[Sannah]

First of all I would like to thank everyone who has responded to me. Every post was helpful and I really appreciate the feedback. I am just a person who is trying to figure things out just like everyone else.

I had an epiphany last night at 5:00 AM thanks to PC and all of the people who responded to me, I was able to figure this whole thing out. Thank you so much!

I have been struggling with this issue for 15 years and it all came together this week and this AM.

“No good deed goes unpunished” .....................

I have seen Les Miserable 4 times and I cry each time. Jean Valjean had been treated terribly and it made him a worse person but then a bishop is merciful towards him after he steals the silver and tells him that he has a soul and that it has been saved. This transforms him and he vows to always be a good man. Javier follows the law with no exceptions (he was born in a prison). Throughout the entire play, Jean, while doing good deeds, keeps bumping back into Javier who is determined to bring him to justice (because he broke his parole). Jean keeps begging for mercy and then keeps escaping. There is no room for mercy with Javier. Finally, after Javier is captured by revolutionary troops and is going to be killed, Jean releases him, thus granting him mercy. They meet again while Jean is trying to save his daughter’s love of her life and Javier tells him if he tries to escape again he will shoot him right then and there. Jean risks his own life to do a good deed by escaping again in order to save the life of this other man and Javier cannot kill him. Javier then kills himself because he cannot live in a world without the strict rules of justice.

I have been struggling with this doing good deeds or turning the other cheek and getting hurt for years. I have never been able to see it clearly, however, until this last few weeks when I discovered that I have been in this position multiple times.

You see, this is the epic struggle with kindness and justice. You can’t have either extreme all the time. You need to be able to move back and forth as needed and it is always helpful to be fully aware of everything while you are doing it.

And one of the biggest things that I realized about all of this is that we each have these qualities, it is just where we are at at any moment on this continuum.

Maybe this is what people are responding to me about when they are upset with me here? Maybe they see the Javier in me at that moment? At other times people see the Jean Valjean in me and respond to me for this?

I see that the other thread is closed because we cannot discuss a member but I just needed to share what I learned because this site and members made it possible. Thanks!

All is well that ends well..........

[stopdog]

An interesting analogy. A difficulty I find is how it can be that what is kindness for or to one person, can be cruelty to another. (example - People trying to inflict comfort me is horrible to me, more kind to leave me alone - this is true even where I recognize the intent is to be kind on the other person. This can create a mess because the person attempting to be kind can feel rejected or hurt and I get confused because I kept saying "stop, I don't want that" - not in order to hurt or reject them -but because their attempt was awful to me). Justice is also a concept which is not black and white in my experience.

[karebear1]

I've found Les Mis to be a valuable teaching and learning tool in my life as well. As a matter of fact, a few weeks ago my T asked me if I'd seen the movie and then talked to me about the black and white thinking of Javier. He was so unable to accept anything outside of his own 'law abiding' thinking that when the idea of having compassion on a man passed through his thoughts, he couldn't bear it and committed suicide. One might say that Javier was unreasonably committed to his belief.

T said that I reminded her of Javier earlier in our time together. I've become more flexible- able to see better all sides of things, but that it had not always been that way. I suppose she's right. And I have to say I am so much a happier person now then I was when I was unable to see the grey.

For what it's worth Sannah- when I've read your responses to threads I've seen an open,compassionate person. Someone that is inquisitive and interested. Please keep posting. Love your insights!

[Sannah]

(I'm not going anywhere. I just needed to get everything out yesterday and considering leaving was one feeling that I had at the moment because I had to leave something else that was part of this perfect storm. I just needed to work through it.)

[Sannah]

I totally agree with that Stopdog. This is what made my struggle a struggle. But just understanding this really helps IMO.

[stopdog]

I actually find the use of Les Mis here interesting. I find the story useful as an example of explaining how the same set of facts look from different points of view. I find Valjean sympathetic as a victim of authority and Javier sympathetic as a person trying to live by their principles. Not your point, I know.

[mixedup_emotions]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I find the story useful as an example of explaining how the same set of facts look from different points of view.

I've never seen Les Mis...

But, the point you make here is one that we discussed in group T recently when someone was pointing out the behavior in another that caused a reaction in him.

He made it seem as though X = Y when, in fact, everyone in the room had a different reaction. It's more evidence that just because someone feels a certain way doesn't necessarily mean it was a direct and full and all-encompassing ownership on the person that did something to trigger that response. It was an eye opening session for some.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I find Valjean sympathetic as a victim of authority and Javier sympathetic as a person trying to live by their principles.

Great point!

I also think that this is helpful in social work because everyone does everything for a reason so I can find myself sympathetic toward anyone. Wounded people can do bad things. But then this also mixes the justice with the mercy because people need to suffer consequences for their actions but at the same time you can have mercy towards them. Talk about gray!

[stopdog]

May I ask how you see social workers and justice or mercy fitting together? I would never have associated a therapist or social worker with having anything to do with either of those concepts. Or perhaps this is another thread. Is it because people see therapists as authority figures or because therapists judge? Is it because some therapists scold or praise? Is it in the attempt by a therapist to be empathic or where they would withhold such?

[elliemay]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Great point!

I also think that this is helpful in social work because everyone does everything for a reason so I can find myself sympathetic toward anyone. Wounded people can do bad things. But then this also mixes the justice with the mercy because people need to suffer consequences for their actions but at the same time you can have mercy towards them. Talk about gray!

