[owlpride]

Session yesterday went horribly. I walked into the office and took my shoes off (as usual). T commented on my socks. I mentioned that my boyfriend gave those to me. T started to tell me a story from his own life about socks. I interrupted him - I really didn't care to hear his sock stories. T apologized and wanted to continue the conversation from last week. I interrupted him again. There was something else I wanted to talk about first.

The week before, he doubted that the type of village I said I grew up in even existed. I took offence with that - if T won't believe a simple factual statement about where I grew up, will he take my word for anything else? Anyway, I had printed out a few pictures to convince T of the existence of said place. (I felt the need to justify myself, even though I shouldn't have to...) T explained why he had been dubious and apologized.

Then T tried to continue the conversation from last week exactly where we had left off. He started off quoting a strong emotional statement I had made and said he wanted to ask me a question about that. Before he could pose the question, I interrupted him to say that I was in a different head space today. Then he said he would not talk to me about this topic today. (He sometimes won't let me have conversations if he's concerned about the impact of the conversation on my mood, and he noted that I looked happier today than in the previous few weeks.) I took offence because T had promised not to avoid conversations in fear of hurting me anymore, but he had changed his mind.

T asked what else I would like to talk about? I told him the story of how I skipped my own birthday party. Instead of engaging in a conversation on that, he simply said "It takes balls to leave your own party like that." and left it at that. Then he started telling me another story, for the second time this session. I interrupted him again and told him that I wasn't interested.

T apologized, again, and asked me what else I wanted to talk about. I told him there was nothing else on my mind.

And then we sat in silence for 20 minutes. 20 long, awkward minutes. He kept making weird faces (of the annoyed/painful/angry kind). At some point I asked him if he was uncomfortable. He said, "Yes. Is that what you wanted to hear?"

The silence felt very punitive to me. I had "disapproved" of T's choices an unusual number of times this session, and his reaction was not to talk to me anymore. I felt abandoned and betrayed by T. I had trusted T to take care of my feelings, and instead it felt like he was punishing me.

At the very end of the session, I told T how painful that silence had been. T said that the silence had been uncomfortable for him as well but that I needed to learn to say what I wanted to talk about. At that point I got super angry at T. I knew exactly what I wanted to talk about, and HE was the one who didn't let me have that conversation. The session was over at that point.

I AM SO ANGRY AT T RIGHT NOW AND I HAVE TO WAIT A WHOLE OTHER WEEK TO TELL HIM.

[growlycat]

I would be angry too. Wow, major mis-attunement! First he doesn't believe you, then he keeps pushing his own anecdotes, you clearly brought up a topic you wanted to talk about and he pretty much decides not to engage in that topic.

Does this happen a lot or is it atypical? I've had mis-attunement too but usually because I fail to communicate how important something is to me.

[JaneC]

Gosh I'm sorry Owl, that sounds incredibly frustrating and invalidating. I can completely understand how painful that must have felt. I would have felt like walking out.

I do have to wonder why a T would not "allow you" to talk about whatever you choose is important for you. Mine encourages me to all the time, and now checks in with me if he ever feels HE is going off on a tangent that may not be in the directionI want to go.

I have found it useful to email my anger to my T if we have gone thorugh a difficult session like that, so that we can definitely discuss it at the next session. Is this something you might be able to do?

Kind hugs to you.

[feralkittymom]

Not what you want to hear, I'm sure, but nevertheless...

I'm sorry you're hurting, but I'm a bit confused. It seems like he apologized several times, following up with asking you what you wanted to talk about. When you told him about the b-day party, he responded briefly. Did you follow up and say anything more about it? What I'm hearing is that you interrupted him several times, he invited you to start discussions, you didn't follow up with saying much, then decided to sit in silence, all the while expecting him to rescue you from that silence. I would wonder why he would do so when you'd shut down every other opportunity for conversation. It just sounds like you walked in looking to create a rupture (perhaps out of your anger about his doubting where you grew up?), and it would probably be helpful to think about why that might have been.

[Asiablue]

What FKM said.

It sounds to me that you went in with an attitude, you shut him down a few times, he even apologised several times. You didn't give him a lot to work with. It's your therapy, you could have just spoke more about the birthday if you'd wanted. It sounds like you were punishing him. not the other way about.

[UnderRugSwept]

I have to agree with growlycat.

I think you were ready to speak about what was important to you and your T didn't want to hear you. I don't blame you at all for interrupting his stories...it's your therapy and if they aren't helpful to you, you shouldn't have to hear them! I also understand why you might not enter into the session with a positive frame of mind after your T questioned your reality last session...I can't stand when that happens. Safe hugs to you!

[stopdog]

Sometimes they just suck. I would not have wanted to hear sock stories from a therapist either.

[ImNotHere]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

Not what you want to hear, I'm sure, but nevertheless...

