I was wondering when reading a lot of posts about transference and idealizing our T... Are you also waiting for the moment your T becomes deidealized (by you?).

I think it is part of the process we need to go through in therapy. First we see our T as perfect, healthy, competent,... and probably a bit as superhuman beings as we look for that place to feel safe, someone who can guide us, who knows things better than us, who can protect us or save us...

I think finally we work towards a relationship where we and the T are more equal partners, where the facade cracks and the T comes down to the same height as the client and there is real collaboration. No 'rescue work' anymore. I think only then, it could be time for the client to move away or to give things a try on their own and feel 'good' about it.

Now I was thinking where I find myself on this continuum.

I think I'm somewhere in between. I start to realize that my T isn't perfect, that she's 'only' a human being too. But somehow I don't really get it though. As if I'm waiting for something to happen... for those cracks to show up... for that moment where she messes up... So that I won't feel like quitting therapy, but just enough to make me think 'hey, we're quite similar'. Not a story about heroes and people who need to be saved anymore...
I have the feeling that it would be awesome to experience that feeling. And actually for the T too... not to keep up those standards anymore, to be able to take a bit more risks, not to have to walk on eggshells anymore, being afraid to hurt the client more than they realize.

And my guess is that a lot of people need that or wait for it (without really being aware) too. Until then we feel dependent and quite insecure about it... I guess.

My T recently started to show some cracks actually... Some made me a bit upset, others made me feel so 'good'. Very weird. But I like it!

Are you waiting for the deidealization too??

I guess I've never really idealized my therapist, but then, I am not one to idealize people in general. Even my parents, who probably come as closed to the "idealized" people in my life, haven't ever been perfect in my eyes. I think the one person in my life that I idealized at one point was probably one of the people who abused me, so I got over the fantasy that people can be perfect a LONG time ago.

For me, it's been important to see that all people, no matter how wonderful they may seem, are merely human and have their quirks and issues and make errors in their lives. I try to keep a very balanced perspective about people, an ability to see their humanness, both positive and negative, and realize neither side really exists without the other.

[Perna]

I remember it took several years and reflecting back on my T's and my relationship before I realized length of experience with another helps balance one's perceptions. Yes, first opinions of another are important, it is hard to work with someone you have reservations about, but as you get to working with someone one's initial feelings can be tempered by the work. Both sides grow/change in a relationship too, I did not realize how much until I had a 9 year break between multi-year periods seeing her.

But reflecting back after a few years in therapy, I realized I did not expect or need my T to be right or "good" anymore, I had my own sense of self and knowledge and "knew what I knew" which was fine. I still enjoyed working with T and sharing her knowledge but did not have a crisis when there was a conflict between us.

Originally Posted by Perna

I remember it took several years and reflecting back on my T's and my relationship before I realized length of experience with another helps balance one's perceptions. Yes, first opinions of another are important, it is hard to work with someone you have reservations about, but as you get to working with someone one's initial feelings can be tempered by the work. Both sides grow/change in a relationship too, I did not realize how much until I had a 9 year break between multi-year periods seeing her.

But reflecting back after a few years in therapy, I realized I did not expect or need my T to be right or "good" anymore, I had my own sense of self and knowledge and "knew what I knew" which was fine. I still enjoyed working with T and sharing her knowledge but did not have a crisis when there was a conflict between us.

thanks for your reply!

That's exactly what I thought!! And I'm hoping to experience this one day too...
It seems so much 'easier' not to have that perfect image and the fear of it being shattered anymore. A bit like a family member you know through and through... You can afford to make some mistakes and they won't walk away. Or like a good friend you don't always have to agree with... I'd love to have that kind of relationship.
But I'll get there... eventually, I hope. :-)

Do you have the impression your T's behavior changed too? Well, I bet it did, if you work together for years. But did you have the impression he or she took more risks somehow? Or became more open and spontaneous because there was no need to be that reserved anymore? Just wondering how you experienced that.

Originally Posted by 1914sierra

I guess I've never really idealized my therapist, but then, I am not one to idealize people in general. Even my parents, who probably come as closed to the "idealized" people in my life, haven't ever been perfect in my eyes. I think the one person in my life that I idealized at one point was probably one of the people who abused me, so I got over the fantasy that people can be perfect a LONG time ago.

For me, it's been important to see that all people, no matter how wonderful they may seem, are merely human and have their quirks and issues and make errors in their lives. I try to keep a very balanced perspective about people, an ability to see their humanness, both positive and negative, and realize neither side really exists without the other.

It sounds so wonderful if you're able to do that. It's what I try to tell myself a hundred times. And everyone knows that every single person has some more negative aspects too... But I simply don't seem to manage to add them to the picture if they're out of sight. It's a lot easier with friends, because you spend more time together of course. With a T... well, it's complicated.
I wish I was better at it. Or that she would simply take some more risks, challenge, frustrate and upset me a bit more. It could help.

[cherrykix]

I guess I haven't managed to deidealize my T yet. I've been seeing him for three years very regularly, and when I started he helped me through problems, and throughout the time I've been seeing him I've had tons more (some major ones) that he has been super supportive and helpful. I think, for me, it may have to do with the fact that we don't really talk about him very much in any of our sessions. I know bits about him, but not anything very personal.

