Should I pay this money back?

Well, many people have suggested you change therapists, and I think you were very close to it a couple months back, so....

I mean, you could ask her what work she thinks would be helpful, so you have something concrete to do,

Or you could take your impression and find a more boundaried therapist, though as far as this one goes, I can't agree with the feeling that her providing so many months of free therapy and the other things she's done for you is making you settle for less, "be grateful for whatever you can get" in any way, quite the opposite, really.

That feeling you describe of not seeming as good as you did at first- you know- that's an issue you've been attributing as one of your own patterns here for a long time, not just something happening with her.

i went ahead and read your other thread. i think part of the problem here is the way you are interpreting what she does. i see a fair amount of mindreading and it's hard to offer good feedback when responding to an interpretation of someone's actions rather than just what happened. i think if you can try to stick to describing just what the interaction is between you and your T then it will be easier to figure it all out. hope that makes sense.

My bold -

I have said I think she could be using it to show she cares.

And the second bit in bold, this is probably really my point. I am grateful that she cares, but it isn't enough. One hour a week is not enough, we don't interact enough, and one person doing it to be charitable is certainly not enough.

I am trying to get to grips with the new boundaries that spelled the end of the cosy little relationship with lots of contact. I honestly am trying, but at times like this I think I'm not able to adapt as quickly as she or I would like.

No, I didn't mean the time of abundant therapy was all about being grateful for what I can get. I meant the here and now, in the more boundaried relationship - that feels like her rose tinted spectacles fell off and she saw I was pretty useless, and now she feels it's adequate for me to learn how to take whatever I can get and shut up and be happy with it. I must stress that is how it feels, not what I believe to be true.

And yep, I do know it's my own pattern, but I'm at a loss as to how to snap out of it, and when people's behaviour could possibly be for this reason it's difficult to dismiss it.

She did give me a piece of work to do - to try to hold on of one caring thing she or the friend I mentioned have done and allow myself to believe in that care. I can do that. Easily. I believe that they care, I am grateful, but it's not enough. Or it doesn't feel enough. I feel awful saying that, but it's the reality of my stupid feelings.

I thought I have described the interactions pretty straightforwardly? And then afterwards let rip with wondering and worrying about possible interpretations.

First, your feelings aren't stupid. They are what they are. Sometimes it's easy to change feelings by changing your perspective, but sometimes, it's not. Don't beat yourself up over it

Second... I wonder about this. I just read something online (and I can't find it now, so frustrating!) that talked about how sometimes when therapists say "the relationship is what heals" - you have to be careful that they don't think that's ALL that heals. Because (apparently) there are some Ts out there who think (?) that you just go and have a good, supportive relationship, and that's magically enough to fix people right up. It's not... the relationship is a vehicle that is supposed to help you feel supported enough to do the other mysterious stuff that heals (that I'm still not 100% clear on). The T needs to have other tools and techniques beyond just "the relationship".

Can you talk to her about all this? Can you say, "look, we really need to talk about what's going on, because it's not working for me, and I'm feeling a bit frustrated/disappointed/hurt." ? And if she says, "You know I care, I spent $3000 on you!" you can say, "Yes, I know you care. I appreciate that very much. But I'd still like to talk about the things that are difficult for me about this relationship."

I would expect a conversation like this is the very stuff that therapy is made out of. Heck, even if she weren't a therapist, I'd expect a good friend to be able to sit down and tolerate an honest converation like this... If she can't have this conversation, then maybe that's the big clue that tells you it's time to move on?

I don't know... I guess it looks like your choices are:
- talk to her about it - which may mean you end up leaving, or you may figure out something important about yourself, or she may figure out something about hereself. Either things get resolved, or you take off.

- or, leave now. But, probably talking to her first is better. It gives you a chance to try out / practice working things out. It gives you the chance to maybe learn something, or experience something new. It gives you the chance to keep the relationship with this person who seems to care. And, if that doesn't work - leaving later is always an option.

