[CantExplain]

DISCUSSION TOPIC: T's Apologies.

I had one T (Bad Facilitator) who was very quick to apologise but never showed the slightest inclination to change. I soon decided his apologies were worthless.

My T was slower to apologise and in some circumstances was prepared to change, but I seem to have exhausted her flexibility. So I discount her apologies, too.

[stopdog]

I am okay with the therapist apologizing if it is for herself as in "I am sorry I did..."
I do not think it is an apology if the therapist says "I am sorry you ..." = this way is a denial of her part in the exchange.

[unaluna]

They are not there to change; we are.

[stopdog]

I don't think that is true that the therapist is not there to change- the therapist is there to help the client and sometimes the therapist does indeed need to change their approach in order for that to happen. Apologizing when they get something wrong and trying not to do it again would be a type of change.

[BlessedRhiannon]

I feel the same way about a T's apology as I do about an apology from anyone else...it only means something to me if the person is sincere in there apology and acknowledges what they did. I don't think I necessarily require them to change their behavior...sometimes that's not a reasonable expectation.

When my T recently apologized for pushing me too hard, she owned that behavior and said that she was sorry for pushing me so hard and that is not how she prefers to do things. It was a genuine apology. She acknowledged the behavior and how it made me feel, and said she was sorry for it. I thanked her and we moved on. T now knows that pushing me that hard is upsetting. There's no guarantee that she won't do it again...she's human and can have a bad day or misjudge and push me too hard again. But, I accept that in that instance she was sorry for upsetting me and I appreciated that.

When my mother apologizes, she will say things like "I'm sorry if I did something to upset you" or "I'm sorry if you feel upset." Those are worthless apologies. She's not claiming any responsibility for any actions. She's not acknowledging that she did something to upset me. She's not owning anything. It's more like it's my fault that I'm upset. That's not a genuine apology.

Anyway, that's just how I feel about it. I don't have different standards for an apology from T. It's the same for everyone. I will say, though, that just about the only genuine apology I've ever received has been from my T!

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I don't think that is true that the therapist is not there to change- the therapist is there to help the client and sometimes the therapist does indeed need to change their approach in order for that to happen. Apologizing when they get something wrong and trying not to do it again would be a type of change.

Okay. But generally we go to t and say, I have this problem with the world. T says, let's see how we can change YOU to get along better. Not, let's play-act a situation, t will be the world, the client will act the same, and the t will change so the client doesn't suffer the consequences. Then the client hasn't learned anything. The client must change. We were effed up.

[tinyrabbit]

Maybe Ts are not there to change, but they are there to learn. About you and what you need. My T said there will inevitably be times when he breaks my trust in some way. That there will be times when I am angry with him, and we should let that in and deal with it.

I don't think he has ever said the words "I'm sorry", now I think of it. I've ever been upset, or angry, he hasn't invalidated that, but has listened, and told me it is allowable and necessary to express my feelings, and more and more I see that he is learning about me, just as I am learning about myself.

My mother says the words "I'm sorry". They mean nothing, because she doesn't mean them.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by hankster

Okay. But generally we go to t and say, I have this problem with the world. T says, let's see how we can change YOU to get along better. Not, let's play-act a situation, t will be the world, the client will act the same, and the t will change so the client doesn't suffer the consequences. Then the client hasn't learned anything. The client must change. We were effed up.

This is why we don't often agree over therapists.
I would not go to one who play acts. (I am playing here)

In general though
I don't think the client has to suffer the consequences either.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by stopdog

This is why we don't often agree over therapists.
I would not go to one who play acts. (I am playing here)
In general though
I don't think the client has to suffer the consequences either.

Good point. Point being, this is the client's decision or preference as to how therapy should go, the play-act situation, t changes, and the client doesn't suffer consequences. That is how the client would LIKE therapy to be. This is what the t fights against.

So I think we ARE in agreement, since we don't disagree about this! Ah, love that double negative!

[stopdog]

I object to the idea of the client suffering consequences as a main point of therapy.

[sittingatwatersedge]

what is T's apology worth?

roughly 1-3 dollars a minute.

Apart from the fact that nobody is perfect, therapy is about you, CE. Not about apologies from the T.

[stopdog]

It depends on what the therapist has done. Sometimes I think it is about apologies from a therapist. I would rather pay for the therapist to apologize than to sit there and pay for the woman to be defensive or wrong or both.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by stopdog

It depends on what the therapist has done.sometimes I think it is about apologies from a therapist. I would rather pay for the therapist to apologize than to sit there and pay for the woman to be defensive or wrong or both.

hm, yes BUT if the therapist has really done anything, that is.

i know only my own story, and in my own experience it's almost always the case that it was me, not her.

