Value

Or is there inherent evil and who decides what is evil and what is not?

This is also a good point. Where does evil come from? How do we know one thing is evil and another is not?

What a thought provoking conversation! A very emotional one. I get what some are saying about the inherent goodness in all humans, but like some others, I feel that there are human's who are inherently evil or damaged in a way that makes them live outside the acceptable norms of society. I believe that we're all born with value and goodness inside us, but as we grow we make choices and those choices can impact us and those around us. We all have free choice and when that's factored into the equation, I see there are people who make choices that severely and negatively impact on those around them.

It saddens me when individuals who have been physically and/or sexually abused are told that their abuser has value and is inherently good somewhere deep inside of them, hidden beneath years of their own abuse. I think that the abused individual needs to make this decision for herself and not hear it from others. If that doesn't happen I feel that the abused individual might never truly heal. She needs to determines for themselves who her abuser was and how his behavior impacted her life. That's why I think it's so dangerous for therapists to make the judgment that the client's abuser was evil or scum of the earth. I think it's fine for the therapist needs to show in a very genuine way how the client's treatment impacts them emotionally. This allows the client to see how others view or react to what happened to her. It's a delicate balancing act with the client in the middle trying to decide for herself.

Personally, I know that on some level my abuser loved his wife, daughter and sons. He loved his job and his position in society. But this love and caring attitude was all for selfish reasons and an act. It was how he groomed his victims and lured adults into a false sense of "everything's good. Nothing to see here."

I don't know if he was ever abused, but his sadistic nature, I'd say he probably was. But as an adult, he made a choice; a choice to hurt and damage those he supposedly loved or cared about. He did this to satisfy his own wants and needs. He didn't think about the impact of his actions on those around him. It is not possible for me to look back at him and recognize his worth. I've been spending my time recognizing that I have worth and forgiving myself for falling for his web of deceit. It took me a while to realize I deserved that forgiveness. And in the end, I did not make the same choice he did. I recognized the worth in others and choose not to hurt others to get my needs met. Big difference between him and me!

Just my take on things.

idk. i don't see value = good. simply that by being human, you have value.

Another interesting point. Is value separate from being "good" or is value connected to how good you are?

And I totally understand where you are coming from.

I know for me, it has helped to acknowledge that the things done to me were about my abuser and his own life and history, rather than me. They actually had absolutely nothing to do with me and everything to do with how he was raised, and what his experiences were. That has helped me let go. But I can totally see how some people would see that as invalidating or excusing the things done to them. It's definitely not my intent to do so in asking these questions.

I think the need to have someone be inherently evil because they caused someone harm to be a bit over the top. Certainly one can be harmed and believe the person causing the harm to be bad or evil but that need not translate into totality. Nor does it invalidate harm experienced by any individual. I think looking for inherent evil just makes it more understandable or cope-able by the person who experienced it. It need not be universal nor inherent to hurt and cause damage.

In a relative sense, it is perhaps coloured by my personal experience with CSA(and I use the A here very loosely). The guy, in my case, was not, in my opinion, evil. The experience was not horrifying to me at the time. Susan Clancy's book helped me a lot.
But to condemn him as evil simply because he touched me as a child, in my case, would be inaccurate. My experience does not invalidate those for whom CSA was horrifying and shattering.

absolutely, in fact I believe that is the case, its such a visious circle, They also did contribute in a positive way to the world, and helped lots of people. So yes they were valuable to people. I do believe even the worst people have contributed in a positve way and do have self worth.

Again, people seem to seek honor in order to convince themselves of their own goodness....
aristotle

Raping a child and then dismembering them = evil. Behavior such as that and similar heinous deeds. An individual who does those things does not deserve to live.

Thats just the ego talking

Do you believe death to be the worst thing that can happen to a human?

I don't. Not at all. I think it's much better to punish someone by locking them in a cage for the rest of their lives without parole. I would rather die.