Sorry. I feel like I'm just starting to "blah blah blah" a bit!

Honestly, I haven't read all through this thread, but I don't think she is throwing it in your face. It appears to me that she brings it up when you doubt her sincerity and her care for you. She is trying to offer you a list of reasons why you should believe in her (it seems to me). That may not be an effective tool for you, but it does seem like a logical thing to do.

I don't think she is trying to throw it in your face, but based on my experience with my own T who did once describe herself as having "bent over backwards" for me, and then I did something to her that felt like a slap in the face--- they care about us a lot, and do things they should not do and would not in any other circumstance-and then we do something that hurts them (bc theyre human) and they feel unappreciated.

You cant educate a persons feelings away.

My T began to feel that she was doing too much for me and abruptly yanked it all back, just gone immediately. Now if I need extra attention I pay for it.

I would suggest you discuss with your T the fact that you feel grateful to her for all the care she has provided you, but most especially for all the free care when you were unable to pay her. That you understand she has a generous heart, but that you know she alsohas financial needs of her own, and that you are now in a position to begin to pay her back for her generosity, and that you would like to pay her X extra amount each week towards the back balance, if that's okay with her.

Maybe she will accept it and maybe she won't, but the offer would sound to her like it is coming from a genuinely grateful place rather than a "youre a ***** to remind of of this" place, and you DO owe her the money whether she accepts it or not. You should not feel resentment towards this fact bc it is the truth. If you are financially able you should ask her if its alright to try to pay her back, and if not to pay her back, then to pay it forward, so that she will be able to afford to help out another client down the road who is in need of a similar service. she cant possibly take that as aggressive in any way.

I should also add- these types of hurt feelings on the part of your T are EXACTLY why she should never ever have given you free therapy in the first place- its a huge major boundary crossing and will continue to have reverberrations throughout your therapy. (reduced fee would have been better, and/or an agreement to pay when you were able). I do think it came from a good place, but I think we can safely assume she is not in the business of working for free and feels you have a special relationship which is why the door slamming was so significant. Try your best to present it in a way that allows you to pay her back, or pay it forward to a fund for her to use for another needy client. I think the effort will go a long way. good luck and do let me know what you decide to do.

I think what concerns me about all of this is that it seems to be yet another issue of boundaries. There seems to me to be a lack of perception psychologically about how boundaries function, about their purpose and origins. She also seems to have some personal work to do in supervision about the meaning of these issues for herself psychologically. One interpretation of a T crossing boundaries is as a response to feelings of incompetence. A kind of overcompensation to hide the recognition that a T feels impotent to address an issue. And then it gets played out in your therapy as a need to prove to you (and herself) how she is helping you (but of course is futile because it's misplaced.) . Or demanding a show of improvement from you. It reflects an emotionally inappropriate investment in your progress that goes beyond caring because it ultimately isn't about you but about her own feelings of competence or goodness or some other value. And it impedes her ability to help you.

The fact that it dove-tails or even is triggered by your issues is irrelevant. She needs to get on top of this issue of competence before she can be of consistent help to you. She can help you in certain ways, but not in the ways that connect to her issues. I think the question of paying her back is misleading and won't really solve the basic problem. It won't be good for you, and I suspect she would view it as passive aggressive because to do otherwise would entail recognizing her own ambivalence.

I guess the question for you is how much further can you progress with her outside of this issue? I wish your attention didn't have to be split between your healing and your T's actions.

Due to my past, I'm not very good with having the "I've done this for you, so why can't you do this for me" stuff brought up ... Sometimes it triggers me so badly I just want to explode!

However, my therapist and I are currently working on trust, perception, then vs. now, discernment, etc.

I think it's good that we are, because a lot of times when people do it today, it isn't necessarily nefarious or manipulative.

I certainly don't want to continue causing myself further harm or damage over something that isn't correctly perceived and/or received on my part.

