsunami, Dr. Bromberg

This really describes my position as far as my termination goes. This is my belief, this is who I am, and it is what happened to me. I know for a fact that the description of the self-states are accurate. I have struggled to separate my beliefs from my xT's beliefs, which were different. I have questioned myself, not believed in myself, but I do (on this point anyway) now. He can disagree with me, but he can't tell me who I am or what I need. I still care about him and wish him happiness and peace. I hope I see him someday at least once. But If not, then I will work to accept that.

[CantExplain]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I'm not a fan of interpretations, because they may be designed to help the patient understand herself, but the process of interpretation from a therapist is bound to be a function of his own feelings, thoughts, beliefs, understanding of psychology from his training, and possible existing/dissociative self-states.

This is why Ts are trained to be wary of countertransference.

My T says ":The expert on you is you".
By which she means that she's not going to impose a structure or a theory.

The downside is, it feels like she doesn't know anything.

when my t and i are doing dream work she never interprets anything as an absolute. it's always "might it be...?" or "what do you think about...?" or "how does this feel?" and sometimes I agree and sometimes I don't and usually when I don't agree, I have a different idea, and she has never once tried to dissuade me from my own interpretations. she says the same thing CE's does that "the expert on you is you." or her other favorite "YOU would be the one to know what you're thinking. Not me."

[~EnlightenMe~]

Thanks for your replies. My goal in posting this is because my xT had a different view of my issues that was more in line with his training. I posted my view of my issues. I think it is okay to have different views, but being further out from being attached to him, I see that I knew his orientation and beliefs, but I tried to convince him of my view because I needed him to respond to me in that manner in order for me to heal.

I was too attached to him and instead of looking for a therapist who was a better fit, I stayed to preserve the relationship that I never wanted to end. I was blind, that is what attachment disorders can do, where the main focus is on preserving the relationships at all costs. He did help me to trust and other things, but when it came to my attachment issues, whenever those arose, a rupture was not too far away.

I knew his beliefs, and I didn't trust my beliefs, I knew my beliefs intellectually, but I didn't and don't know them viscerally. The wise part of me also knows my beliefs well, but there is a part of me that doesn't believe in these beliefs and this causes a feeling of chaos within.

I posted this because I want to believe in myself, I want to viscerally trust myself to know what is best for me, even if someone else believes differently. I want to be able to be accepting of myself as I am now, knowing that this state of mind, for me, is the impetus for change.

This is not a blame my xT post, it is a post to help me believe in me. I want to get to a point where others can have a certain experience of me, and where I have a solid foundation of ME, enough where I can hear other's opinions of me and not accept them as fact. I also am trying to resolve the termination on my own, I am asserting my belief of why I responded the way I did. I valued the relationship over myself, a repeated dynamic from my past. I would not have ever been able to separate to help myself. But now I am more aware of this, and if I build myself, and if I can get to a point where I matter most to me, then I can prevent this from happening again.

I am slowly processing the termination without my xT. I was so devastated that he left this undone, I was so hurt in the way both of us treated our relationship near the end. As of this moment, I myself have reached a.place where my anger and rage towards my xT have dissipated due to the way I am actively seeking to process through this. I am owning what is mine but not anything else. I didn't need him for this.

I miss him but things happen for a reason.

[~EnlightenMe~]

I reread my post and although I understand what it means to me, I was unable to put it into my own words to describe what it means to me. I guess that my point is that in order for me to heal, that I need to be accepted for who I am by another (authority figure) in order to learn to accept myself.

I liked the example that the book gave, where if one self-state is present during one session, but another isn't, the other self-state may not agree with what is being said. One self-state at times may be the only one experiencing the session while another is dissociated. My example of this is when my xT told me that the decision to terminate was mutual, and I was infuriated because I disagreed with this. This vignette explains to me why -- the 'needy' part of me, which was one that didn't want to leave, was so angry -- because it was never consulted by xT. This 'needy' part of me is the one my therapist told me he didn't have to accept. And clearly, he lived by his words. He not only didn't accept it, it was excluded and rejected. I don't think he named it as a defense, as the book points out, because I don't think he even thought it was worth that much of a title. Like the book said, his part and my part colluded to disregard this unworthy state. So, this part of me was enraged at a part of me and him. Hence the self-hatred and the outward rage.

The next part talks about how this breaks into the defense of dissociation, which enrages the parts that work hard to use dissociation to create affective stability, and thus the part that holds the unprocessed affect of developmental trauma caused by attachment failure becomes fearful, depressed, or both, causing distress to all parts. To me, this is a breakdown of my defenses, leaving me completely vulnerable to myself and my affective unstability that might arise.