This thread has become extremely interesting. Thanks for the good, thought-provoking discussions, y'all.

What do you mean by this? Explain.

Whether they deserve to live or not (I happen to agree that this world would be better off without them), do they still have a bit of worth? Is there still anything at all valuable about them?

It's coming from a place that is not our 'god' self.
It's coming from a place of judgement. It's coming from fear.

So, where should such an opinion come from? How should we look at it instead?

I agree with stopdog about inherent value but I do think there is always potential. I think potential is measured in action so hurting stopdog's animals or a child, etc. lowers one potential in my eyes. But I do believe the bad guy/gal can turn his life around/reform, just that the possibilities of that happening lessen as time goes on. I believe there are some people here who will not get "well"/have what I would personally (in case you missed the "I" :-) call a worth while life.

Thats for you to discover :-)

I believe people earn the right to be worthless.

So, some questions for all, based on things that have come up.

If you believe all humans have worth no matter what:
1. How do you punish a human? How much is too much?
2. Why do all humans have worth? Where does it come from?
3. Is that worth tied to anything they do?
4. Do some humans have more worth than others? How do you determine if they do?

For those who believe no humans have worth:
1. Why can't we do whatever we want to each other then?
2. Do animals have worth? Why can't we just kill them or harm them?
3. Why does it seem wrong to hurt each other?

For those who believe worth has to be earned:
1. Who determines when we've earned worth?
2. How much good does it take?
3. Do we have to re-earn it with each person or interaction?
4. Once we've earned it, can we lose it? How?

For those that believe that we are born with worth but can lose it:
1. How? How bad is bad enough to lose it?
2. Can it be gotten back?
3. Does it vary depending on the person?

I don't believe anyone loses their worth. they throw it away. It is a choice. destroyed in their destruction.

Fair enough. How? Do they have to consciously choose to throw it away? And can they ever get it back?

I believe that all people have value because all people are children of God. And I believe that all living things are creatures of God. And I think it does me good to be humble enough to remind myself as such as often as possible.

Now, that doesn't mean that a person loses all of his value if he kills people or creatures in his own self interest, as humans do to eat food and to fight wars.

It just means that I believe that all beings have worth that is external to their economic worth and that that very worth is not something that any other human gets to put a price on or measure.

In my personal life, people are ranked. Given enough effort, I could even assign a numerical value to what people are worth to me. (Not a monetary value, but a numerical one, where I rank people in order, though I'd struggle to order my own children. Call it a tie?)

But I also see such an ordered numbering as a futile exercise because what does my opinion count for? Not much. If someone has no value to me, it doesn't mean that person has no value to anyone or no value to the universe or God.

And also, a person's value cannot be summed by how many other people value that person. Meaning, I don't think you can say that the parent of five children has more value than the parent of three children than the non-parent. I don't think popularity or close friends is a measure of someone's worth.

There are certainly people on this planet whom I think we'd all be better off if they were gone. But even then, my lack of ability to see the entire situation makes my opinion worthless. Even violent dictators sometimes serve some useful purpose, such as quashing unrest and preventing all-out civil war.

Whether or not people have value isn't something I think about often because I assume that they do, whether or not that value is immediately visible to me.

More succinctly, in my belief system, all people are children of God. But they're not my children. I don't have to love everyone. I don't have to see everyone's value. I can even wish others dead or ill, to no consequence other than my own time wasted on ill feelings.

1. just because someone has value doesn't mean they don't answer for their crimes. however, because they have value, as do the victims of their crime, and as do the individuals that make up the larger community, punishment should be thoughtful. in the united states we are far more focused on retribution instead of rehabilitation. we want our pound of flesh. other countries are more interested in rehabilitation. i think how we determine punishment should reflect how we value humanity as a whole and individually. and that's something that should always be open for discussion and evaluation.

2. i'm religious. so for me, it's because of God.

3. no. it's inherent. worth =/= good or sacred. it simply means that as a human being one has value for simply being human.

4. no.