[archipelago]

It has occurred to me reading posts here that the issue of boundaries really gets to people and people seem to have very strongly held views about the issue. So I thought maybe a general discussion would be helpful.

I myself don't find myself too concerned with boundaries. I don't even like the word. It means a wall of some kind in some sense. It doesn't seem to be a human type word.

I prefer "respect" or "honor" or other words that convey that you know where you stand and what is appropriate and do so out of genuine regard for the other person and for yourself.

But then again I might just be a softy Zen type that doesn't have strongly defined lines that I draw.

So I'm wondering how people conceive of boundaries, mainly in therapy of course, though what we do in therapy also has influences beyond that, either from the past or in the present. Also what are the views about how the therapist needs to set boundaries, that I think is implicit in our understanding of what we do as well.

[granite1]

it seems people who have problems with recognizing boundaries have huge reactions to those who say it is a boundary issue. and insist it is more right .but that is just my opinion and . if someone says outright T or not that it is crossing there boundaries it is .it is simple. how can others say oh it is fine just work on it .but whatever

[archipelago]

I have wondered about that too. And also the opposite. In other words, when the issue of boundaries come up, and people respond with strict views on boundaries, are they also reacting because of their own boundary issues?

[granite1]

maybe but I would go with the opinion of the person who is saying it is something that is overstepping there personal boundary. like someone said hey I don't like you doing that to me . and the person continues and cares not that they are going against the persons wishes . and then another person comes in and says its ok to keep doing that because they know it is there issue and there for there problem if they cant handle you crossing that boundary .anyway I am rambling and not making a lot of sense

[archipelago]

Well, but we as clients do not necessarily act in a usual way with our therapists. We are actually "allowed" to break social rules because it is assumed that we need help with difficult issues that keep us suffering and having symptoms that include not knowing about boundaries or social rules that govern relationships. It doesn't mean it's okay in the sense of being healthy, but it is okay in the sense that the therapist is supposed to expect and tolerate things like acting out or intensity.

[Freewilled]

For me, I have a "love hate" relationship with boundaries...I secretly crave them to be less and less but find that I have an almost compulsive need for the boundaries to be super clear (maybe even rigid). I don't know for certain where this comes from but maybe trauma...like I want my T to show care deep down, but it gets murky and uncertain and that murkiness creates a fear in me. I need things to be safe feeling - what I consider safe is consistency and clarity.

When things change suddenly, I almost have a trauma-response.

[archipelago]

That explains something to me. Thanks. Also you are right to bring the issue of safety. That has to be in place in therapy at all times, in my opinion. If boundaries are there for safety, then I can understand the emphasis on that. I guess I don't feel that boundaries create safety for me; empathy and responsiveness does. I mostly need to feel understood so I am more focussed on things other than boundaries.

[Aloneandafraid]

Thank you so much for this thread. I had a conversation with my T today when we discussed my need to reach out by text. She never responds only to say see you next week. I wrote to her and said that I would never reach out unless I was in genuine need (& I was extremely hurt/in need of support when I texted) so today she confirmed she had received my letter, said it was okay for me to write to her and also ok to text but she would not reply as it was her boundary. I didn't understand what she meant but I was too upset and embarrassed to ask. I know what boundaries are but what exactly did she mean? She also didn't reply to my texts when I was in need last week and I just feel 50 minutes a week isn't enough. Is T really worth it as it seems to be causing more stress with her boundaries. I don't know whether I should raise this again or not. Basically I can text and write but she won't reply. But then the need has usually passed by the time I see her in session. I feel really alone and not supported/no connection. Sad.

[stopdog]

I like that the therapist has to stay back. I have very strong boundaries.

[rainbow8]

Originally Posted by granite1

it seems people who have problems with recognizing boundaries have huge reactions to those who say it is a boundary issue. and insist it is more right .but that is just my opinion and . if someone says outright T or not that it is crossing there boundaries it is .it is simple. how can others say oh it is fine just work on it .but whatever

But when the T herself says "you crossed MY boundary" and now let's be curious and work on it--what do you think about that?

[RTerroni]

When I meet with my Psychologist a week from Monday I am going to tell her when we discuss certain things (including boundaries) that my points of view as well as her's are strictly our own opinions and you have to see that they are and not say that one of us is correct and the other one isn't.

I think that the biggest thing I had when I spoke with my last Therapist's supervisor is that she tried to force her opinions down my throat and say that she was 100% correct.