I'm sorry you're hurting, but I'm a bit confused. It seems like he apologized several times, following up with asking you what you wanted to talk about. When you told him about the b-day party, he responded briefly. Did you follow up and say anything more about it? What I'm hearing is that you interrupted him several times, he invited you to start discussions, you didn't follow up with saying much, then decided to sit in silence, all the while expecting him to rescue you from that silence. I would wonder why he would do so when you'd shut down every other opportunity for conversation. It just sounds like you walked in looking to create a rupture (perhaps out of your anger about his doubting where you grew up?), and it would probably be helpful to think about why that might have been.

I agree with this. It sounds like he did really try to ask you what you wanted to talk about but then you stopped him several times. I am never offended if my T doubts the truth of something I say, I am offended if after I prove something to be true and she still doubts it. It is easy to blame T's for a lot but sometimes you have to see what you could have done differently too.

[stopdog]

There have been times when I have had to insist the therapist not blow off what I was trying to say. But I don't mind getting angry at the woman and telling her to just not talk or that she is missing the point or just dead flat wrong or that something is important to me no matter if it is to her or not - is a weekly occurrence for me.

[Perna]

T can only continue to talk where you lead. If you did not continue to talk about what it was you were interested in (the birthday party?) and would not let him move on; where is he supposed to go? He is not in your head, does not know all about the birthday party and what you feel and what you'd like to know from him, etc. unless you let him know. Did you think it "took balls" to leave? Since he did, I would have followed up on that comment, "Why do you say that? I was so angry/anxious/out of it/whatever that I did not have any trouble leaving"; if you start a conversation it is "yours" and you have to also steer it and get it to grow. It's like starting a fire; you do the kindling, the bigger sticks, blow on it to get it oxygen, etc. until it can maintain itself with only an odd log or two thrown on every half hour or so? Just stating you want to talk about something else; the other person can't help you with that because it's "yours" not theirs. You did not let T talk much in his own direction but does not sound like you went far enough in yours either. What was T supposed to say instead of being silent? You wouldn't let him say anything from his side?

[IndestructibleGirl]

I don't think your T was ever going to be able to win this one with you at your last session - I think your relationship sounds like quite hard work at the moment. I definitely understand your annoyance at his questioning the existence of the village you grew up in, but it seems to have made you pretty mad at him and had a domino effect on the rest of the conversational topics one way or another.

I'm puzzled why you are so unwilling to listen to anything he has to say? You mention interrupting him to tell him 'you're not interested' more than once. Fine if the T has form for rambling on and on about themselves blah blah, but there is a possibility that he was attempting to disclose something to try to build rapport in a difficult session, or to try to show you a new way of looking at something. And you shut him down. If you wanted to talk to the T the way (I think) Stopdog does, where you are genuinely not interested in the T's opinions, then fair enough - but if you are wanting a give and take conversation with honest contact between two human beings, then that can't happen if you shoot down the other person at every hand's turn.

* Stopdog, please tell me if I have been clumsy and misrepresented your relationship with therapy, and I will apologize.

[PeeJay]

This T was frustratingly mis-attuned.

I don't blame Owl for getting frustrated and feeling like she couldn't speak up. The T was not getting any of the subtleties of the conversation and was not knowing when to push and when to remain silent.

Not only that, the doubting of the village thing is a way bigger rupture than is acknowledged in session.

I think Ts sometimes apologize and then think it is done with. I once had a rupture with my former T that ended the therapy.

T started with an apology that took five minutes. T validated the concerns he imagined I had, and went on to say that I deserved a different response, and I was right to feel hurt, and yadda yadda and by the time he was done talking, there was nothing left for me to add or say.

I was still feeling shocked and hurt and abandoned and afraid to speak. And I could no longer speak. There was no room for my feelings. I felt like I couldn't even discuss how hurtful it was, and how I was still hurting, because he already apologized for it and so it was like, "Ok let's move on." And so I quit.

So this rupture over the village, I think the T should've had the intuition to say, "Do you want to explore this more?" Or, "How did you even manage to make it into session today knowing that I'd dismissed you like this?" Or explored the bringing in of the picture.

This is huge.

And instead, T gave an apology, defended his original position of being dubious, and they moved on. T asked Owl to be understanding of HIS doubts, rather than letting her go into why it was hurtful.

Finally, we don't go to therapy all fully actualized and knowing what's going on internally at the moment.

It would take someone who was really healthy emotionally to be able to say, in that MOMENT, "This doubting my village thing has me angry and we need to talk about that because I feel like punishing you."

This therapist made a mistake in attunement and should've more deeply explored his own doubts and the bringing of the picture to a session.

Those are my thoughts, reading between the lines and making many assumptions. Disclaimer disclaimer... but still.

I think Owl has a right to be hurt and the therapist really screwed up and missed a chance to own a major mistake. And his mistakes compounded with an apology that moved right into trying to talk about something else.

A more skilled therapist wouldn't have ended the village discussion by moving onto something else so quickly.

[owlpride]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone. It helps to get different perspectives.