Maybe I need to? I don't know; I have a comfortable, close relationship with him, but I'm afraid to cross a boundary so I don't know much about him. I think becoming closer would hurt my recovery. I have friends that hug, text, and fight with their Ts, but I don't want that relationship with him. Maybe I'm just weird?

[melania]

I never idealize people. I cant believe they are good.

[stopdog]

I don't idealize the therapist or others either really. The therapist might be waiting for me to start. Even thinking in general about it - a therapist would not be even within the possible options of someone I would consider thinking highly of, let alone idealize.

[always_wondering]

I still idealize my T. He has definitely opened up and disclosed more of himself recently. When he tells me the not-so-good stuff, I'm relieved to know he's not so perfect. But, when its some wonderful aspect of his life, I'm in awe again.

[Freewilled]

I don't know that I ever got to the point of idealizing my T....I kind of went in there telling him he's just a human being lol But I do think that I devalue him too much.....maybe as a defense or something /:

[growlycat]

I go back and forth through the spectrum from idealization to devaluation (internally only on this one--I respect my T's)

I understand the healthiest place is in the middle--still liking or even loving them but knowing they are flawed and not always correct.

[rainbow8]

The deidealization process started for me when I found out my "perfect" T was getting a divorce. I still have trouble believing it! She told me she's just a regular person and I know that's true. Maybe I don't idealize her so much anymore but I still like and love her very much.

Originally Posted by Freewilled

I don't know that I ever got to the point of idealizing my T....I kind of went in there telling him he's just a human being lol But I do think that I devalue him too much.....maybe as a defense or something /:

That's interesting to read... Kind of the complete opposite. I wonder where that comes from. Maybe it is a defense mechanism, yes.

[Perna]

Originally Posted by Forwardinreverse

Do you have the impression your T's behavior changed too?

The biggest thing I learned is best explained with the example of a first grader, school is out for the summer -- remember how "long" that summer was? Now I am 63 and the summer just flies by! That's because I have more summers, more time. The difference between 1 summer in 6 versus 1 summer in 63. . .

As I went along in therapy, my therapist's behavior didn't change so much as there was more experience? At first it seemed like everything she said was reading my mind/to the point but then, after a few years, there was a whole lot else going on, a lot more issues, a lot more responses so it was more "diffuse"? It reminds me of the adage about not being able to steer a car as easily when it is going slow as when it is going faster. Remember learning to ride a bike and the wild steering at first but then, before long, there was the "no hands" coasting

[nicoleflynn]

I told my t that he was off the "pedestal." I did idealize him and then....not.

Originally Posted by nicoleflynn

I told my t that he was off the "pedestal." I did idealize him and then....not.

What caused that change? Only time?

[unaluna]

Originally Posted by Forwardinreverse

thanks for your reply!

That's exactly what I thought!! And I'm hoping to experience this one day too...
It seems so much 'easier' not to have that perfect image and the fear of it being shattered anymore. A bit like a family member you know through and through... You can afford to make some mistakes and they won't walk away. Or like a good friend you don't always have to agree with... I'd love to have that kind of relationship.
But I'll get there... eventually, I hope. :-)

Do you have the impression your T's behavior changed too? Well, I bet it did, if you work together for years. But did you have the impression he or she took more risks somehow? Or became more open and spontaneous because there was no need to be that reserved anymore? Just wondering how you experienced that.

Times this happened have been quantum leaps for our relationship. They are usually accidental because he tries to keep such close freakin control over what happens. I think they are necessary just because my parents were such control freaks with me and barely interacted with me, and t's wanting that kind of control just reenacts the abusive situation for me and makes me freeze up and act weird - dissociste, probably, deer in the headlights, waiting for him to act normal again. I blame him and he blames me. I dont think the theory snd practice of psychotherapy takes this into account, except to put the onus on the client to be as open and honest as possible always.

Originally Posted by hankster

Times this happened have been quantum leaps for our relationship. They are usually accidental because he tries to keep such close freakin control over what happens. I think they are necessary just because my parents were such control freaks with me and barely interacted with me, and t's wanting that kind of control just reenacts the abusive situation for me and makes me freeze up and act weird - dissociste, probably, deer in the headlights, waiting for him to act normal again. I blame him and he blames me. I dont think the theory snd practice of psychotherapy takes this into account, except to put the onus on the client to be as open and honest as possible always.

I can see the parallel there, yes.
For me, when my T would swear or become angry (for example because of being interrupted by someone), I get this creepy feeling I used to experience with my parents too... where I had to stay calm and ease their anger or whatever...
But I actually do think it's being taking into account by T's who know about transference and who care about it... I think.

[tinyrabbit]

Originally Posted by growlycat

I go back and forth through the spectrum from idealization to devaluation (internally only on this one--I respect my T's)

I understand the healthiest place is in the middle--still liking or even loving them but knowing they are flawed and not always correct.

Me too, except the devaluation is definitely not just internal for me!

