What are we saying ......

When we sacrifice our individuality to become completely enmeshed?

That we missed the enmeshed part of our development. And it is hard to find our way to being who we are and feeling good about that, being able to defend who we are and what we think, want, desire, accept, reject...

That sounds horrible. I am sorry to hear if it is happening with you.

Is that what therapy is like for you?

In my therapy, I am very much an individual and I can't imagine my
T attempting to enmesh me, which wouldn't happen even if he wanted to.

Ew. Ick. Gack.

Anne, you've misrepresented the question.

Stopdog, it's a question I poised raised by unconscious desires I sometimes get a glimpse off. I think Echoes seems to 'get it'.

Oh. I did not get it. Glad it is not actually happening to you and particularly with a therapist.

Perhaps you did not communicate very clearly?

Typically, blaming your readers for not getting you results in alienation of your readers.

Who would become enmeshed with their t? Hmm. If you can see it, you probably aren't susceptible to it. If you can't see it - ie you are enmeshed and you are unable to see it - one, you have kind of a bad therapist for even letting that happen. Like you both have bad boundaries. I saw this more as a mother/child or "adult" relationship problem than a therapy issue. Why am I answering this?! Am I enmeshed? That has certainly been my pattern. I sort of enmesh by myself with the other person nearby but ignoring me. Which is totally weird. So I think t is trying to break in and also get me to reach out.

Are you ok Anne?

Your question reminds me of diving into the water to practice swimming. One cannot swim without getting wet and putting one's face in. I'm a creature of land but can build airplanes and scuba dive; however, not until I have imagined/experienced and want to be a creature of air or water too.

I am fine, and I appreciate you asked, but you have really missed my point. I suppose I will say that I guess I don't get what you are trying to say or ask here-- I wanted to, but I don't feel you have really helped me to understand. Instead of helping, you deflected by stating that I "misrepresented" (which is a word that means that I am intentionally doing something dishonest, and neither is true) and by asking how I am, as if the problem is that I am not okay.

I'm sorry you've been triggered Anne.

Where did Anne say she was triggered??

I was curious about that as well. Having a disagreement is not the same as being triggered.

Mouse - could you elaborate some on your original post? I am intrigued by the question, but I also have a feeling that I would be in the group that does not get it.

Perna, yes that's an interesting angle. How can we know who we if we've not experienced submersion/emeshment.

The question was 'what are we saying..' Not can you tell me how awful my therapy is." Anne seemed to jump in with both feet.

I really was just wondering if you could elaborate, or perhaps give your view on your question. That part of my post had nothing to do with Anne. Sorry if that wasn't clear, and sorry that I'm not quite understanding the question. I think it is something that I will ponder on my own.

Enjoy the ponder.

From: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/...ationships-111

I think I had to learn about how to tangle/untangle, learn about "distance" and how to do the relationship dance with my therapist; be vulnerable but not fall apart if my need was not met, be able to "spring back" and center/balance again.

I'm baffled by the fallout from this post. Initial and subsequent readings tell me that it's an interesting question (not necessarily related to one's own therapy) about a phenomenon that has been written up a great deal in the literature on relationships (including FOO, and the therapeutic relationship). "Enmeshment" with one's therapist has actually come up on this forum a couple of times.

[I think this started with a misunderstanding and then kind of spiraled, but we're good now, right? ]

Nonetheless, even though I've heard/read about this issue, I couldn't come up with a good answer, so I did some research, so I'll start with that -these are excerpts from various articles on enmeshment:


enmeshment: overly unclear, diffuse boundaries- dependence;

In human relationships, this term means two or more people who don't have clear identities and boundaries (limits) that separate one person from the other. Thus an enmeshed person can't distinguish the difference between my needs, feelings, opinions, and priorities and yours.

"We're enmeshed when we use an individual for our identity, sense of value, worth, well-being, safety, purpose, and security. Instead of two people present, we become one identity. More simply, enmeshment is present when our sense of wholeness comes from another person.