I am still working through this. I wanted to put this into my own words as best as I could, so I can integrate this understanding. This is what happened. In opposition to when termination first happened, me working through this is helping me not be enraged at my xT, which I think was a function of being enraged at myself. I rewrote this because someone said it was difficult to understand, and when I reread it, I didn't understand it, so I am so glad she said that, because I really needed to break it down and understand this completely. Interestingly, at first, when I reread it and didn't understand it myself, I got angry. I hated myself. I think I am trying to build meaning to what happened, and when I thought I did but reread and I hadn't put it into my own words, I felt vulnerable, like me working through this without xT was like a pipe dream. I doubted myself, and hated myself for a few minutes.

This meant I needed to figure out my understanding of this and rewrite it in my own terms. My psyche is leading me in the right direction.
After writing this, I feel a huge sense of relief and a sense of accomplishment. To me, this means I am healing, and I did this myself. This is my story, this is my truth. I myself at the moment.

[feralkittymom]

I really admire you, Antimatter. I read the first post twice, thought I understood it somewhat, then checked out the source on Google books and read some more. I think your way of relating this to your experience is sound. I may order the book, or one of his earlier works.

He makes this perspective on dissociated self-states sound like it's on a spectrum of DID? Kind of like the relationship between depression and depressive disorder? Is that how you see it? So is your goal to merge these self-states? I guess I'm not sure what the path looks like beyond management of the associated feelings.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

I really admire you, Antimatter. I read the first post twice, thought I understood it somewhat, then checked out the source on Google books and read some more. I think your way of relating this to your experience is sound. I may order the book, or one of his earlier works.

He makes this perspective on dissociated self-states sound like it's on a spectrum of DID? Kind of like the relationship between depression and depressive disorder? Is that how you see it? So is your goal to merge these self-states? I guess I'm not sure what the path looks like beyond management of the associated feelings.

Yeah, it makes more sense when read in context. I'm not well -versed in DID specifically, so I don't know how to answer your question. I do call my parts self-states, although I am aware of all my parts, I definitely know that each has its own characteristics. Splitting also involves two separate self states such as this. Bromberg does I think normalize self states somewhat in that he also talks about reenactments and how his self states relate to his patients. Maybe you are right about relating it to depression and depressive disorder. Yes, my understanding of it is that I have to accept the parts and integrate them. I think that the function of accepting the parts is to release and viscerally feel the shame that surrounds some of them. I suspect that shame is the barrier to integration. I am not sure of what else is involved. Thanx for your reply

[Wren_]

After writing this, I feel a huge sense of relief and a sense of accomplishment. To me, this means I am healing, and I did this myself. This is my story, this is my truth. I myself at the moment.

this is so wonderful anti ... and that you've done it yourself is really inspiring. There is so much growth in your words and in your discoveries.

Now, what is the crime that an analyst and the patient's "healthy" self have committed?

I keep coming back to this part about the crime committed; it's a hard one to avoid when at that moment in time it seems like there are only two involved in the conversation and yet really it's more than that. The word crime feels harsh and yet to the part that shows up later it's reality. Like the needy Anti you mentioned who in no way agreed to termination and yet has to now deal with it on her own Glad you are processing all of this ... it's helping me understand some things better as well.

[~EnlightenMe~]

Thanks I was typing pretty much from the book I mentioned, which used the word crime.

Interestingly,quite a long time ago, my xT and I were talking about something and he mentioned the term, "Something wicked this.way comes." In some relation to what we were talking about. He was referring to the term from the movie, if I remember correctly. But I didn't know this at the time, and googled it in relation to psychology. From that search, psychology excerpts about something wicked this way comes came up, and there was a related book by Bromberg called, Awakening the Dreamer. This author has helped me tremendously. It is kind of ironic that it would help me process information post termination. My xT and I really thought it was interesting and it seemed like a meant to be type of thing.

[Wren_]

it does rather that's great you found someone helpful out of the comment with this book

I've been following your journey for a while through various things you've posted, Anti, and I think you're doing a great job of processing what went on for you with this termination... Regarding the attachment issues and some of the things you talk about here with self states, I can relate somewhat! I'm going to check out that book, I think it could prove to be helpful to me too. Thanks for sharing

[~EnlightenMe~]

I really liked his books, although his Standing in the Spaces book was a harder read for me than the latest that I wrote about and Awakening the Dreamer. I read Standing in the Spaces last even though it was the first book of this trio, which helped me understand it a little better. He's helped me understand myself, helped me feel not so alone, and helped me have hope that I might one day at the least be able to go a few days without feeling and being insane. Now, everyday is a battle it seems. Some days aren't as bad, but my issues are always with me.