[iheartjacques]

I always had the utmost admiration and respect for T. Till last week. Now I think he's just an asshole. Will be interesting to see what he does next week. Or if I still feel that leap when I actually see his smiling face.

[Bells129]

I idealize my T too. It's hard to break the illusion I've created that she's some kind of godlike or amazing human being due to how little I know about her 'real-life' self. I find out little bits of information though other sources (her co-workers, mutual friends) but not enough information stop my imagination running wild. I think that's what a lot of the problem is, we don't know enough about our T's so we naturally imagine bits and pieces and before we know it we've imagined a whole perfect life for her/him.

Originally Posted by Bells129

I idealize my T too. It's hard to break the illusion I've created that she's some kind of godlike or amazing human being due to how little I know about her 'real-life' self. I find out little bits of information though other sources (her co-workers, mutual friends) but not enough information stop my imagination running wild. I think that's what a lot of the problem is, we don't know enough about our T's so we naturally imagine bits and pieces and before we know it we've imagined a whole perfect life for her/him.

I agree on that. It can be very helpful to find out a couple of things about our T's which we don't agree on, things we don't like that much, etc. Then it helps to stop idealizing them, seeing them as people they are not. And more importantly, holding up images they can never measure up to, simply because they are human, like all of us...

Although I think that maybe, at the beginning of our therapy, we need this in order to have faith. Like a child looking up to a hero (or simply a parent), believing that everything they do is perfect. Until we built up a sense of self that's strong enough to deal with a shattered image of the parent or the T...

But I agree, I don't think that 'perfect image' is meant to always be there. I think it can cause a lot of damage actually. But by strictly separating their T-life and their next-to-T-life... a lot of them avoid this from ever happening.

[Bells129]

Originally Posted by Forwardinreverse

I agree on that. It can be very helpful to find out a couple of things about our T's which we don't agree on, things we don't like that much, etc. Then it helps to stop idealizing them, seeing them as people they are not. And more importantly, holding up images they can never measure up to, simply because they are human, like all of us...

Although I think that maybe, at the beginning of our therapy, we need this in order to have faith. Like a child looking up to a hero (or simply a parent), believing that everything they do is perfect. Until we built up a sense of self that's strong enough to deal with a shattered image of the parent or the T...

But I agree, I don't think that 'perfect image' is meant to always be there. I think it can cause a lot of damage actually. But by strictly separating their T-life and their next-to-T-life... a lot of them avoid this from ever happening.

Completely agree. I think it's hard for our T's to find middle ground, there's the problem of telling too much but also and most commonly too little. I get what you mean about us needing the image of the 'perfect' T to help us with our therapy, but I definitely agree that as things progress we need to learn more about the real T or we're naturally going to project things onto them and that in itself can be detrimental to the relationship us and our T's try so hard to build.

[learning1]

Originally Posted by Forwardinreverse

I agree on that. It can be very helpful to find out a couple of things about our T's which we don't agree on, things we don't like that much, etc. Then it helps to stop idealizing them, seeing them as people they are not. And more importantly, holding up images they can never measure up to, simply because they are human, like all of us...

Although I think that maybe, at the beginning of our therapy, we need this in order to have faith. Like a child looking up to a hero (or simply a parent), believing that everything they do is perfect. Until we built up a sense of self that's strong enough to deal with a shattered image of the parent or the T...

But I agree, I don't think that 'perfect image' is meant to always be there. I think it can cause a lot of damage actually. But by strictly separating their T-life and their next-to-T-life... a lot of them avoid this from ever happening.

I wonder if it's a good or ethical thing for them to allow themselves to be put on a pedestal, even at first. I guess that therapy tends to encourage that, since the therapist doesn't talk about their own problems. If the therapy works out, maybe the ends justify the means, but sometimes it ends badly, and the client is worse off than when they started. For example, if the client wants too much time from the therapist and the therapist terminates. If the therapist hadn't artificially made themselves seem so heroic (the way therapy tends to do), then the client wouldn't have wanted or believed it was possible to get more than what was realistic, and wouldn't have gotten hurt. I'm afraid the profession of therapy encourages some therapists who have big egos to put themselves out almost as "saviors" without much self-criticism for how it can come across and hurt some clients.

Originally Posted by learning1

I wonder if it's a good or ethical thing for them to allow themselves to be put on a pedestal, even at first. I guess that therapy tends to encourage that, since the therapist doesn't talk about their own problems. If the therapy works out, maybe the ends justify the means, but sometimes it ends badly, and the client is worse off than when they started. For example, if the client wants too much time from the therapist and the therapist terminates. If the therapist hadn't artificially made themselves seem so heroic (the way therapy tends to do), then the client wouldn't have wanted or believed it was possible to get more than what was realistic, and wouldn't have gotten hurt. I'm afraid the profession of therapy encourages some therapists who have big egos to put themselves out almost as "saviors" without much self-criticism for how it can come across and hurt some clients.

That's a very good question.
I thought it was a good thing for the relationship at first. But I'm not sure whether T's actually really have that intention. I honestly doubt it. I don't think they want anyone to put them on a pedestal (if they are good T's). But it happens of course.
But then again, some others might really encourage it, as you say, because of their egos. I agree on that too.