Value

Do you believe that humans have an inherent worth or value? Do humans mean anything outside of what they say and do?

I believe we do, even the evil ones. I believe every human has a worth and a value, and that some just hide that under evil acts. It breaks my heart to see some people here who don't see that in themselves. I see a wonderful human being, unique and individual and interesting and worthwhile, in all of you, even the difficult ones. And it's absolutely painful to read that some of you don't see that in yourselves because of things done to you, things you have no control over.

I guess I just want to say, you ARE worth something. You DO have value. And you DO deserve a better life, no matter what.

yes. i think human beings have inherent value.

I don't see anything as having inherent value. I am a moral nihilist and quite often a relativist. Value, in my mind, is always in relation to something. Otherwise it would be called something else. Are humans more valuable in certain situations? In all situations? Or relative to each other? My answer is it depends.
In a vacuum - relative to each other I could say yes - everyone has value. But in my life there are people I value more than others. There are some I value less than my dog. I would try to greatly harm anyone who touched my pets or my loved ones who are human. At that moment the harmer would have less value to me than my dog or my lover.

I'd like to believe humans have inherent value, but some days... some people... I'm not so sure. Maybe I'm just not very philosophical tonight, I'm aching... dreading the work week, and still do mental gymnastics around new T.

I did want to say, thanks HazelGirl! And, just in case nobody has told you recently, you're pretty awesome! Have a good week!

i definitely believe that all people have worth and value. we are all flawed but that doesn't mean we don't have great worth. it can be hard to believe if either you've been beaten down a lot in life or are just beating yourself up for real (or perceived) failures. sometimes the hardest person to forgive is ourselves.

I would agree, in a sense, with what you are saying. Yes, if I had to choose, I could choose one above the other. But in a vacuum, not comparing abilities or past deeds, I do believe each person has a worth that transcends any ability to measure it. It's not based on wealth, abilities, strengths, personalities, good (or bad) deeds, or anything else. It's inborn and unchangeable.

Nope. I don't believe that at all. I believe there are some people who are so horrible they deserve to be dead. I don't want our prisons to even pay for them to be alive in there. Some crimes are unforgiveable.

Now my extreme stance likely doesn't reflect on anyone HERE. (Unless you're like a serial killer or something.) So I get what you're saying, Hazel. I just have to draw that line at those who irrevocably hurt others.

I know there are people here with a lot of guilt and shame, but I have not heard a single story here of someone who isn't just hurting and wanting to be better. No one who has shared their story here is deserving of anything but understanding and forgiveness.

I can totally understand why you would say that you don't believe that some people have inherent worth. Do you think that when they were children who were innocent, did they have worth? Did they somehow do something badly enough to lose that worth? If so, where is that line drawn? Or is it possible that, like I have said above, they hide their worth by evil deeds. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished. I'm not even saying they should remain alive. But is it possible that even though it would benefit the world to have them gone, they might still retain just a spark of that original innocent worth?

Does this include soldiers in battle who kill bystanders without remorse because they are simply collateral damage? Bombers who annihilate villages? Does it include people who were mentally ill when committing crimes? Does it take into account cultural differences? And who chooses which crimes or acts constitute the unforgivable? Each individual by their own value system?

I can go two ways with this:

1. Sometimes kids are NOT actually innocent. Budding psychopaths might start out torturing animals and then move up to murdering people.

2. There's the relativity factor like SD mentioned. You might meet me my mom and think she's swell. Personally, my life would be easier if she was dead. So there's that.

Then there's everyone else who's just damaged and can probably be helped.

Do you really want to know what I think, or is this just an exercise in proving I'm not as good or forgiving as the rest of you?

It is real in the philosophical discussion here. I am not interested in proving anything one way or the other about you. I meant in the bigger picture.

I think that what we're trying to point out is simply that with very few exceptions (you could logically argue psychopaths might not have inherent value...although I disagree), most people have some good and some bad in them. It's not up to anyone to decide whether someone has worth. They just do. That soldier has a family and loves his children. That murderer has parents and siblings who love him and who are loved by him. And that millionaire who embezzled also gave thousands to charities. And it goes on.