[archipelago]

Some people need more space, but others need closeness. The problem is that I just don't think there is an absolute rule. It is curious to me how therapists set these boundaries. Some might have been taught that during their training. There might be a slightly enlarged sense of what is "professional." Then again some therapists might decide based on having had bad experiences.

What I also don't understand is how people come to define boundaries. Is it based on their perception of what therapy should be like? Is it a question of personal style and preference?

I guess I don't view therapy as a business relationship, which is why I don't really like the word "client" and actually prefer the word "patient," which means at root someone who suffers. I'm not entering a contract when I go to session. I'm not at a meeting. I'm there to relate to someone who can understand me.

[Aloneandafraid]

I feel bad that I may have invaded her boundary. I didn't mean to do the wrong thing. I just really badly needed her last week - I would never text later at a weekend - but I still feel bad. Bloody boundaries!

[archipelago]

Sorry you are having such difficulties Alone. It must be frustrating to reach out when in need and get that kind of response. It would make me feel bad too.

Perhaps your therapist has had to make that decision because if she answered everyone, she would have absolutely no time for her own life? It is possible that she doesn't mean to be mean to you, but needs to protect herself.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by archipelago

Well, but we as clients do not necessarily act in a usual way with our therapists. We are actually "allowed" to break social rules because it is assumed that we need help with difficult issues that keep us suffering and having symptoms that include not knowing about boundaries or social rules that govern relationships. It doesn't mean it's okay in the sense of being healthy, but it is okay in the sense that the therapist is supposed to expect and tolerate things like acting out or intensity.

I think it depends entirely on which "social rules" you are talking about. After all, there ARE boundaries in therapy. In fact, there are more boundaries in therapy than there are in RL. In order for therapy to be productive, both the client and the T need to feel safe. Therefore, the client CANNOT threaten the T's safety. It is up to the T to determine what boundaries she needs in order to feel safe and do her job-- and to separate her job from her RL. For instance, it is not okay to physically attack your T, verbally threaten your T, stalk your T, etc. Just because a client might feel a compulsion to touch their T does NOT give them permission to do so. A T has the right to protect herself. Same thing with a client showing up uninvited at her work or her home. If those things threaten T’s safety, T’s RL, T’s family, etc. they are NOT allowed and T does NOT have to tolerate them. On the other hand, it is reasonable to put up with a client who lacks social graces and asks nosy questions, gets upset or angry at the littlest thing, frowns and is uncooperative, displays unusually intense emotions, etc. However, what a T may tolerate in session does NOT have to be tolerated outside of session. A T has the right to a private life, which is not interrupted by intrusions from her clients. If a T has boundaries around e-mail, texting, phone calls, drive bys, etc, those MUST be respected. Even in therapy, Ts have boundaries and, if we want to be treated by T, we have to accept those rules—just like we do with any professional. Doctors, dentists, chiropractors, etc all have rules of service, too. If we violate those, our professionals have the right to terminate our services.

[archipelago]

scorpio, what interesting is that your remarks are almost all about the therapist's safety and not the client's, when the actual therapeutic relationship is usually more focused on the safety of the client since the therapist presumably is stable and solid so doesn't require the same attention to safety as someone who is vulnerable.

Also I don't understand the "oughts" or "shoulds" that are implicit in what you are saying. I didn't think therapy was about "the rules," it is rather about empathy, caring, and healing. Because it is often emotionally charged, it is different from other professionals like a dentist. There is actually a relationship there and all human relationships run into difficulties now and again, especially if one person isn't exactly stable and has needs.

I of course agree to all you say about not disrespecting a therapist. That damages the relationship so no real work can be done. But for me, it is not about obeying rules or bowing down to the therapist's professional standing. They work for us. We are their bosses.

