[pbutton]

Background: I'm in the middle of a med change & having kind of a rough go of it right now. I have strong urges to isolate and withdraw. T is encouraging me to call pdoc and I'm not doing it.

Last week T kept trying to talk to me after I pointed out that the session was past over. He told me it was fine, he didn't have to be anywhere for another 45 minutes. (I'm the last client of the day.) I freaked OUT and needed to leave immediately. I became shaky, didn't hear anything he said, and immediately wanted to RUN from the room.

This week, T was talking at the end of the session. He glanced up at the clock (my 50 mins were exactly over) and I saw him make the choice to keep talking. I panicked and couldn't stop staring at the clock. He told me it was fine and he had time. He was pushing to finish the conversation, but I couldn't focus on what he was saying. He did notice that I was "done". (I was GONE. Meltdown mode. I wanted OUT of that room and out of my body as well. UGH) He tried to change the topic to a funny story, but I was too far gone and could only focus on leaving. I practically RAN through the waiting room. I was shaking and crying super hard by the time I got to my car.

Once I got home tonight I had to go for a long run to calm down. It took me a long time and a lot of exertion to mellow out. I felt like clutching my head and shrieking at the top of my lungs. I wanted to pound on the hoods of cars as they passed me.

Am I the only one who has THIS MUCH trouble going past the end of my session time? Rationally, I get that I should be thankful that he's willing to give me some of his personal time. That's an honor. Emotionally, I am SICKENED that I'm seen as one of those people who won't go away when their time is up. I don't want to be one of those people, you know where you see them coming & have to quickly generate an 'excuse' for where you're headed, or pretend to be on the phone so that they don't try to drag you in and take over your entire existence. UGHHHHHH. I am terrified of becoming like that. My mom is like that. No identity of her own so she tries to use mine.

T doesn't normally go over time, so this isn't an issue with this particular therapist. I think in his mind he thinks I need more right now. Which makes sense and is wonderful and fabulous of him. Except I have some sort of weird reaction to it.

This time I did manage to blurt out to T that I have some kind of weird problem with longer sessions and maybe we should discuss it when I was feeling better. I am terrified that he'll try to get past it by staying longer. I CANNOT do that. I'd feel like such an asshole.

I can understand the freak out if you equate him going over time to him seeing you as that kind of person. But he DOESN'T, I promise. He goes over because he sees you having a rough go of it and he cares about you and wants to help. And he does not yet realize that what he is doing is the opposite of helping.

Oh, it suddenly occurred to me that this may be your T's version of WANTING you to push boundaries, the way mine suggested. He knows how strict you are and wants you to see the world doesn't end when you bump them.

He really needs to take a step back and realize he may have gone a bit too far though.

Just a reminder though, you ARE NOT that kind of person and your T knows it. That is exactly why he feels like he is able to go over with you. You are not going to take advantage and try to linger everytime, or just hang out and refuse to leave.

[Freewilled]

I know what you mean. I do not like the idea of going over time at.all. It happened once with my current T and I was sooooo upset when I realized we went over. I was very apologetic and felt horrible on my way home. I finally told my T I did not want the time to be adjusted beyond our regular ending time. He seemed to believe it has to do with a strong need for clear boundaries and I've noticed he is more careful now about being clear and communicating with me. Like last time, our session started 5 minutes late because he was running behind and he told me that we could go 5 minutes over to make up for it. Lol.

Yeah - I need VERY clear and consistent boundaries. Maybe it's because I've been hurt in the past and it made me feel so out of control(?) idk....I feel for you. I hate having to be so worried about stuff like this cause honestly, it is Ts responsibility and not mine /:

[stopdog]

This is coming from a "control things that have to do with me freak" and I don't think it is not good to be in control of one's time or self- but I think it is like you are trying to control the therapist too here - again, I am not saying controlling the time is not a good thing to do - I believe it is. I completely control the time with the therapist I see - I get up and leave as soon as the time is up. The woman told me to go over once and it freaked me out so badly I managed for about 5 minutes and then stood up and left. I did not want her to tell me when the extra time was up in a surprise fashion. - Same act, but sounds to me like different motives, because here it also seems kind of to be about him too. Like you don't trust him to know or mean his own boundaries. (I could be completely wrong) - in your fear to not be the sort you don't like, you are still disregarding the other person in a way.

What worked for me was setting a specific time on the over time - 5 minutes or 10 or whatever so I knew and it was not a surprise or her whim to add on or cut off without me knowing.