Well on a positive note, I want to thank hazelgirl, for saying that she believes that people dont believe they have self worth when they do, so thank you, because I am one of those people. Second, I of course dont believe the people that hurt me in the past (csa) have any kind of values or are any good.

I do believe people have inherent value even if it's been twisted by life experiences. I do think most people at one point in their life have an element of good in them. Even a psychopath. Even before this, as a child this evil person was probably as innocent as possible given life circumstances. Like StopDog said, worth is often relative. People who are evil by most standards can have another side to them where they do feel real love for famy members or others and would never harm them. Their family might be unable to believe such evil can reside in this same person. In this part of their world, they may have a very clear value. Even a serial killer who meets with a psychiatrist to gain insight into their own behavior has some worth as a human if only because we might learn from him. I think people are so complex and there are many ways we can derive value.

When normal people doubt their own worth, as I have, I think its often due to where they believe worth is derived from. Do some women base their worth on societies standards of beauty which are so hard to live up to (especially as we age). Does a teen base their worth on how many "likes" a selfie on social media receives, and how fast they receive it? Absolutely. It'y the same for men...so many feel worthless because they haven't achieved the things that are expected of them. I think a lot of us hyper focus on perceived flaws and can only see ourselves in a one dimensional light. We can over identify with our psychiatric "issues" and define ourselves and our worth by them. I think therapy can be a great help with this. A t can help us identify other positive aspect to our selves thad we never knew existed.

I think most people have worth because I can see redeeming qualities in most people, value they provide society due to certain talents they have. As for people who do terrible things, I guess there's still part of me that feels like it's not my place to judge that from my religious days.

The fact that I see tangible worth in most people is a large part of why I see no worth in myself. Everyone else has something they're good at and is able to contribute to society. I'm not good at anything that truly matters in life. For a long time I thought I did because I am good at school, and while you're in school, everyone tells you how smart you are and how you're going to go far in life if you're making good grades. Once I graduated, I realized all of that knowledge and book smarts counts for nothing in reality since I'm not good at applying it to real life scenarios, and I truly have nothing that matters to offer the world.

John O'Connor: You can't go around killing people!
Terminator: why not?
J O'C: because you just can't!

Something like that from the Terminator movie.

Rather a gushing statement. Not sure I'm into gushing.
We're human beings, I'd stop at that.

I agree. Some humans are inherently evil and need to die.

We are taught that lives have value. But we value them all differently. Say there were a couple of kids drowning, I'd save the life of my child before another's.
My brother doesn't think I'm fit to be a human being. But that doesn't mean I'm not valued by my husband, father, children, workmates, friends and my dog.
I value the life of my dog more than someone else's kid though.

If our lives had no value, why don't we have any compunction about killing others, randomly and at will?

I agree that there are inherently bad people in the world that need or deserve no further explanation. It easy to say they are worthless as a knee jerk reaction because of the awful things they might have done. But as a human it would be hard for me to really believe that they have no value.

i think everyone has value, even those who have done heinous things. it maybe that, when weighing the value of that person against the collective and individual values of those that are or could be victims, that person's worth is forfeit in a sense, but it does not mean they don't have it. if they were valueless, then it would be easy to form a mob and have vigilante 'justice' but we don't. instead we put them through a legal system because we recognize that they do have value and that it needs to be handled in a certain way.

that doesn't mean the system doesn't fail, but if the choice is that or dragging someone out of their bed at night, i choose an imperfect system that recognizes that life and liberty should not be removed willy-nilly.

Thank you for this. I have my opinions about this but I won't elaborate.
I will say I completely agree with you though.

Many days I feel if I have to stand being around one more human I have HAD IT! lol But I do have those moments of appreciation of each unique individual and their purpose in this world.

I completely understand why you might say that.

Would it change if you knew they became the people they were because they, as innocent children, were abused as well? Would it change if they also contributed to the world in a positive way?

And the big question: at what point is "bad" bad enough to lose your worth?