[Rosondo]

Originally Posted by scorpiosis37

I think it depends entirely on which "social rules" you are talking about. After all, there ARE boundaries in therapy. In fact, there are more boundaries in therapy than there are in RL. In order for therapy to be productive, both the client and the T need to feel safe. Therefore, the client CANNOT threaten the T's safety. It is up to the T to determine what boundaries she needs in order to feel safe and do her job-- and to separate her job from her RL. For instance, it is not okay to physically attack your T, verbally threaten your T, stalk your T, etc. Just because a client might feel a compulsion to touch their T does NOT give them permission to do so. A T has the right to protect herself. Same thing with a client showing up uninvited at her work or her home. If those things threaten T’s safety, T’s RL, T’s family, etc. they are NOT allowed and T does NOT have to tolerate them. On the other hand, it is reasonable to put up with a client who lacks social graces and asks nosy questions, gets upset or angry at the littlest thing, frowns and is uncooperative, displays unusually intense emotions, etc. However, what a T may tolerate in session does NOT have to be tolerated outside of session. A T has the right to a private life, which is not interrupted by intrusions from her clients. If a T has boundaries around e-mail, texting, phone calls, drive bys, etc, those MUST be respected. Even in therapy, Ts have boundaries and, if we want to be treated by T, we have to accept those rules—just like we do with any professional. Doctors, dentists, chiropractors, etc all have rules of service, too. If we violate those, our professionals have the right to terminate our services.

Yeah, I agree, I think there are more rules and boundaries in therapy than in real life. And that it's for both therapist's safety and client's. In particular, because therapy can involve touching on vulnerability and pain, these boundaries are there to protect everyone. Not an exact comparison but it's sort of like surgeons wearing gloves and face mask. You don't want to think of it as they rejecting you or not wanting to be close to you, you just see it as it being necessary for the kind of work they will be doing on you.

[Aloneandafraid]

Originally Posted by archipelago

Sorry you are having such difficulties Alone. It must be frustrating to reach out when in need and get that kind of response. It would make me feel bad too.

Perhaps your therapist has had to make that decision because if she answered everyone, she would have absolutely no time for her own life? It is possible that she doesn't mean to be mean to you, but needs to protect herself.

Thank you. It just kind of reinforces my lack of connection in RL which hurts. I don't have anyone I trust to tell about my ed / abuse. I thought she really cared but I see now that although she does care it is only within our session which sometimes isn't enough. Thank you

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by archipelago

It has occurred to me reading posts here that the issue of boundaries really gets to people and people seem to have very strongly held views about the issue. So I thought maybe a general discussion would be helpful.

I myself don't find myself too concerned with boundaries. I don't even like the word. It means a wall of some kind in some sense. It doesn't seem to be a human type word.

So I'm wondering how people conceive of boundaries, mainly in therapy of course, though what we do in therapy also has influences beyond that, either from the past or in the present. Also what are the views about how the therapist needs to set boundaries, that I think is implicit in our understanding of what we do as well.

If someone doesn't feel that they have or need boundaries, maybe it is because their boundaries have never been crossed (at least not in any significant way)? Personally, I have had my boundaries crossed by other people and it feels so horrible, violating, unsafe, intrusive, creepy, gross, and terrifying. I feel very strongly that I need boundaries in order to keep myself safe. I need to protect myself from unwanted touch, spying, force, coercion, violence-- and just basic privacy, alone time, and the ability to let my guard down and relax without fear. I'm not a T but I am a professor, and I very much feel the need to keep my professional and personal lives separate. I've had students look me up and spy on me, and it feels very scary, violating, threatening, and creepy. It significantly interferes with my ability to feel safe enough to just let my guard down and relax at the end of the day. No one should have to give up that safety in order to do their job. That's something we are all entitled to. It's similar with friends and colleagues. I like spending time with them and bonding with them, but I still need boundaries to protect myself. I can only handle receiving so many calls, text messages, etc and I do not want to hug or be touched by all of them, I do not want to tell them about all of my social plans, trips, dating life, etc. There are things I need to keep private in order to feel safe and comfortable. If people in my life cannot accept pr respect my boundaries, then I can't keep them in my life. Even "ok, I'll try" is not good enough. My safety is very important to me and I've learned, through therapy, that I get to come first in my own life. I've had my boundaries violated for so long that now, as an adult, I get to protect myself from those who try to violate them. I'm very glad that my therapist has good boundaries so that she and I can be on the same page about this. In fact, one of the first questions I asked her was: "What are your boundaries?" I wanted to know that they were to know if she and I were going to be compatible, and I wanted to make sure that I would know what her boundaries were so that I could respect them. She has done the same for me.

[archipelago]

She might actually care outside of session too. You said she reads what you write. That will influence her. It just may be that she has gotten swept under in the past and has decided that she has to resist responding to everyone's needs all the time.

[stopdog]

Originally Posted by archipelago

What I also don't understand is how people come to define boundaries. Is it based on their perception of what therapy should be like? Is it a question of personal style and preference?