I go over time with my Ts because it's their choice when to end it...it's never more than 5 or 10 minutes, but I am big on closure (even temporary; it decreases my anxiety), and therefore I prefer an appropriate stopping point if possible, and that's why they continue as well, as far as I can gather...to avoid an awkward ending and to make sure I am comfortable when leaving.
My ex-T had to stop at exactly 50 minutes past or HE would start to freak out. Which totally made me super anxious because he put the clock behind me and I always felt awkward checking my watch.
I am sorry you had such a hard time last week...I hope you can have a good talk with your T about it.

[retro_chic]

Sometimes my T will ask me if there is anything else I would like to talk about 5min before my time is up. I always say "no" regardless of wether that is the truth because I don't want to take up more of her time. Sometimes she will even ask me this right when my session is supposed to finish. I have no idea why; hasn't she had enough of me by then?

[~EnlightenMe~]

I think your T is trying to help you tolerate being around others, and I am so sorry that this elicits so much fear and pain. The shame that arises from having or showing any kind of needs that "those" people have, or the fear of being those that might feel like someone in in the past in abusive role can be horrifying. I think if you are interested, that trying what seems like exposure therapy might really help you, but imo, only if you are aware that that is what is happening. It is your Ts job to determine if he is able to go over time or not. Keep us posted on how you are doing.

[trdleblue]

I have issue with it as well. Once my t said something about it not being a good time for me to leave, but that made me need to get out of the office that much more.

[BonnieJean]

I can't go over time. I just get up, say goodbye and leave without t saying time is up.

[WikidPissah]

I always set my phone to buzz at 45 min, so I know it's almost done. I freaked out when XT held me over, so I understand. I don't want to be one of "those" people who won't end either. BUT... you are not staying over. You are not "stealing" his time, he is giving it. If you were the type of person to push boundaries, he most likely would keep his. One time I called XT in a crisis. We talked on the phone for a bit, I was really conscious that I was stealing time from him, and instead of hearing him I was freaking out. He persisted until I finally calmed down. When I hung up, I realized we had talked for almost 55 minutes. I freaked out, and tried to pay him for it at the next appt. He said, "wiki, you didn't steal my time, I gave it to you. You'll just have to suck it up and accept my gift". Still bugs me to this day.

Believe me, you'll never be one of those clients that finds excuses not to leave, or lingers around. You are too conscious of NOT being one to be one.

[tinyrabbit]

I don't think your problem is weird. It sounds like you're afraid going over time means you're like your mother and that your T will therefore see you the way you see your mother and have similar feelings towards you. I think you need to talk with your T about whether he feels able to set boundaries and not feel put upon, as you need to find a way of seeing that you're not being like your mother. Maybe agree that he will tell you if he wants you to go, or something.

I'm the opposite to you. I didn't get enough/any attention from my mother and as a result I am pathetically grateful if we go over by even a minute.

I keep thinking about this, and I'm really wondering if part of it isn't about safety. Some of us were badly injured (emotionally and/or physically) by others violating our boundaries. So, boundaries being respected represents safety. When he violates that time boundary, maybe it triggers a fear that other boundaries get stepped over also?

[stopdog]

I agree that I think it is about boundaries and feeling safe for me. Just that I worry about the therapist messing with me or mocking me about it, not about me doing anything wrong to the therapist who I believe is completely capable of taking care of herself.

[tinyrabbit]

That's a really good point, MKAC.

[Anne2.0]

I think MKAC's theory makes a lot of sense. My T has offered to extend my appointment maybe 3 or 4 times, and the first time I had a fair amount of difficulty with it. I have only stayed about 15 minutes each time-- or maybe 20, if you count that he had no break at the top of the hour. For me, that was more about I just can't dig into stuff that is tough for that long. I sometimes leave 5 or 10 minutes early as well.

I know you get intellectually that someone inviting you to stay is not the same thing as breaking a time boundary. You aren't grabbing onto your seat saying I refuse to leave, so you're not like your mother or anyone else who routinely pushes over people's limits. He is asking you to stay, which isn't even him breaking his own time boundary. It is like he is stepping into (as are you) an entirely different setting with a new boundary, which is 50 minutes later to be technical about it.

For me, and I think I have written about this recently, it is also about learning to accept what people offer me, being comfortable with that, letting go of my need to be so determinedly independent. I don't know how you were as a child, but I was the queen of "do it myself". I worked really hard to do everything and not ask anything of anybody. I knew that my father (who loved to help) could be manipulated by simply allowing him to help when it was strategic for me. I would only allow him to help if I needed or wanted something from him. Usually I didn't need his help on the homework or whatever it is he was interested in. In this way, declining people's help for me was a way of keeping them at a distance, or manipulating them for my own gain. I'm not too proud of my manipulation-- but I look back on it as a tool in a family situation where I usually didn't have much control. So I took the control when I could.