We hear enmeshment phrases everyday such as, "I'd die without you," "You're my everything," "Without you, I'm nothing," "I need you," or "You make me whole." Many of us find our identity and self-worth by becoming the mate, parent, or friend of a successful and/or prestigious individual, or we find the need to fix and caretake individuals to give us a sense of purpose.

Boundaries

Boundaries: Tools of Respect
By Phillip S. Mitchell , M.A., MFT (CA), MAC

One of the commonalities of codependent behaviors is the lack of healthy personal boundaries. With various types of dysfunction within our families of origin, there was often a lack of respect shown in personal interactions, including various forms of abuse: physical, sexual, mental, emotional, and spiritual. Implicit in any form of abuse is the message to the victims that they are abusable, worthless, and certainly unworthy of having personal boundaries. This scenario is equally at the roots of shame.

Examples of a lack of boundaries include but are not limited to:

§ A poor sense or disregard of personal space—not sensing or knowing how physically close you should be in relation to another.

§ Sharing too much personal information with someone you don’t know well.

§ Falling in love with a new acquaintance.

§ Obsessive thinking about another person.

§ Actions on the first sexual impulse.

§ Being sexual for your partner and not yourself.

§ Disregarding you personal values in order to please others.

§ Ignoring another person's display of poor boundaries or invasion of your boundaries.

§ Accepting food, gifts, touch or sex that you don’t want.

§ Excessive giving or taking.

§ Letting others describe you or your reality.

§ Expecting others to anticipate and fulfill your needs.

§ Manipulative behaviors, abusive behaviors etc.

One of the effects of a lack of boundaries is the impaired ability to discern the difference in identity between self and another. This may express as enmeshment with another, where you may adopt thoughts and feelings of another person and any semblance of boundaries is blurred, if not altogether lost. In extreme forms, this may be referred to as symbiosis, to borrow a term from biology. It is difficult to develop a healthy relationship with enmeshment present.

Codependent people, for example, perhaps in the roles of Caretaker, Fixer, or People-Pleaser, may appear to be highly focused on another person and very sensitive to that person’s needs, yet they are in many ways unaware of the other’s truer needs or essence. This is because codependents are involved in projecting their imagined beliefs about that person onto him or her, based upon their own unresolved fear from past experiences. This is usually a fear of non-acceptance, rejection, or abandonment.

From what I just posted and my own thoughts, I think it does have to do with a lack of boundaries, but at the root of that, a lack of a strong sense of identity. I think experiencing a great deal of emptiness and a lack of a strong sense of self must be terrifying and can lead to seeking and craving someone who will fill this hole, especially if the other person does have a strong sense of self. That hole is then filled by taking on the characteristics of the other, taking them on as one's own, and being terrified of losing that person -because in losing them, you quite literally lose your'self.' So I suppose in a way, maintaining that relationship becomes a matter of life or death.

I think that being the case, sacrificing one's individuality is a small price to pay in order to continue existing.

I think there's a lot more to it, but this may be one aspect.

How do people think this can play out in the therapeutic relationship?

My question had nothing to do with boundaries or even therapists. The question was why would one have a desire to become enmeshed.

When or if that desire comes up then like everything else it is grist for the therapy mill.

WOW! You've just explained why I can't quit therapy.

Therapy aside, ultramar, THANK YOU for this post. Suddenly, my mother's desire to engulf me -- almost feels like she would consume me -- makes more sense. It's happened to me throughout my life that someone will latch on to me and try to suddenly be in this be all, end all relationship with me and I never knew why. I find it terrifying and enraging and couldn't figure out why it happened when I thought I had a strong sense of self, and am pretty assertive. The possibility that a strong sense of sense is what is causing the other person to glom onto me is something I need to think about. I know that certain clients have responded to their impression that I am quite strong, combined with the feeling that I am protecting them, and gotten quite attached in a way I think is odd.