Not an easy task, though, as some of this kinda stuff is still very difficult for me to figure out.



ps.1 - I wouldn't pay the money back unless she specifically stated she expected it.
ps.2 - I would discuss with her how it's making me feel when she keeps bringing it up though!
ps.3 - I wish you good healing.

maybe i wasn't explaining what i meant very well. when i read your posts i sense that you are very conflicted and it seems your posts go in one direction and then suddenly you add more detail and that changes the scenario to a whole new direction. i'm not meaning to be critical but just trying to understand the bigger picture of what happened in any given incident with your T so as to give you feedback that is helpful rather than just addressing one half of the picture and giving feedback that may not actually be relevant at all. i guess we process things quite differently so it doesn't always make sense to me until you've filled in more detail and context.

with your post in response to leah i'd say it sounds like the overall conflict is more if you can adapt to the sudden change in boundaries. your T seems to have gone from stricter boundaries to quite lackadaisical boundaries which seemed to tap into desires for your T to be more like a friend and then back to stricter boundaries. depending on your core issues i can very much see how this is not something you'd be able to easily adapt to if at all. further, it is triggering you and bringing up issues from your past that sound like they are probably quite significant. i just feel badly for you that your T's inconsistent behavior is what is causing this distress. it seems like rather than containing your emotions your T is causing you further distress. i appreciate that she is trying to rectify her mistake but even that seems to be causing you much distress.

The first half of your post sounded to me like your therapist may have been trying to show you that you have her support, in which case paying her back without her asking may be a rejection of that support.

However, by the end of your post I grew concerned. While I agree that this isn't a good way of handling conflict and while I think a therapist's comment can help you see how other people ight also perceive your actions, I worry about your freedom to be yourself in therapy after being given so much for free. This is exactly the reason why therapists aren't supposed to bend over backwards and accommodate clients for free on the long term or give significant gifts etc. Her generosity is lovely, but only as long as you are still welcome to therapy with all of your frustration, anger, and whatever else you may be feeling. Therapy is supposed to be a safe place where you can look at your impulses and emotions and explore them, not a relationship in which you "owe" the therapist for favors.

Now, you're the one who's there and only you can know what's best for you and what's feasable in your situation. Would you feel freer if you gave the money back? Would you want to continue with this therapist, whether or not you give the money back? I think an open discussion about options would be best here, if you are willing and able to trust your therapist with this.

I would think of it like with what she was doing on the phone last year?

http://forums.psychcentral.com/psych...truggling.html

I don't know that she wants you to pay her back or if that needs to be an issue with you, I think she was just illustrating that "action" is important, slamming doors says something just like giving therapy for free does. She not only says she cares but she acts like it, she's "congruent". It is good, important, and "right" to be angry with someone, however we feel is always "right" because it is our feelings and they just "are" but there are better ways to treat/actions to take with someone you care about?

You're not blah blah-ing at all! Thank you for your reply and the bit in bold, the way you have described going into talking about the money is very good and how I'd like to do it next time it crops up.

I don't want to leave her. Not now or ever. But I get terrified and suspicious with regularity, and petrified that I'm being weak and hanging onto her desperately even though it isn't quite right.

I know people say listen to your gut, etc, but my gut is no good at this stuff. My heart loves her a whole lot, my head thinks it's worthwhile and absolutely the right thing about 75% of the time on average, and my gut is selectively mute on the matter.

In fairness too I know she doesn't solely think the therapeutic alliance is the only thing that matters. She will call upon examples of my current relationships and point stuff out about them about my behaviours in them, in effort to help me.

I believe this to be true. However, I still am not that sure that part of her doesn't resent the fact she poured so much of her own resources into me and I had the gall to not improve in leaps and bounds. She's human, it'd be an understandable reaction. I think it can be possible that I irritate her for this reason at times, while it is also true that she genuinely does use mention of the money as an earnest attempt to give me real 'evidence' that she cares. I don't doubt that she cares.