For me, I am also cognizant of not wanting to "use" other people's help as manipulation-- I think that I must be still inclined to do it, because I did it 30 years ago. So I err on the side of declining help because that allegedly protects me from myself. It may just be another way that I make excuses for pushing people away.

I'm guessing that you'd like to change how this kind of thing goes down, in some near or far distant future. Can you work on accepting help from others or T in smaller ways that don't have to do with perceived boundaries, and see how that goes (or maybe this isn't an issue for you?). Is this also about rigidity, wanting to be able to change your response, in which case you can work on making steps in that direction (such as desensitizing your reaction to this situation, in whatever way you have desensitized yourself with previous triggers)?

I think in general, when we become less rigid and more flexible about what we can do (if it's something we want of course, this doesn't apply if you don't want to be able to accept additional T time), it increases our general healthiness, because we can now choose what response we will engage in during that moment (accept or not) rather than following that well worn groove of how we "must" behave.

[~EnlightenMe~]

I honestly have a question. Who lingers at their therapy session or won't leave? I don't get this? Do they linger in the waiting room while T gets their next patient? Do they cling to the couch? I know it is "those people",but who are they? I dont fit this one criteria but wonder if I may meet other criteria for being one of those people? What are the group of people that arent those people named? What if you meet one criteria but not any others? Are you then those people not otherwise specified? Thanks for humoring me, sorry for the hijack.

Originally Posted by Antimatter

I honestly have a question. Who lingers at their therapy session or won't leave? I don't get this? Do they linger in the waiting room while T gets their next patient? Do they cling to the couch? I know it is "those people",but who are they? I dont fit this one criteria but wonder if I may meet other criteria for being one of those people? What are the group of people that arent those people named? What if you meet one criteria but not any others? Are you then those people not otherwise specified? Thanks for humoring me, sorry for the hijack.

I don't know if you saw my post, but my Ts go over with me, usually, 5-10 minutes to make the ending be at a good stopping point so it's comfortable for both of us, and natural. It's when we are "done." And then I walk out like I would if we had stopped right on the dot of when my session was supposed to be over.
Since the T ends the session, I see no issue with this, esp. since my anxiety is very high and I need closure (even temporary), and abrupt endings make me anxious. I don't know what group someone wants to put me in, but I feel as though both T and I have our boundaries in place. I leave when we are done, period.

[BlessedRhiannon]

I think everyone else covered the why and all that...I just had another thought I wanted to share.

Since you know you're going to freak out if you go over time, could you maybe ask your T to help you do some kind of mindfulness or grounding exercise right at the end of session? Even if it means going over just a bit? That way, you could experience going over time in a calm, controlled manner, and maybe it would help to ease the panic and build a positive experience of going over time.

[nessaea]

I also have a hard time when sessions go over time. I keep looking at the clock, and I have a hard time focusing on what my T is saying, and I just generally get anxious. I have gotten better at it (most of the time) since I have started trying to remind myself that my T is in charge of the sessions and it is not my responsibility to make sure they end on time.

The reason I think I get nervous is because of boundaries. People have walked all over me for most of my life, so I'm really really nervous about taking advantage of others, because I know what it is like to have it happen to you and don't EVER want to be the one doing it. So, if our sessions go over, I am worried that it is because I have made it happen, and thus I'm taking advantage of my T, and that she will hate me, etc. I know these thoughts are irrational, but I'm working on it.

Strangely enough, my T has NEVER been strict on time slots. She is often 10-20 minutes late starting because she has gone over time with previous clients, and has also gone over with me many times. When we recently started booking regular appointments again, she requested that I take the slot right before her lunch break so that we COULD go over time and not have to worry about it. (Ironically, that makes me even more freaked out because now if we go over we are cutting into her personal time, which seems even more intrusive!) So, my anxiety about imposing on her has absolutely nothing to do with anything she has done, and is all in my head. If anything she has been more than encouraging about having flexible boundaries...I'm just the freak!

[~EnlightenMe~]

Originally Posted by sorta_fairytale

I don't know if you saw my post, but my Ts go over with me, usually, 5-10 minutes to make the ending be at a good stopping point so it's comfortable for both of us, and natural. It's when we are "done." And then I walk out like I would if we had stopped right on the dot of when my session was supposed to be over.
Since the T ends the session, I see no issue with this, esp. since my anxiety is very high and I need closure (even temporary), and abrupt endings make me anxious. I don't know what group someone wants to put me in, but I feel as though both T and I have our boundaries in place. I leave when we are done, period.