[stopdog]

My experience has been different which is why I feel strongly about this.

[sittingatwatersedge]

SD - yup, same here.

[stopdog]

I very much do not believe it is the client who is always wrong. I don't think it is a good position for a client to put themselves in. I believe a therapist must take as much responsibility for ruptures as a client.

[sittingatwatersedge]

Originally Posted by stopdog

I believe a therapist must take as much responsibility for ruptures as a client.

now may be you are speaking from your experience, because it depends on what the therapy is all about.

For example, in treatment of trauma, ruptures are literally inevitable, and they, and their repair, precisely ARE a large part of the therapy.

Apologies can be just a fulcrum for scorekeeping, which threatens the work. Not saying they always are; can be.

[stopdog]

I am speaking from my beliefs and experience. I do not think that rupture and repair, without the therapist taking responsibility for their part, is possible.
I also believe that it is possible the stance that it is always the fault of client is promoted by therapists and bought into by desperate hurting clients is because of how much it benefits therapists and how hurting the clients are.
But, since nothing in therapy is across the board correct for everyone - this is just my experience and belief.

Before my T says anything he'll preface it with "Correct me if I'm wrong, and I sometimes am, but...." I thought this was someting all T's did.

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Bipolarartist

Before my T says anything he'll preface it with "Correct my if I'm wrong, and I sometimes am, but...." I thought this was someting all T's did.

Aha! Do we have the same t? I trained my t to do that, it else I will automatically tell him he's wrong. He has to do that to capture my sympathy, my attention, anything but my negative introject - the voice of granny in my head going no no no!

[feralkittymom]

I find this thread puzzling on a few levels.

I never felt manipulated, condescended to, treated as an experiment, nor objectified in my therapy. If anything, my T worked overtime to appear not to be in a power position. Even now, he never says, "I'm glad I could help you"; he always says, "I'm glad I could be helpful to you." It's a subtle but important distinction.

So for me, an apology is an apology: if it was owed, it was freely given, whether by me or my T. And if it was offered, it was accepted, whether by me or my T. It wasn't an expression of a power play, nor a game strategy.

Apologies can be just a fulcrum for scorekeeping, which threatens the work.

I think, for this thread, this is a key concept. As long as a client insists upon viewing all interactions as part of a grand power play, a drama writ large, no apology--or any expressed emotion--will be acceptable or enough. No trust will be accorded, nor extended. I can't see how such a relationship can be therapeutic.

The exchange without reservation of offering and accepting an apology with humility and vulnerability is an opportunity to participate in a profoundly transformative experience. I think this is especially true for those of us who were never respected enough to be apologized to, nor experienced having our apologies accepted. I think it's why successfully repaired ruptures can strengthen a relationship. It's a way of respecting and honoring the relationship. But they are also a vehicle of learning, and if either party doesn't apply that learning to the relationship, then the opportunity is wasted, and the relationship isn't deepened. The emotions that follow are like make-up sex--a high, and temporarily rewarding, but not relationship enhancing in the long run.

I'm willing to concede that there are incompetent Ts who may never apologize, or offer insincere apologies; but then there are other reasons to not continue a relationship. It doesn't hinge on apologies alone.

[stopdog]

I agree if the therapist offers a real apology, then it often can benefit the client to accept it and go on.

[ScrewedUpMe]

I think it's a good thing if a therapist can make a genuine apology towards the client. My therapist has apologized many times for things that have upset me or when she felt she had let me down. It meant LOADS to me. It made me feel that she was genuine and really cared about me and was willing to admit her mistakes.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

Apologies can be just a fulcrum for scorekeeping, which threatens the work.

I think, for this thread, this is a key concept. As long as a client insists upon viewing all interactions as part of a grand power play, a drama writ large, no apology--or any expressed emotion--will be acceptable or enough. No trust will be accorded, nor extended. I can't see how such a relationship can be therapeutic.

I don't believe the client is always wrong about some of the therapist's interactions being a power play. My experience with therapists, and their own admission of such, has borne this out for me. I do not believe the whole thing has to then be a waste, but to deny its existence is just as foolish.

[Dreamy01]

I don't agree with those who say therapy is all about the client and that T isn't there to change/apologise. That seems to be to be dismissing the role of the therapist in the relationship. I take the view that therapy is a relationship like any other where both play a part. It might not be a conventional one like non therapy relationships but it still involves two human beings who sometimes hurt one another or get it wrong. I like it when Ts own the hurt they have caused by apologising. That doesn't suggest I'm locked in some sort of blame state but it does suggest my feelings have value. I couldn't work with a blank slate T who never owned any hurt she'd caused me. I think that could be quite a dangerous scenario.