We have talked several times about paying it forward. There is something I can do professionally that would be of benefit to a charity that means a lot to her (great idea I got from a wonderful poster here on PC) that we have agreed I would do when the timing is right. I want to do this anyway. But she wants me to be in a stronger place before I take on any more stuff.

I feel an urge to pay this £3k back because this is the money she actually spent which makes me if I think about it. Cold hard cash from her own pocket.

FKM, can I ask what the bit I bolded means? Have re-read several times and not sure I am grasping it correctly. Is it kind of about her over-extending herself? How do boundaries function? Sorry to be slow-witted, but boundaries confuse me I think, apart from on a basic level where they function to outline our comfort zones.

Do you really think she's incompetent? I know she has an amazing track record helping loads of other people, so it can't be her, it must be me. I feel like she almost gave me special 'privileges', took them away after a while as she was perfectly entitled to do, and I am struggling badly over that when things hit a wall.

Yes, I am very conflicted. Most of the time I don't worry about it that much, but every second or third session some unbearable pain gets hold of me and I don't know which way is up. It's literally terrifying. It probably does warp my view and how I relate the interaction, and then as initial searing pain and mega tension starts to lessen, I can probably 'see' more aspects that I add to subsequent posts that give a more fleshed out picture. I honestly do not mean to be drip-feeding or trying to manipulate people's responses on here though.

I didn't read your post as critical at all

Thank you. Yes, I do have concerns I can't be fully real in all my wretched misery when it strikes. It struck in the last session - when she was saying I can't take in care, and I suddenly was hit by the realisation that it could all be my fault that my relationship with my birth mother is hard, that she could be trying and I could just always be ****ing it up, that I must be a sociopath if that was the case - and I panicked. I started to speak about it, to ask, and she said no she wasn't going to do it, wasn't going to indulge my pattern. I felt so gagged, and desperately disturbed.

These are all good points, she is congruent, she is still there, she is still saying she loves me. I know actions are important, I have never, ever done anything like slamming the door before. I have never displayed any anger towards her before. Not that that means it's okay just the once.

Thank you all for the insight, and sorry it took ages for me to get a chance to read and appreciate your thoughts and opinions, I have so much on with work I don't get as much time to think anymore as I would like.

So grateful to you all

FKM, can I ask what the bit I bolded means? Have re-read several times and not sure I am grasping it correctly. Is it kind of about her over-extending herself? How do boundaries function? Sorry to be slow-witted, but boundaries confuse me I think, apart from on a basic level where they function to outline our comfort zones.

Do you really think she's incompetent? I know she has an amazing track record helping loads of other people, so it can't be her, it must be me. I feel like she almost gave me special 'privileges', took them away after a while as she was perfectly entitled to do, and I am struggling badly over that when things hit a wall.

I think "over-extending" or over-compensating is a good way to explain it. We see boundaries in action through behaviors. But psychologically boundaries exist, as you've said, to protect our comfort zones. I think there are good reasons to cross boundaries, but those aren't done to self-protect. When I've read about ways therapy goes wrong, over-compensation shown through boundary crossings is rather common. Progression to boundary violations is much less common. Explanations about why Ts might over-compensate are similar to why anyone over-compensates: feelings of situational incompetence, low self-esteem, a need to be successful, seeking approval, etc.

So it isn't general incompetence, but discomfort within certain parameters. It isn't about who's right and who's wrong, but rather constellations of unconscious minds bouncing off each other. I think the biggest challenge for a T is being intellectually and psychologically clear enough to be able to monitor those interactions and the emotional ripples they create. Supervision helps to do that. It just feels to me in this case that there's a ripple from the interaction of your issue of suspicion and some need in her to prove your suspicion wrong that gets played out in an unproductive way. It doesn't mean progress isn't real, and that more progress isn't possible going forward. But I think this ripple will continue to reappear.

No counselor is effective with everyone. If she doesn't work sufficiently effectively with you, there is no need or reason to blame yourself.