I do wish he would cover the process of how to get through all of this. It sounds like Bromberg thinks everyone has self-states, but I don't really know where they fit unless, as another poster stated, it is along a contiuum of dissociation, I guess starting at normal things like highway hypnosis to self-states to DID. ??? I'm not sure, but my new T specializes in DID (although I don't have that), so I definitely plan on asking him about this.

I think that my xT did care about me, and I suspect that he knew I needed to leave but couldn't. It was easier to feel anger than it is to feel the pain of someone chosing to leave, even if it was to help me Then I wonder if I just want to believe this, that I have to hold onto something? Thinking that he hates me and left not caring if he hurt me doesn't feel right because it doesn't fit with the whole of our relationship. I suspect that he did care, and that he was really frustrated with me, and that he didn't understand me and may have been frustrated with himself. I'm not used to actually feeling gray, but since I feel it, I can think it.

[Wren_]

anti maybe he was a lot more frustrated with himself than anything else ... did the two of you ever talk much about that?

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by tigergirl

anti maybe he was a lot more frustrated with himself than anything else ... did the two of you ever talk much about that?

No, not that I remember, but that's not to say it didn't happen. I'm okay if he was frustrated with me, I can be frustrating. He was frustrating, and I was frustrated with him and myself. There was alot of frustration going around. Either way, I know he cared. For the last months, it didn't feel that way, but as a whole, it did. I try to hold on to that, although it is difficult at times, like now, I feel 'iffy' about it.

I am working through this with my new therapist. I suspect that I was able to make progress with this due to the fact that I sat in session last time and felt massive shame, shame that I thought was anxiety in the waiting room. But it felt like shame when it was triggered, and I think that it is the shame that surrounds my 'neediness'. I say this because I hadn't felt this way before with the new T, and he had just gotten back from vacation. I think feeling this, and having my newT sit with me and help me understand what was going on, helped me work through this. I said I did this myself, because I want it to be know that I did the work. I went to session and didn't just sit there, I sat with my shame, and I went home and worked through some things about the termination. For some reason, when the candidate therapist called and told me that if I was going to work with him, that I was going to work between session and not just go and sit there, it REALLY stuck in my craw. That's not who I am, and it's not what I did. Anyway, I am really tired right now, I have a massive headache, and I feel pain and anger when I talk about this now. Working through things, I guess, doesn't mean that the feelings go away. I wonder if I am even going to make it until I get my CPAP machine, I can feel the nerve endings in my hands and feet, my brain hurts, and my internal organs hurt. I think I will feel better mentally when I can feel better physically. I am afraid, though, to fall asleep now. Just having a bad night

[quote=Antimatter;2740812]I was reading a post and didn't want to hijack it, but I wanted to write my opinion about therapists giving interpretations. . . ]

I just wanted to say, Antimatter, that I absolutely love Bromberg's work. I think he is the most sensitive and open minded therapist in the analytic army of therapists! My favorite book of his is STANDING IN THE SPACES. When I read that I felt such a sense of relief and validation. In my mind, HE GOT IT AND HE GOT IT ON A VERY DEEP AND MEANINGFUL LEVEL! I haven't read the book you mentioned but I'll definitely make a jump over to Amazon to check it out.

As for the example you posted, I recognized it as something that Bromberg would advocate. He truly believes in the different self states participating in therapy . . . and many therapists missing their presence and contribution. I consider myself very lucky that I have a therapist who understands, on a gut level, this concept. I don't think that she's ever read Bromberg (not that I'm aware of anyway, even though I've talked about him in therapy), but she gets the concept of the changes and shifts in a client is not defensive or resistant, but self states.

Thanks for posting this!

[~EnlightenMe~]

[QUOTE=Jaybird57;2746839]

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I was reading a post and didn't want to hijack it, but I wanted to write my opinion about therapists giving interpretations. . . ]

I just wanted to say, Antimatter, that I absolutely love Bromberg's work. I think he is the most sensitive and open minded therapist in the analytic army of therapists! My favorite book of his is STANDING IN THE SPACES. When I read that I felt such a sense of relief and validation. In my mind, HE GOT IT AND HE GOT IT ON A VERY DEEP AND MEANINGFUL LEVEL! I haven't read the book you mentioned but I'll definitely make a jump over to Amazon to check it out.

As for the example you posted, I recognized it as something that Bromberg would advocate. He truly believes in the different self states participating in therapy . . . and many therapists missing their presence and contribution. I consider myself very lucky that I have a therapist who understands, on a gut level, this concept. I don't think that she's ever read Bromberg (not that I'm aware of anyway, even though I've talked about him in therapy), but she gets the concept of the changes and shifts in a client is not defensive or resistant, but self states.

Thanks for posting this!

YES! Precisely! I can't believe there is someone else out there who has read and experienced his books! Thanks for responding. You made my day. I needed this.