I am still angry at T, but I am working under the assumption that we were both having off days that added up to nothing good. I came into the session slightly angry and disappointed by his statements from the week before. Yes, I did interrupt him twice. He occasionally tells me little anecdotes about his life (not usually relevant to therapy; he even prefaced his sock story with "I am going a little off topic here") and usually I appreciate them, but that day they were badly timed. There was so much else in the room that I wanted to address that it felt fair to interrupt him.

Unfortunately, he took offence with me interrupting his stories. He usually rescues me out of silences, but (at the end of the session) he admitted that he hadn't that day because I had interrupted him earlier. That felt like revenge. Not cool.

As for me not breaking the silence - there were three topics I wanted to talk about coming into the session, two of which he dismissed entirely (the birthday party and a conversation from the previous week) and one which did not get adequately resolved (the village thing). If he's not available to talk to me, why should I take the risk to bring up something else? I was not expecting him to be helpful anymore that day and I should have just left the session early.

Originally Posted by Perna

If you did not continue to talk about what it was you were interested in (the birthday party?) and would not let him move on; where is he supposed to go? He is not in your head, does not know all about the birthday party and what you feel and what you'd like to know from him, etc. unless you let him know. Did you think it "took balls" to leave? Since he did, I would have followed up on that comment

It may have not been entirely clear from my first post, but I did keep talking after this particular comment of his. He just kept giving me short answers and never really engaged in that conversation with me, so I eventually dropped the topic because I felt like I was talking to a wall.

[growlycat]

It is always interesting to read how different people read the same situation!! Feral Kitty mom consistently has a cool head about this stuff, making me wonder how off I am? My own stuff may be in the way.

[stopdog]

I am actually reading a book right now that references several ways therapists retaliate against and punish clients. It is a book called Negotiating the Therapeutic Alliance.

[feralkittymom]

I think it's generally unhelpful to ascribe intent, especially negative ones like retaliation and punishment, to therapeutic interactions. Such perceptions can often be transference (and occasionally countertransference), but when acted on without acknowledgement and examination, only impede the process.

[growlycat]

Although retaliation and punishment can be unconscious/countertransference. Most T's eventually catch themselves and fess up

[stopdog]

It is a book for clinicians- i am just reporting what the book says.

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by stopdog

It is a book for clinicians- i am just reporting what the book says.

Well, that's not entirely accurate. You're presenting the book's subject matter in support of therapist negative intention as though the goal is to retaliate and punish clients, or that it's an expose of how therapists engage in such behavior. I'm waiting for this title to be available on Kindle, but I am familiar with other works by Safran and Muran, and their interests are in the role of clinical training and its relationship to the avoidance/resolution of ruptures in order to increase successful therapy outcomes. In pursuit of that, they usually do examine therapy rupture case studies in order to better understand how ruptures develop and provide possible interventions.

[stopdog]

I stand by my post.
Therapists are a lot more punitive than they admit. Or some clients want to believe. It is better when the therapist is aware of it. The client is not always wrong.

[feralkittymom]

The client is not always wrong, but neither is the T.

[Leah123]

I think the irritating truth is that ruptures usually occur in partnership, both parties flubbing the interaction. Only thing is... since I pay the therapist and present myself as the one needing assistance with issues often having to do with communication and emotions... well, I'd hope the therapist would do a better than average job of navigating the difficult waters of communication in session.

It's awfully hard to judge from accounts like this, as they aren't transcripts, and even if they were, past history would be missing, which matters for context too.

All I know for sure is this sentence you wrote: " I AM SO ANGRY AT T RIGHT NOW AND I HAVE TO WAIT A WHOLE OTHER WEEK TO TELL HIM."

OMG... I KNOW that feeling. I hate that feeling. I hope you'll be compassionate with yourself and find things you enjoy and find satisfying to fill your time until therapy, and once that time arrives, I hope you and T will have the clarity and good will to repair this rupture.

The beauty of ruptures is we can mend and be stronger than before the break.

[tametc]

Originally Posted by feralkittymom

The client is not always wrong, but neither is the T.

My former T was never defensive. He actually welcomed it when I told him I was angry with him. The first time I confronted him about something, he actually gave me a huge grin and said, "That's great"! I wouldn't have been surprised if he had given me a standing ovation.

He would say, "It's always a good day to be mad at your therapist", or "It's always a good day to blame the therapist". It was his way of acknowledging and validating my feelings and reactions. He always strived for better communication and rapport with me, and his non-defensiveness was such a gift.

I miss him.

[tametc]

Originally Posted by Leah123

Only thing is... since I pay the therapist and present myself as the one needing assistance with issues often having to do with communication and emotions... well, I'd hope the therapist would do a better than average job of navigating the difficult waters of communication in session.

I think it's part of their job.

[feralkittymom]

Originally Posted by tametc

I think it's part of their job.

Yes, it is, but it doesn't necessarily preclude that interactions are a shared responsibility. In this case, the T may well have made mis-steps, but he also made overtures which were rebuffed. It takes two to both communicate and mis-communicate.