I can't wish suffering on anyone anymore. I wish we all could be free from it.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by stopdog

May I ask how you see social workers and justice or mercy fitting together? I would never have associated a therapist or social worker with having anything to do with either of those concepts. Or perhaps this is another thread. Is it because people see therapists as authority figures or because therapists judge? Is it because some therapists scold or praise? Is it in the attempt by a therapist to be empathic or where they would withhold such?

Sometimes we have to work with child molesters. If you are working with a family you have to work with parents who have harmed their children.

[Sannah]

Some juveniles can do harmful things but they are wounded. Behavior is shaped by consequences. (Both good and bad).

[stopdog]

Ah. I also have represented the unsavory in terms of crimes they were charged with (child molesters were not my particular area of difficulty to represent, but as it was for some in my office, we often worked it out so I took those and others took my area of challenge). So you are talking about the ability of a therapist to work with someone who may be considered unworthy?

[Sannah]

No, not unworthy at all. I can see that they are wounded people. And the social worker isn't giving the justice but they need to talk to the person about what they have done. The person needs to see how they have hurt others but they can still receive compassion at the same time.

And, I thought of another group, my own parents!

[stopdog]

The part I I disagree with is "they need to see x..."
I don't see that as anyone else's place to inflict on another. So perhaps I more want to keep the authority or figure who sees themselves as an authority away from my clients or wards to keep them free not as much from jail or whatever the penalty for the crime was (certainly that is a part of criminal defense - but not the issue internally for me) but from the forced infliction of the values of others.
Hence my own issues with being controlled or manipulated by others. Possibly part of parental things.
I am being inarticulate here and that frustrates me.

[Sannah]

I see, yeah, people can choose whether or not to seek therapy and then choose to work or not work on issues too. The therapist can also choose to not work with the person if they see that they cannot help the person?

I said that the person "needs to see" this if they want to recover. There isn't full recovery for a person who cannot look at themselves objectively.

[Sannah]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't see that as anyone else's place to inflict on another. So perhaps I more want to keep the authority or figure who sees themselves as an authority away from my clients or wards to keep them free not as much from jail or whatever the penalty for the crime was (certainly that is a part of criminal defense - but not the issue internally for me) but from the forced infliction of the values of others.

I'm talking about justice for crimes that we have agreed as a society are crimes like child abuse, spouse abuse, other violence.

[stopdog]

[QUOTE=Sannah;2847484

I said that the person "needs to see" this if they want to recover. There isn't full recovery for a person who cannot look at themselves objectively.[/QUOTE]

I know. It is one of the places where I part company with others. Plus it gets mixed in with how I feel about the legal system and its use of social workers and those who think they know what is best for someone else who have some power and the use of that power in petty ways and so forth.
The separation from society (imprisonment) is the punishment for breaking a law. The attempt to force them to "recover" or remorseful or humiliated or whatever else, goes beyond that and I think is morally wrong.
My constant challenges, not yours. Sorry for the hijack.

[Sannah]

No hijack at all! It is all related.

Originally Posted by stopdog

The attempt to force them to "recover" or remorseful or humiliated or whatever else goes beyond that.

I don't do that. I am very against forcing anything. You want to see me freak out? Try to force me to do something. It wouldn't be pretty........

[purple_fins]

Sannah

One reason I came back today, breaking my more than two months silence, is to let you know I value you being here.

I don't connect easy with most others-- but-- I felt a kind soul in you and I knew your desire to help is genuine.

I'm sorry you've been through a perfect storm-- they sure can be trying

fins

[Sannah]

Just realized that I didn't connect a few dots with this. It probably doesn't make all that much sense!

The personal things in my life which have been causing me trouble, turning the other cheek and volunteering where it was putting me in a position where I was being mistreated, well these fit into the kindness/justice thing because I was being kind and not seeking justice for myself. My epiphany was that I needed to seek justice for myself. (Put a stop to the mistreatment and even stop the volunteering and stop turning the other cheek).

Also, when I said that people here might see Javier in me, I was thinking that if they were triggered, which most likely is an abusive situation where justice is needed, that they might see me as that abuser somehow, and then, therefore, want to seek justice on me.

[Anne2.0]

Originally Posted by Sannah

Also, when I said that people here might see Javier in me, I was thinking that if they were triggered, which most likely is an abusive situation where justice is needed, that they might see me as that abuser somehow, and then, therefore, want to seek justice on me.

I am really happy for you that this issue has resulted in insight, peacefulness, and a plan for what you'll do differently in the future.

I just wanted to add that I do not see anyone on this board as an "abuser" based on what they have written, and that would include you. I just don't get that whole line of thinking, that someone on an internet board could say something that could even come close to the experience of being abused, that would constitute them "abusing" someone here. I think that I always have difficulty when someone says they feel like being abused because of some understandably upsetting or distressing event or interaction but one that does not include actual abuse. My reaction is usually-- and I say this as a survivor, that it doesn't make sense to me that anything but abuse could feel like abuse, because that experience (for me) was so uniquely horrible that nothing that has happened to me as adult (and I have not been abused as an adult) mirrors that experience on any dimension. I'm not sure exactly what my point is, here, except that the idea that things other than abuse can be experienced as "like abuse" and people who are not engaging in abuse can be considered "abusers" on this forum-- these ideas are profoundly disturbing to me. But that's my issue, not trying to make it yours. Just my association with what you said.