I guess I don't view therapy as a business relationship, which is why I don't really like the word "client" and actually prefer the word "patient," which means at root someone who suffers. I'm not entering a contract when I go to session. I'm not at a meeting. I'm there to relate to someone who can understand me.

I don't want to talk to the therapist outside of the one period I pay for. i do, however, write things and send them, usually by mail. I would not see a therapist who had a no outside contact rule, or pay even if you cancel policy. It is my choice not to see a therapist who was bothered by either of those. I do not want a therapist calling or contacting me unless it is about an appointment change.

I do see it as a business relationship. I am not a patient of anyone one ( I don't like the word with md.s either). I have entered into a contract of sort with the woman.

[archipelago]

scorpio, I have had my "boundaries crossed" in significant ways, like molestation and rape so I do understand violation. I also had students track me down and become obsessional to a scary point when I was a professor. I do understand what you are saying. I wonder if you understand what I'm saying.

[scorpiosis37]

Originally Posted by archipelago

scorpio, what interesting is that your remarks are almost all about the therapist's safety and not the client's, when the actual therapeutic relationship is usually more focused on the safety of the client since the therapist presumably is stable and solid so doesn't require the same attention to safety as someone who is vulnerable.

Also I don't understand the "oughts" or "shoulds" that are implicit in what you are saying. I didn't think therapy was about "the rules," it is rather about empathy, caring, and healing. Because it is often emotionally charged, it is different from other professionals like a dentist. There is actually a relationship there and all human relationships run into difficulties now and again, especially if one person isn't exactly stable and has needs.

I of course agree to all you say about not disrespecting a therapist. That damages the relationship so no real work can be done. But for me, it is not about obeying rules or bowing down to the therapist's professional standing. They work for us. We are their bosses.

The rules are there as the safe, containing, therapeutic frame SO THAT the T and client can develop a close, caring, empathetic, and healing relationship. The rules are there to protect both the client AND the T. The T (should be!) stable and solid, but that isn't enough to protect her from a client who is attempting to be violent, sexual, or instrusive. The examples I gave were about the T, since that is what the recent posts on the forum have been about (T's boundaries), but of course it goes both ways. The T also cannot spy, commit violence, or sexually touch a client! Those should be obvious. A good T will, of course, hold the client's safety as a top priority. Part of keeping the client safe is keeping the T safe and able to do her job. If a client threatens her safety, then she cannot protect the client's safety either. For instance, if a client forces himself on his T, then she will have to shove him off-- possibly leaving him with bruises, in addition to feelings of anger, rejection, hurt, and embarrassment. Having boundaries in therapy keeps both the client and the T safe. It is only by maintaining those boundaries that the care, connection, trust, and healing can happen. For instance, because my T and I have good boundaries, we are able to have a very close, tender, and genuine therapeutic relationship. We hug, we say that we care about each other, she comes and sits next to me when I'm having a rough session, she tells me she thinks of me like a daughter, etc. We have all of the closeness and connectedness that you describe. She says that she can have this with me (and not some of her other clients) BECAUSE I respect her boundaries. She says that it makes her feel safe with me, so that she feels comfortable offering touch and she feels open and loving towards me. She has said that when there are boundary crossings with clients, it forces her to put her guard up and she has to work at reinforcing her boundaries-- which gets in the way of the therapeutic relationship. The fact that she respects her client's boundaries and makes them feel safe is a "given" because she is a good T.

[archipelago]

I understand what you are saying. I just don't think of it in terms of rules or boundaries. I think of it as respect and honor and genuine regard, as I said originally. What provides safety for me is not boundaries, but trust. That is fostered by empathy and reliability as well as lots of other things.

[archipelago]

I will give an example of how holding tight to boundaries produced negative effects. Once I saw a shrink who I knew cared about me, but he had a sense of professionalism that involved being neutral and objective, among other things. I experienced this as rigid, stiff, and distancing. I ended up feeling unconsciously abandoned so I would find myself acting out to get his attention. Granted I was just starting therapy and was not in good shape, but I think that if I had had an approach that was more flexible and open, I wouldn't have reacted that way. There was also more projection because he would block himself from me. My current shrink is warm and open and so there is very little projection. If people watched our sessions, they might say that there were loose boundaries, but what is actually true is that through the years we have come to deeply trust and respect each other so there more flexibility and informality. That works better for me.