It sounds like your T is individualizing to meet your needs, and that is good therapy! I am actually against categorizing.

[~EnlightenMe~]

((((Pbutton)))))
I hope you are doing okay.

[skysblue]

Although I probably wouldn't have such a strong reaction, I would also feel very uncomfortable staying longer. In fact, I'm not sure I could do it. Possibly if my T was clear about EXACTLY how much time I would have - say 5 or 10 minutes.

I guess because she has 'enforced' other boundaries with me before and that felt very painful, I do not trust her not to hurt me again even if she actually gave clear guidelines on how much we'd extend a session.

But, I doubt it will ever happen. Once a few months ago, I was beginning to tell T a new story and she looked at clock and told me I only had 5 minutes left. Well, I'm perfectly aware of how much time we had left because I see the clock on wall behind her and I am diligent in monitoring it and pacing myself.

So, to me, her 'reminder' of time I had available was a loud and clear message to never go over the time.

I feel for you because I do relate somewhat. I guess it's also related to being able to trust enough to receive.

Antimatter,

I don't think pbutton or any of us responding are exactly trying to categorize anyone. We're not throwing labels around -- 'oh, you know, everyone with X disorder!'

There are people who refuse to leave after their appointments, and people who linger or go back in after their appointments are over. Regardless of what label gets put to it, if a person lingers in the waiting room or wherever after her appointment hoping to say one more thing her T or doctor or whoever, or a person who simply refuses to leave after an appointment, or a person that other people will pretend to be on the phone to avoid, or a person who continues to do something, ANYTHING after another person has asked her to stop, THAT is the type of person I don't want to be.

I have a fear and horror based on growing up with THAT type of person -- someone whose needs were always more important, more pressing, more whatever than mine. Someone who completely disregarded my wishes and my boundaries and would excuse herself saying that my needs could not possibly be as much or as important as hers, or my pain could be as much as hers or I would simply collapse because it was all SHE could do to keep going and she was clearly so much stronger and better than me. I do not wish to do that to someone else.

sorry if I'm hijacking, pbutton.

Originally Posted by My kids are cool

Antimatter,

I don't think pbutton or any of us responding are exactly trying to categorize anyone. We're not throwing labels around -- 'oh, you know, everyone with X disorder!'

There are people who refuse to leave after their appointments, and people who linger or go back in after their appointments are over. Regardless of what label gets put to it, if a person lingers in the waiting room or wherever after her appointment hoping to say one more thing her T or doctor or whoever, or a person who simply refuses to leave after an appointment, or a person that other people will pretend to be on the phone to avoid, or a person who continues to do something, ANYTHING after another person has asked her to stop, THAT is the type of person I don't want to be.

I have a fear and horror based on growing up with THAT type of person -- someone whose needs were always more important, more pressing, more whatever than mine. Someone who completely disregarded my wishes and my boundaries and would excuse herself saying that my needs could not possibly be as much or as important as hers, or my pain could be as much as hers or I would simply collapse because it was all SHE could do to keep going and she was clearly so much stronger and better than me. I do not wish to do that to someone else.

sorry if I'm hijacking, pbutton.

My ex-T said he only had that kind of thing happen once, a child refused to leave and hid behind a plant in his office and would not move.

[pbutton]

Last month when I saw pdoc, another client showed up while I was waiting. She stood at the front desk and said she wanted to talk to pdoc. The front desk said they'd let him know she wanted him to call her. She continued to walk around the waiting room. When he came out to get me, he did not acknowledge her and spoke only to me, even though she was between the two of us. I imagine this has happened before with her. It was horrifying to me.

I told T about it & he said he's had that happen to him as well. That's the kind of people I am talking about. I have a mentally ill family chock full of people who do not understand nor care to observe boundaries. It's gross.

I realize this is not what is happening in my sessions.

I know there is a lot of good advice in this thread & I love seeing that I am not the only one who reacts this way. Thank you all. Unfortunately I am not in a good place today. I want to quit therapy and I'm having trouble focusing on what I need to work on in this situation. I will come back and read everything again when I'm ready to work instead of pout.

Also, I don't believe in "thread hijacking" - I'm always all for open discussion in any thread that I start. Carry on. I probably will not be participating in the discussions, but that's due to my current difficulties working through my refusal to accept any type of help from T.